Talk:Way of the Shambali (5e Subclass)

input is very welcome, but please try to avoid a complete rework

If you link to people's artwork, please can you credit the artist and provide a link in the caption, thanks. Marasmusine (talk) 17:41, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

As for feedback, I suggest reading through Class Do's and Don'ts (5e Guideline).

I will quickly look at what the class like at 1st level:

• "Unarmored" isn't an armor proficiency
• "Balls" isn't a tool proficiency
• Has one more saving throw than standard, so this should be considered in overall balance
• Some of the equipment looks homebrewed, so link to them.
• Harmony/Disharmony mentions "counters" and "stacks", what is this?
• Harmony orb: Is this an action? Do I have to be able to see the creature? It says "every round", but there's no end to it.
• Disharmony orb: Ditto. How long does it last? Marasmusine (talk) 17:49, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Let's see how this is going.

• "any roughly spherical object" isn't a tool proficiency is. If you don't know what tool proficiencies are, refer to the tools section in your PHB.
• It refers to the Himalayas, and says they are robots. Is this for a modern campaign? If not, how does it fit into a normal D&D game? If they are robots, how does this work with race choice?
• Begins with "any monk weapon". Monk weapons are simple weapons and a shortsword. You haven't given them proficiency in simple weapons.
• Spells should be in italics and linked to the SRD, e.g. magic missile.
• Typos everywhere, e.g. "Trancendance" should be "transcendence"
• Doesn't explain when "Harmony orb improvements" are gained.
• The table has entries for 7 archetype features, but the archetypes only have 2 each, and it doesn't say what level you get them.
• What does "all feats granted by the path of pain" mean? Do you know what feats are?
• Basically this class doesn't work. Marasmusine (talk) 15:12, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello, fellow wikian! I do think Zenyata from Overwatch would make an interesting character, but frankly speaking, the current version of Shambali still leaves much room to be improved upon. So here are my comments:

• Premise. You see, things are more than complicated when porting videogame characters into tabletop roleplaying games. For starters, take the "Many of them no longer walk on the ground, preferring instead to levitate" part. Zenyata in Overwatch floats as a default sprite, but other than that, he still follows the basic rules of walking in the videogame engine. In D&D, however, if you are floating, you are floating, which means that nothing can rule you out from floating on hot lava, water beds, and so forth.

• Quick Build. You will notice that in 5th edition, alignment restriction for classes is all gone. You can have Chaotic monk and paladin and lawful barbarian as much as you want. Besides, if this class is more than simulating Zenyata, I do not see why I cannot have a "black sheep" Shambali as my character.

Oh, and I notice that Strength and Constitution is two primary abilities for Shambali, is it intended?

• Class Features. Hoo boy.

Hit Dice d10 might be a bit too much for Shambali, isn't it? In SRD, fighter, paladin, and ranger has d10 Hit Dice, and that's because they are melee combatants. I think d8 would be just enough for Shambali, because it's more of a mid-range supporter than a melee combatant.

You need more list of skill proficiencies. Two fixed skill proficiencies are not exactly... versatile.

Note that even monk has more equipments than that. How are you supposed to go on an adventure when all you have is a clothes and a weapon? No adventuring gears or anything?

• Class Feature Spread. Three dead levels (3rd, 15th, 17th), both ASI and a class feature at 4th level. I also see sequential archetype features at 5th and 6th levels, but I don't think this would be so problematic by itself, just unorthodox.

• Harmony/Disharmony. You may want to consult your PHB and DMG that in 5th edition, you rarely regain dice-based number of resources upon short rest or long rest. Either you regain them all upon finishing a rest, or you don't regain at all. Some capstone features allow you to regain about 4 out of 20 resources upon short rest or when rolling for initiatives. Besides, up until 4th level, it doesn't make much difference to take either a short rest or long rest because I'm regaining 1d4 out of up to 4 harmony and disharmony, and since long rest takes eight time longer than short rest, why take a long rest at all?

• Harmony Orb. Alright, full stop there. This feature is not only disregarding hit point recovery standards in D&D, it's breaking it down to a pulp. I would like to go in detail:

You will notice that most of the hit point regeneration ("heal") features are heavily handicapped in D&D. cure wounds, for starters, are reserved for only half of the spellcasters, and they have limited uses per long rest. warlock, whose unique spellcasting feature grants them spell slots per short rest, never gains access to healing spells without multiclassing. Even when warlock got an UA subclass that grants them a limited healing feature, it's capped with long rests. Furthermore, in D&D, regaining hit points is not occurred on a stable basis, it's more of a one-shot boost, and even when one's granted "heal-over-time" kind of feature, it rarely lasts more than a minute or so.

