Talk:Weapon Summoner (3.5e Class)

Formatting

The tables at the beginning are messed up, and the descriptions are a bit wordy. I'll be more concise about the wording later, but as far as formatting, this is a 1 until it matches the preload. --Ganre 09:20, 7 November 2011 (MST)

Rating

Power - 2.5/5 I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because all over i think this is a nice class. --Caim Frostheart 13:56, 18 January 2011 (MST)

This page has been changed and this rating is no longer applicable. --Green Dragon 00:53, 7 January 2012 (MST)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because A few typos, but mostly due to your keyboard having been on low power earlier today. --Caim Frostheart 13:56, 18 January 2011 (MST)

This page has been changed and this rating is no longer applicable. --Green Dragon 00:53, 7 January 2012 (MST)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because the class is setup nicely and is easy to read though, and understand. --Caim Frostheart 13:56, 18 January 2011 (MST)

This page has been changed and this rating is no longer applicable. --Green Dragon 00:53, 7 January 2012 (MST)

Flavor - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because over all i like the class and the idea, and its something new and original --Caim Frostheart 13:56, 18 January 2011 (MST)

This page has been changed and this rating is no longer applicable. --Green Dragon 00:53, 7 January 2012 (MST)

Recent Changes

I thank Green Dragon for helping me with the bonus feat list even though I didn't ask ;). But I have spotted that some of the feats give the same bonus like Accurate Attack and Attack Focus. There are others with so little difference that they might at well be the same. I wont edit that since Green Dragon is currently handling that apparently, and some of the feats are user made and dose work.

Also I have been juggling with the suggestion of adding a spell list and spells per day. Some have suggested making him a secondary caster like the ranger and paladin. Any thought on these suggestions? Personally I have been looking at adding a list of level 0 and 1 spell that can be chosen as at will spells every 5-6 levels, or just making the weapon storage ability into a trait with the "Cast 0 level arcane spells" and without the weapon proficiency requirement. Thoughts? --ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 11:32, 1 January 2012 (MST)

I will look for repeats in the feats. I have been trying to make sure to find them all. The two you listed above are for hitting and damage (the wording "to hit" on Accurate Attack is not on Attack Focus). Do you know of others which are like that?

I was actually thinking about adding three things

1. A very small amount of spells (less then the bard maybe) which relate to weapons and a familiar based off Weapon Familiar.
2. A domain to bring them a little away from weapons (divine with a familiar like in The Quintessential Witch).
3. The weapon modifying abilities added based off the bard's bardic music.

I think this, along with something like the assassin's death attack but for a class should cover what was here previously. This is what I was thinking about, thoughts? --Green Dragon 14:25, 1 January 2012 (MST)

For some reason I do not like the idea of making him a divine spell caster, and a lot of the spells you have chosen are not purely weapon specific. I could just as well make a 4e swordmage conversion for the 3.5e rules. The weapon summoner is meant to be an arcane caster as his magical powers are self taught and comes from his internal magic instead of external magic given by a deity. (This is from my understanding of the differences between arcane and divine) I would suggest going over the weapon enchantment list and add those as spells that last X number of rounds and their enchantment cost is the "spell" level.

I will agree that his list of spells should be small but I was thinking he should work as a wizard with a spellbook. He learns 1 spell every level from when he can can cast spells but can copy and add spells from other weapon summoners books or study enchanted weapons to learn their enchantments and add be able to cast them him self. Actually the last idea is brilliant in my opinion. This functions nicely with the lore that they search for ancient magical weapons with strange enchantments.

Your suggestion for a death attack dose not sit well with me :/. My intentions for the Weapon Summoner was a support character that enhanced the party and not doing much of the actual slaughter him self. Like the bard is meant to boost the party through song and competence bonuses, I had envisioned the weapon summoner specking the party for a particular opponent every time they entered combat. I have played a few games where the GM set the party up against a monster that the party could handle with difficulty but with the right weapons it would be a lot easier, and this was where the weapon summoner was meant to come in. Delivering the right weapons and enchanting them to become better, and as a added bonus be able to "debuff" the monster if it used weapons.

