User talk:Quincy/Assassin, Assassin's Creed Variant (5e Class)

Assassin's Robes

What's up with the Assassin Robes this class grants? The robes are marked as being unbalanced currently, so I was thinking of rebalancing them. But all they do is cost more and grant extra AC, and what's the point of balancing by cost if it's granted for free? Unless someone has an idea for making the robes stand out, I think the robes should be deleted, and this class should grant vanilla armor with some SRD robes to wear over it. I'd do it myself, but from the edit history of the Assassin's Robes, it looks like there's lots of people pulling in different directions. Figured we should get some consensus before I join in. Oportet (talk) 14:29, 29 December 2016 (MST)

Questions/Concernc

• The Creed #1-Would it be okay to be an outcast of the order instead and they strip of your belongings until you repent/atone for your actions? I feel this could reveal plot details sooner than a DM would like to.
• Assassination-maybe get a column on the table for this? personally, not a fan of the change in damage die type either but meh. I see it ties into the rank structure so okay I guess.
• Assassin Initiate-what if I use another weapon? It doesn't go against the creed.
• Prayer for the Dead-if monster's are the exception why do you get full benefits??
• Fighting Style-

• Single Blade-Finesse Fighting instead? Why not use Dueling? What is the need for a +2 bonus to attacks?
• Stealthy Fighter-Does this stack with Assassination then? YIKES!!! with this you should hide as a bonus action just makes sense. Like the blend feature in the assassin creed games
• Hand to Hand-Again, what is the need for +2 to hit? 5e has a new attack economy and that +2 is huge at level 2. I support the 1d6.
• Bombs-

• Datura-I think it's uncommon for a creature to take poison damage based on how much movement they made through the cloud. 1d6 is enough and if they start or end their turn (choose one, usually start) they take another 1d6.
• Splinter-what about this bomb makes the damage scale? Do you learn to pack the shrapnel better? Is the shrapnel a higher quality so it hurts more? I'm against it scaling so that's why all the questions.

• Eagle Vision-OP. Why does this class need True Sight at all times? To top it off, advantage on perception checks. Extra 30' darkvision too if you already got it? I saw in edits Kydo say darkvision is fine. I'd agree. gain darkvision 30' and if you already got it, then increase by 30'. hell, make it see in darkness if you want? not true sight. not yet.
• Harmful Strike-when do I deal an extra 1d6 damage? I assume unarmed attacks?
• Leap of Faith-I like this, but, if I fall 300' just DC 15? DC could = half the falling damage? an idea....
• Instinctive Defense-use the wording from Gladiator in MM. the Parry feature they have.
• Second Hand-Is all damage halved?
• Air Assasination-Why DC 16? The victim was targeted. DC=your attack roll? (I don't know if my idea is fair/balanced)
• The Greatest Weapon-Something doesn't feel right. It's Hide in Plain Sight just renamed and the extra dice seem to much. I could see rerolling 1s on damage dice or +1 damage to damage dice (so +5 damage when dealing 5d10) I don't know though. Like I said, this feature just seems off with normal D&D style features.
• Codex Teachings-extra ability score increases aren't really a common thing. I'd reduce these to +1 if you insist on having them.

• Altair-more additional die for hidden blade. good grief!
• Ezio-does this stack with Single Blade? Now its +6 to hit?
• Achilles-I will emphasize the +1 to abilities with this feature. I think this teaching might be fair if so.
• Connor-Why wield anything other than your hidden blades?
• Arno-I fixed it elsewhere, and its mentioned elsewhere, Expertise is not a keyword. You need to type out the doubling of prof bonus.