Now when you take that into account, you will see that Harmony Orb destroys all other classes in regaining hit points. Regaining 1d4 hit points every round (which is, by the way, 6 seconds), no concentration to break, last indefinitely, and costs only 1 harmony that you can regain every short rest (by the way, 1 point is considered less than a 1st-level spell slot, if you consult your DMG). In case you're wondering how strong that could be, that's an average of 2-3 hit points per round, 20-30 per minute, and 1200-1500 per hour (a short rest). Heck, cure wounds costs a spell slot for 4-5 (plus SAM, which seldom exceeds 5) hit points, and fighter's fighter#second wind gives 30 at maximum per short rest. If you have a current version of Shambali in your party, you don't even need to worry about hit points at all! Oh, and you can target more than one creature at a same time? If not, you have to specify that.

My suggestion for this gawd-awfully broken class feature is, you must limit the feature for one creature at a time, with concentration (up to 1 minute or so, ideally). Instead of automatic hit point regeneration, I suggest giving some other boosts, like rolling an extra 1d4 whenever the creature regains hit points or so. Furthermore, you might want to add something like this: Additionally, when you are giving harmony to a creature, you can spend 1 harmony as a bonus action to regain the target creature's hit points by 1. Combining this 1 hit point regeneration with bonus hit point regeneration, a creature would be able to regain 1d4+1 hit points every round, at a cost of your harmony pool.

• Disharmony Orb. Same problem with Harmony Orb above, but at least it's much better since it specifies a condition for bonus damage. One hitch is, what is the damage type for this bonus damage? If it's the same, you might want to specify it for clarity.

• Balls. Apart from the fact that the name is rather silly, casting a 1st-level spell twice as an action at an uncertain level would be problematic. Besides, if I can cast magic missile twice per action without expending any appropriate resources, why do I even need a weapon in the first place? Same goes to 10th-level feature.

• Light Hearted. What is the altitude for floating, can I float like 30 feet away from the ground or something? The problem of floating (which is even petty compared to problem of flying) is that it allows one to ignore many, many obstacles that would otherwise give them a chance for intersting ways to avoid. Lava? Caltrops? grease? Some difficult terrains? You name it, you can float your way without any harm. This makes a rather... boring character.

• Trancendence. Considering how Harmony Orb is broken, Trancendence is too weak for 5 harmony, even when it's improved with 13th-level feature. "Become invulnerable to damage" doesn't save your robotic skin in D&D, because there are tons of ways to grind you to death without ditching a single point of hit points. (dominate person and makes you float into a quicksand, banishment you into another dimension, or just power word kill and boom, you're dead, etc.) Oh, and you don't do round counting in 5th edition, either your feature lasts until the start/end of your next turn, or it lasts for a fixed amount of 1 minute or 1 hour.

• True Balance. Lazy capstone feature, does nothing so interesting at all. What is point of choosing an archetype in the first place if you're getting them all anyway? Oh, and it's "archetype feature", not "feat". The two are so different in 5th edition, I'm afraid.

• Archetype: Path of Harmony. So, just "moar heal" from Harmony Orb? As if you need more from it? You need something different from other archetypes if you're supposed to choose one. Oh, never mind, because you'll get them all anyway by the time you reach 20th level.

• Archetype: Path of Disharmony. Woo hoo, someone was lazy when copy-pasting Path of Harmony. I won't make a single comment on this one, since this is little more than a lame copy-paste.

• Archetype: Path of Pain. And I tho

ught Shambali is supposed to be Lawful Good or Neutral Good? This is another incomplete archetype, but judging by the premise of them all, I can already imagine a lame, bruiser-type archetype. By the way, I kinda like your honesty there when you say it "deal lots of damage."

• Multiclassing. You rarely gain a skill proficiency from multiclassing, let alone two of it.

That was long. In short: In an attempt to simulate your favorite videogame character (I assume), you created a class that needs more improvement than a blind emulation of Zenyata. For starters, I agree with Marasmusine to suggest you reading through Class Do's and Don'ts (5e Guideline), because I see many mistakes anyone can make when attempting to create a class without understanding how to do so.

Furthermore, because I love deviation, I suggest you to integrate more of something else than a single, flat videogame character. For example, from what I know, Genji is also a Shambali, right? Because he became a disciple of Zenyata, right? Maybe his character can give this class mor versatility, as in, more options to choose from. Unlike videogames, where you have only limited choices on your character, you can create an entire, fleshed-out individual from scratch in D&D. I strongly recommend you to take this chance, unleash your wildest dreams, and create a character option that you can make a wonderful character out of it. Just keep things balanced, though. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 23:48, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

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I believe I have addressed all above concerns regarding balance. I was under the assumption that 1 round was 15 secs as that is the way the only group that I've played with plays, also in that group, there is a pattern of vastly overpowered enemies so I did not stop to consider that indefinite 1d4 healing may be overpowered. on the subject of range of archetypes, the only Shambali shown in game is Zenyatta so that is why I chose to make becoming him the ultimate goal of the class, and the only other character confirmed to be a Shambali in Overwatch lore is Mondatta (the omnic that Widdowmaker killed in the trailer), Genji is only confirmed to have studdied under Zenyatta, not to be a Shambali himself. That said, the path of wind is based on Genji and the Path of earth is loosely based on Reingardt, who is not connected to the Shambali in any way.