So fare your additions have tilted the weapon summoner further towards being something like the Cleric who has a definitive support role but can easily out do the fighter in regards to tanking and melee damage dealing. Note that I am flexible, and with the right arguments are willing to change my ideas. This class is not 100% done yet so lets see where we end :). As a side note I am very fond of "at will" abilities like the warlocks eldric blast and would prefer if spell casting for the weapon summoner could lean in that direction. --ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 23:33, 2 January 2012 (MST)

Arcane is fine too. I just wanted something to divert the attention of the weapon summoner away from weapons (or things which will effect his swordmanship abilities). Do you think this is a good thing to do, or will it happen in any case?

I don't know what you mean by "I would suggest going over the weapon enchantment list and add those as spells that last X number of rounds and their enchantment cost is the 'spell' level".

I actually was planning on making his spellbook (spell list, etc) only include things which effect his swordmanship abilities. Do you not feel that this is a good idea?

I was actually thinking about the assassin's death attack to continue the possibility of combat inference and stealing weapons. This is currently done through Calculating Fighter and Arcane Armory. Would you rather just scrap this idea? I feel that it fits since it gives him an edge in swordsmanship in times of off-combat as well.

I intended the spells to only include things which effect his swordmanship abilities. Thoughts? --Green Dragon 01:28, 3 January 2012 (MST)

I think you are focusing a bit too much on the swordman build of the weapon summoner :) . He is suppose to use ALL weapons not just swords. I am currently play-testing him as a ranged character with a repeater crossbow, and the only low level problem i have is that most creatures resist my Command Weapon ability. But making an Ogre one shot him self with his huge club was well worth it xD . Also sins most of his class features are spell like they are still subjected to spell failure which is deliberate. I do not want him to be able to wear heavy armor and cast spells with out a penalty. I know the Cleric can be made a deadly spellcaster but he is also extremely beefy when thrown into a full plate (which he can wear from level 1 if I remember correctly).

Okay I think that with the core features (Arcane Armory, Calculating Fighter and Command Weapon) the weapon summoner will instinctively balance between weapon use and casting. As long as the rest of the party compensates for the lack of heavy damage in the first 3-5 rounds.

With weapons enchantment list I was talking about this list and this list. Personally I use 3.5 Edition Index–Magic Items–Weapons & Armor pdf by crystalkeep.com/d20 as it is much longer and more complete. But anyway my idea was that in stead of specific spells from the arcane or divine spell list he would have a "Book of weapon enchantments" containing all the weapon enchantments he can cast on weapons. So that he will not take the role of party wizard or cleric. I guess you are not done with the complete spell list so just continue with it for now but only use SRD spells. I know there are a lot of homebrew spells that would also fit but the only spells I am interested in are spells like Bless, Bane, Align Weapon and so on.

Every time you say swordmanship ability I understand it as his ability to fit the role of the party fighter. I was aiming for the same role as the bard (just being more useful then the bard in my opinion). Currently he has the knowledge and the support abilities with Specialized Knowledge and the Command Weapon "help" order.

After reading up on the assassin's death attack I actually like the idea. So if I understand you correctly you want him to observe for x rounds and then without a save steal, sunder or disarm an opponent? or just crack the planet in two and bring forth Armageddon? (ignore last joke) --ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 02:42, 3 January 2012 (MST)

Oh yes it is about all weapons. I will re-look over things. I thought it was more about melee combat for some reason.

You may be right about balancing between spells and weapons. I will change it to arcane. Additionally, I am not done with the spell list.

If you have an improvement for Command Weapon by all means add it. I am still uncertain exactly what I wanted to do there except make it more like Bardic Music.

When I said "his swordsmanship abilities" I meant that through helping an ally take down an opponent he would also be benefited. I have not been trying to get rid of his support role. --Green Dragon 13:24, 3 January 2012 (MST)

Sorry for not answering sooner. Got caught in another round of IP banning -_-

I like some of the thing you have done to my class (though there is not much left of my original content to pin my claim on :P) except one thing. The kill attack that replaces calculating fighter. I can see it would boost the classes much needed damage output, but I feel like i am looking at an assassin class not a weapon support class :(. Could you add the old calculating fighter instead? I preferred the increased survivability to the instant kill. Maybe instead of the Wis modifier as the max then just have the cap raise with level? every 4th or 5th level maybe?

Also seeing as your rewording and working of much of the old class features "feels" much more D&D 3.5e when read then my old stuff. How would you suggest I handle the Command weapon system? I am adamant that is should be part of the class but every time I try to word or go over it in my head I run into the same constant problem. balance and level scaling?