• Strength in Brotherhood-I'd include more stats with this.
• Running Assassination-I know you had the requirement of 15' minimum to use this feature but I thought that bogged it down. It's simply part of a Dash. The problem though, you can Dash as a bonus action. then use your action to Dash too, if I recall right. So, two Assassinations + your movement still. eek. I don't agree that you don't have to be hidden for this. I think that rule should still apply. Bonus action to hide, action to Dash/Assassination.
• Improved Eagle Vision-When is this not active? Another mention on Expertise. What's the point of mentioning Traps and treasures?
• Arrow Storm-If you're traveling the flat, flat, very flat grasslands and no one is in site, where the hell do these arrows come from? I saw you're class before and this feature frustrated me more than most other things on this site.
• Master Assassin-What is complete influence? martial weapon proficiency? are you *** kidding me? Why wouldn't I multiclass into fighter? One level of fighter is better than this level 20 feature. I suggest fixing this.
• Archetypes-there are none. I suggest taking some of those class features (theres a TON) and using them for archetypes. You've packed a lot into this class and some things could be trimmed. If I didn't mention something, I really like it or its balanced. usually both. Good luck. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:08, 11 September 2017 (MDT)

When did I mention anything about Darkvision? I don't disagree, but I also don't remember. --Kydo (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2017 (MDT)

Oh man. I rechecked and it UmbraLux talking about "Eagle Eyes" being okay at level 3. So Kydo :/ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:16, 13 September 2017 (MDT)

• Assassination and Damage Output: I did read the Balance Issue. All I'm going to say is: a Design Disclaimer may be necessary, as in order to keep up with the different creatures players may encounter the Hidden Blade's damage output does need to go up with them. Because a weapon notorious for its ability to kill any target in one fell swoop suddenly dealing scratch damage to anything that isn't human would make the concept questionable.
• Creed 1: I feel that this is a mix of both Player, and DM decision, much like specific background details. While I will admit most of my knowledge does stem from Assassin's Creeds 1, 2, Brotherhood and Revelations, they do provide a good launch point. Now, the only one who really started that way was Altair in AC1. Because he broke all 3 Creeds at once, he was stripped of his rank, equipment, and respect (which was a bit bigger in his times). Thus, I suppose it's both or either DM and/or Player's suggestion on this topic. It's a bit difficult to touch, in all honestly.
• Assassin's Rank and Equipment: This was a bit based off of Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, and a bit of thinking. Essentially, why is it that Ezio has access to, and utilizing all these weapons when Altair could have used them, but didn't? Aside from actual developmental reasons (AC1 is kinda...blegh compared to recent games in the series) and an in-universe explanation of the Animus tech used by Abstergo which couldn't handle it (like Altair's swimming, apparently), I wanted a solid reason to allow the Assassin access to different weapons, yet not allow them all at once. The wording could be better at this point so as to make it clear that you're trained, thus you gain proficiency with (weapon/s) to use the weapons. that way, it will be possible to allow the Assassin character to use what they want, but because they don't have proficiency at the earlier ranks, have a chance of flubbing use. Of course, this would conflict with the above point of "Started as an Outcast," or "Stripped of Rank" as a starting point, as they would, logically, have knowledge of those weapons. Though it can be a bit messy when it comes to specific details like that...
• Fighting Styles: All I really did was do a bit of clean-up. Splinter Bombs could be based on, from Revelations, the type of powder used to release them. In Revelations (Where the Bomb style originates from), you could use either a powder that keeps the explosion contained to a smaller area, and meant to minimize possible damage to civilians, a middle ground powder that balances range, area of effect, and damage, and a fairly powerful powder that covers a wider range and a slightly bigger blast, but could make getting through some traps not as easy. Since those are specific details, we might have to cut it to a middle ground, and maybe make the suggestion of an additional Homebrew rule for diferent setups for the bombs, but that's just me.
• Eagle Vision, and the Improved variant: This, I'll admit is a bit of a tricky subject. Darkvision was a given, as it does make traversing some areas easier when it's fairly dark in the AC games. The slight issue is that it feels like even standard Eagle Vision does take on qualities of Truesight, but since having it early can be an issue in D&D....Since playing through Revelations, I was thinking of modifying the initial "Vision" to be "while Eagle Vision is active, gain Darkvision; or enhance range if you already have it, gain advantage on Perception checks only when looking for Traps, Hidden Items, People, and Treasures." while upgrading the later-level version to "Eagle Sense" where it gives Truesight proper, and maybe advantage on Medical Checks (Ezio was able to see a person's heartbeat in Revelations) as well as adding Double Proficiency for Perception checks while active. Of course, there is the slight issue/question of "what defines activating and deactivating it?" I was thinking of making it an Interaction (as characters can pretty much turn this on/off on a whim). But then why not leave it on? Especially in a game where that sort of thing is better to leave on? Well, it could be offset by dropping Passive Perception to 0, making it a bit more troublesome to navigate any area while active, as the scenery (Buildings, trees, even non-important people) and backgrounds can blend together.
• Greatest Weapon: Hmm...Probably was done so that way there wasn't a dead level in the page?
• Second Hand: Okay, this is a bit of a mixed bag. In-game, the second blade deals the same amount of damage as the main hand. But if you used two Hidden Blades on one target in D&D, that could lead to the potential of ending the BBEG quickly and easily. But then, when you get Double Assassination kills in the games, both targets are easily killed, and if ALL damage was halved in D&D, then that could leave the potential for pulling a Double Assassination, but one target lives and then it wouldn't be a double assassination. But then again, if the target takes Fatal Damage from ONE Assassination, then I suppose the need for a second would be negated...
• Codex Teachings:

• Altair: He was one of the few people who pretty much pioneered the teachings of the modern assassins. Plus, in his time it was easier to emphasize stealth, as it was a bit easier to blend through crowds and be in and out of an area.
• Ezio: I can understand this, with a bit more experience under the belt. I suppose we could modify it to a different idea of "weapons that do not have the Two-handed, Ranged and/or Heavy properties are treated as if they have the Finesse property, if they do not already have it." to emphasize the idea of the fact he was in the Renisanse, and perhaps a nod to the streamlined combat aspects of AC2 onwards.
• Connor: Well, the weapon and the Assassination (and its variants on the page) only grant the increased damage while undr the effects of Stealth. If an enemy knows you have Hidden Blades on you, they'll only deal a significantly reduced amount of damage and will not gain benefits of the Assassination skill.

• Strength in the Brotherhood: I was debating making a separate page for the Assassins, to allow for this and to not clutter this page up. And with a separate page, could allow for a bit more expansion on available actions on that page as well.
• Arrow Storm: Believe it or not, this can happen in Brotherhood. There are a few wide-open areas with no places to hide and a few guards you need to off. You can legitimately call an arrow storm and rid the guards even though there's no practical hiding spots. While this could be a game-play-convinience deal, I suppose that comes down to DM rulings in those situations. I mean, there are areas where Ezio does travel into dungeons and areas where his Assassins can't get to, thus you can't call on the Guild. So it could be a thing that a DM take a logical step and applies that logic to areas where there isn't discernible hiding spots.
• Master Assassin: Essentially, you have the capability of starting your own, or otherwise taking over a branch of the Assassin Brotherhood. While this does open a lot of floodgates, it's at least an interesting blend of Role-playing functions alongside an attempt of having a systematic function. As for Martial Weapon Proficiency, I was, again, trying to make a functional detail of weaponry after playing through the franchise recently. But if I just added "Martial Weapon Proficiency" to the baseline skills, wouldn't that have made this a practical combination of Rouge and Fighter? Which is what I'm worried about looking over the page again.
• Archetypes: It's hard to really define "Archetypes" when the source material doesn't really have much to define as "archetypes" to begin with.