Ranged disarm/sunder, high penalties de-buffs to opponent and such is what i aim for but cant make it feel or work like core D&D 3.5e features :(

--ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 17:35, 6 January 2012 (MST)

Just noticed you have also removed the "bardic knowledge" feature i added :/. You did not think it was appropriate? How is the class now going to identify what weapon is best suited for the opponent? More skill points and knowledge class skills? Thought? --ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 19:03, 6 January 2012 (MST)

I see what you mean about Death Attack and Calculating Fighter. For the handling of Calculating Fighter maybe we could just change the death attack to give bonuses instead of assassinesque qualities? I just don't see how tanking relates to weapons, but I agree with what you are saying as well.

What Bardic Knowledge class feature are you talking about? I didn't see one in the history. --Green Dragon 00:53, 7 January 2012 (MST)

I am refering to Specialized Knowledge.--ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 16:47, 9 January 2012 (MST)

• Specialized Knowledge (Ex): A weapons summoner may make a special Armament knowledge check with a bonus equal to his summoner level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about monsters, legendary weapons, or noteworthy places. (If the summoner has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.) If he is researching a subject that is weapon related he gains a +8 to his roll.

In regards to the Calculating fighter we could lower the max amount and increase the number of rounds needed to observe before a usable bonus appears. The primary reason I want to have a survivability feature is to compensate for the missing mage armor and spell failure. A mage cant even wear light armor. (was going to use the excuse that bards also have magic armor spell but looked it up... they don't -.-)

They do get legend lore eventually which I considered the substitute for Specialized Knowledge. In addition they have numerous spell possibilities to accomplish roughly the same ends earlier on.

They also do get mage armor, although I see what you mean that they are vulnerable. I made Calculating Fighter work after a standard action attack. The increase in defense is a magical connection to his weapons and it accomplishes the same ends as far as I can tell. --Green Dragon 00:08, 15 January 2012 (MST)

Okay I had not seen the mage armor sorry.

I do not quite understand how this works: "The standard action attack immediately after initially determining initiative gives him a +1 dodge bonus to his AC"

Dose this mean I have to attack the target to get the bonus or is it just a standard action? If the summoner gets mage armor I do not mind scraping Calculating fighter for some other feature. --ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 15:20, 15 January 2012 (MST)

Similar Feats

I will keep adding to this list as I find them. I am currently going through the bonus feat list and seeing which I think fit and which do not. So fare this is the only ones i have made notice of.

• Reach Weapon Fighting and Near and Far feats do almost the same thing though Reach Weapon Fighting is the most powerful of them.
• Swing for the Fences and Awesome Blow do the exact same thing with the following differences:
  • Swing for the Fences gives a -5 penalty where Awesome Blow gives a -4.
  • Swing for the Fences dose 1d4 damage if target hits an obstical where Awesome Blow dose 1d6.
• Twin Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Focus both lowers the dual wielding penalty if the chosen weapon is wielded dual.

--ElvenKingSlave · Weapons Summoner · Talk 04:01, 3 January 2012 (MST)

I got rid of Reach Weapon Fighting.

I feel that Swing for the Fences and Awesome Blow are unique enough. Awesome Blow has some pretty hefty prerequisites and is the better of the two as such. Swing for the Fences is a bludgeoning attack on a critical hit, so I feel that is it unique in that regard as well.

I got rid of Twin Weapon Fighting since it does not reduce the penalties and it not well-adapted to feat trees (although probably still useable in a campaign). --Green Dragon 01:13, 7 January 2012 (MST)

Minor suggestions

I was just looking at the the reading for the Weapon Summoner, and it says that they have a " knack for weapons in all its forms and shapes." I just think that if that is going to be the description they should be proficient with at least simple and martial weapons, if not all three weapon types. --Odinsaspect (talk) 18:36, 21 May 2013 (MDT)

I'm just curious how you would handle a ranged weapon summon, for instance would the weapon be summoned with projectiles because if i were to say summon a Batista I wouldn't want to carry around bolts. Or would you circumvent this issue through the tattoo?

Rating

Balance - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the modular power of the class very much overcomes the heavy weight restrictions that it has built into it; the tattoos seem a bit heavy considering there isn't as much focus to Strength as the other statistics.

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is very clear as the what is being said with the class.

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the entire thing is formatted properly; no need to give extra detail to it.

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the class is flavorful, is given enough detail to fit into worlds that a GM might want, and yet is still generic enough to be re-fluffed into any shape.

Editing Talk:Weapon Summoner (3.5e Class) (new section) - D&D Wiki

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