Nightmares are dreams too... (talk) 04:09, 14 September 2017 (MDT)

I'm not sure how playable a class will be, design disclaimer or not, with an insta-kill weapon. I don't see how a topic is hard to touch when you are the designer of something. There's no other rendition of AC character in a D20 setting. You can make "anything" flavorful and balanced. The weapons issue is really messy. You are suggesting rewording I highly recommend that or make this a campaign specific class. Because as mentioned on the level 20 feature, a level 1 fighter has better gains that this. I don't think homebrew classes should be reliant on homebrew rules. I can't recall class guidelines but I think it should be a bullet point if not already. No other mention of other issues with fighting styles. Make Eagle Vision a "charge" ability then, but still hold off on true sight. Dead levels are okay and I encourage them. I can see a class with no spells or archetypes needing no dead levels, but that doesn't address the design issue (in my head design issue). I am just curious if Second Hand halved for the second blade or all damage from that attack. How does someone knowing what weapon you have make the damage negated? But instead of making a separate page for assassins we have a vague description. Just expand on it imo. I get arrows out of nowhere in a video game but in D&D where players like logic (despite magic and monsters) arrows springing from no where just is a challenge. You don't need the MAster assassin to roleplay a guild leader, and yeah it's close to rogue/fighter mash up but the flavor is here to not feel that way. It just needs balance. Which, a lot of this seems like background vs facing the music Assassin Creed assassin isn't balanced, is tagged unbalanced and something has to give. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:44, 17 September 2017 (MDT)

In terms of gameplay, the balance works out. When it comes down to doing the math, an Assassination does have the potential of eliminating enemies around the player's level. A Lv. 1 Assassin has the capability of offing a Goblin with ease, but against tougher enemies, it's legit dealing scratch damage. Note Capability. On top of that, the video game's main antagonists are normal humans, and being able to OHKO those targets is justified by hitting their vitals. But in D&D, we're regulating that to a dice roll. Even with Advantage, there is a chance of Failure. As for the whole "Reduced damage when an the weapon is revealed," there's still real logic behind that. If I hide a regular dagger on my person and smuggle it into an area where I'm forced to disarm of ALL weapons, then I have the potential of dealing a surprise stab and even possibly killing someone because no one knows I have it, except me. But once it's revealed that I have the dagger, the element of surprise is lost. Now my enemies know I have a weapon and can avoid damage from the weapon. This also does play out a bit in the games where if you use the Hidden Blade as a normal attack, guards can actively block and avoid attacks; even moreso in "Revelations," with Janissaries (Elite Soldiers) who are immune to the Hidden Blade's Instakill Counter-Attacks, outside of getting an Assassination from stealth.

Looking around at Truesight, how about this: You suggested making Eagle Vision a "Charge" ability. That means there's going to be a limit on it between Eagle Vision uses. If it's kept to where TrueSight is tied to getting it at Level 17 with the "Eagle Sense" ability, it's still under the same rules as the previous incarnation. Provided for materials, most spellcasters of the same level have the potential of casting the True Seeing Spell at least 4 times a day, meaning 4 Hours. So, in order to create a balance, let's have Eagle Vision essentially have a charge time of hours per day tied to the Constitution Modifier and needing concentration to activate, and keep active which requires an Acion to do if one tries to use Eagle Vision in the iddle of a battle (which ties into the AC games, where getting hit once automatically deactivates Eagle Vision.) If you have a +3 CON bonus, you can use Eagle Vision for a total of 3 hours per day, and resets after a Long Rest. I am also slightly trying to figure out how to word it so where it's based on the concept of being able to trigger nearly at-will, and having the total time for that day add up until you reach the total time limit. If an example is needed, I can only have it active for 3 Hours, because my CON mod is +3. When I Concentrate, I activate Eagle Vision, and I keep it activated for 2 hours, then deactivate it because I saw what I needed and don't need it for a while. Then, after traveling deeper into an area, I suspect there might be a trap, so I use Eagle Vision again, and it takes me a full hour to see all the traps there are. Combined with the time I used it previously, I hit 3 hours and cannot use it again till I finish a Long Rest. This can also work, even if the CON modifier is +5, because it requires concentration. And that concentration breaks when you take HP damage. This can stil keep an inherent balance, as if the assassin is facing a mage, the mage can cast a cantrip like Sacred Flame. Win or Loss, the Assassin takes damage regardless and their concentration breaks, and if they had illusions, merely join close together and do a disorientation jig to confuse the party again. I feel that the system could work, as the only detail that might push it is having a +5 CON at Lv. 17 and using it for 1 hour more. Plus, at the same time, around the 16-20 levels, you're already nearing the end-game levels.

In terms of making it a setting-specific class, I'm not the original author. And from the looks of it, they haven't been around for a while. I'm merely doing the house keeping. And from the looks of things, it seems like the class wasn't designed for anything specific, else the original creator might have put something to indicate the role. It would also explain the Hidden Blade's damage increasing at specific levels at you "climb through the Assassin Ranks": since you do have the potential of facing enemies that are more than humans, or are facing humans with more HP than typical in D&D, the Hidden Blade needs to keep damage close to the increasing HP needs of enemies alongside Assassination. If Assassination didn't outright kill the target, it at least wounded the target (or maybe they aren't as badly wounded as expected, depending on what the damage says. I actually did some math on the Hidden Blade's damage output when the dice rolls are at their minimum, maximum, and Crit's Min and Maximum.) Which, in it's own right is slightly more balanced for D&D, as it makes it to a point to where it's chance as opposed to the actual game's definitive.

For Arrow Storm, I was actually agreeing with you. In fact I did say, "...Ezio does travel into dungeons and areas where his Assassins can't get to, thus you can't call on the Guild. So it could be a thing that a DM take a logical step and applies that logic to areas where there isn't discernible hiding spots." Unless you want to make an essential wording where munchkins won't try to abuse the "Anywhere" caveat.

Okay, I'll admit blame for Second Hand wording in my previous post. Unless ruling is in agreement that the Halved Damage does not apply when attempting Double Assassinations, I would say the second Hidden Blade deals normal damage in every situation. Again, if you want to see the rough numbers I did in order to have a bit of reason for it, I can post them up.

I was merely thinking of a separate page for the Brotherhood Assassin merely for quicker reference, and having the stat blocks in a neatly organized page would be better than what this page has them down as. I'm perfectly willing to expand upon them first, with the option of a second page being there in case things get too cluttered.

I get the whole Starting equipment deal, but I prefer to deal with things in a specific order. I prefer features and abilities to be cleaned up first so that the major issues are dealt with quickly and the page can be usable again. I get the idea of ideas being cut for balance, but sometimes good ideas can go to waste, so I try to find an inherent balance with the system while keeping ideas in tact. Unless some abilities just don't work, or could be sorted with other abilities.

Nightmares are dreams too... (talk) 02:21, 18 September 2017 (MDT)

I don't think you are listening. One person has wiped their hands of this and every question is met with a wall of text. It's clear this is meant for a specific campaign but what about rogue assassin creed assassins that come after the PCs? Would you enjoy a OHKO? There is no logic that a hidden weapon does more damage than a revealed weapon. There is logic that someone would be easier to hit if they weren't expecting a weapon. But nothing about a hidden weapon makes it sturdier or sharper. They can't avoid damage but they can avoid being hit. Don't mix the ideas because mechanically they are different. You're trying to balance Eagle Vision but it's a muddle of stuff. Can you simplify it? Features can be impactful and creative without needing half a page of text. I thought I had a great balance idea for it, but you're class. It's inferred this is campaign specific since it doesn't fit normal confines of DnD. Scaling damage in order to one-shot an enemy is no where on another class. I see you are housekeeping then house keep fairly with PCs in mind. If I send 1-2 of these things, dead party man. I don't want to be a player that tries to use something and the DM says you can't because it doesn't make sense. Put it in the ability that the feature doesn't work under ground or in the plains. It functions only in urban environments. It clears things right up. Same with Second Hand, needs re-written for clarity. right now, if hidden aka Stealth, you can do 1d8+3d6+str/dex modifier with main hidden blade then other hidden blade is the same but halved. Then, extra attack allows one more attack, so 1d8+str/dex. There's other class features that can increase this damage too. I don't need to see numbers to know this doesn't match SRD. Rogues get sneak attack, once per turn. try to match that. If you can't stay close to SRD, then the goal isn't to play fair. I could see a separate 5e homebrew monster page for this. I think one way or the other would be good. I don't think you are trying to find inherent balance by the conversation we've had. Continually defending this classes ability to OHKO and be better than others at similar level. I suggest a deep long look at this class and what is flavorful or not. I understand it isn't fun to sacrifice great ideas and them go to waste but it happens for the sake of balance. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:40, 21 September 2017 (MDT)

Okay, hold the presses. I accidentally, somehow fudged up numbers in my initial run for doing them. Since fixing them, I noticed one thing. For one, the Assassination damage on average is much weaker than a Rouge's Sneak Attack, both using Lv. 20 dice. Essentially, the numbers looked like this:

Assassinate (Lv. 20)- [5d10: 5-50] [Crit: 10-100] [Average Damage:Normal 27, Crit 55]

Sneak Attack (Lv. 20)- [10d6: 10-60] [Crit: 20-120] [Average Damage: Normal 35, Crit 70]

See, the original Hidden Blade that was created for the class was eventually deleted due to not being refined enough, and the slight implications was that it only got a damage boost based on the level. But since the original was deleted, I added the other Hidden Blade to at least make it look nicer. And since reviewing the numbers, something looked off between the old numbers I had and the new numbers I was getting. The Hidden Blade the current page links to, As Written, states that on a Hit to add 3 dice to the weapon damage. That means that when attacking from Stealth, the weapon itself is hidden and you get a good hit, the damage (using the Lv. 20 as a base at least) means the damage becomes 4d12 (Hidden Blade, successfully hidden)+ 5d10 (Assassination, From Stealth only) bumps the numbers above a Rouge's output. Something I forgot about until recently. And my error was that I accidentally added one die more than what was actually listed on the page and inflating the numbers a bit. (So instead of 4d6 at Lv. 10 for assassination, I was accidentally inputting 5d6. My mistake completely.) Actually, side question about the Rouge's Sneak Attack: can it actually trigger if, say a party member goes close to attack an enemy? Conceptually, a party member would technically fit the "Enemy of the target" bill, so if the party is withing 5 ft of the Rouge's target, would Sneak Attack trigger? If not, then I need to re-evaluate how that worked in all my previous sessions...

SO, damage output and random musing aside; For Arrow Storm, I was more or less just asking "Should I actually clear it up, then?" because in that situation, I agreed with you. Yet you're retorting back "But if it logically can't work, then it should say so!" And then I bang my head against the wall for another hour.

Part of the reason for the Talk Page is to discuss issues and how to fix them. I'm here trying to give an input on what I want to do to try and clean it up, and you're saying that I shouldn't write a paragraph as the fix. Yeah, I got that a long time ago, but is what I suggested a good idea for a fix? If so, I'd like some help cleaning it up so it DOESN'T take a paragraph. If not, I'm willing to toss ideas around till we can get something working. For instance, I suggested making Eagle Vision last hours equal to your CON. Modifier; requires concentration to activate and deactivate, and is automatically disabled when you take damage; once the limit is reached, it needs a Long Rest to recover usage, and I gave an example of how I wanted it to work. As for Second Hand, I would suggest limiting the damage it deals to half of the main hand's attack, but this is ignored when using Assassination on two separate targets, and only on two targets so that way someone doesn't try to truly overkill using two blades at once via Assassination.

Nightmares are dreams too... (talk) 22:35, 21 September 2017 (MDT)