Talk:Way of the Asura (5e Subclass)

Helo, fellow wikian! I'm not the one who added the {{needsbalance}} template, I was just wandering through the wiki, but I see you needs some comments on the archetype, so here we go:

• Rage. Maybe you need some wordings for what exactly "Rage" does. Simply referring to barbarian's class feature might not be always good.

Plus, I don't think using the barbarian's Rage feature as it is might not be the best solution. For starters, monks' Martial Arts feature makes them use Dexterity, instead of Strength, for unarmed strikes and monk weaon attacks. Barbarian's Rage feature gives bonus to Strength-based melee attacks. See? This is the part where you need to make difference with the original feature.

Personally, I am against doubling proficiency bonus to unarmed strikes. Even barbarian's feature doesn't do that, instead there is the Reckless Attack feature that gives advantage in both ways. If it's just you who gains the maximum of +6 bonus to the attack roll, that's overpowered. Note that in 5th edition, the best bonus a magical weapon can give you is +3.

"Regaining ki points as you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points" might not be bad, but again, "half your proficiency bonus" might be a bit too much. Note that monk's 20th-level feature allows you to regain 4 ki points, whereas you regain up to 3 ki points just by killing someone. Besides, you regain ki points every short rest, so I can even suggest that "regaining ki points upon killing hostile creatures" might not be that needed after all.

• Fury. Okay, this is just me, I know, but here are some reasons why I am against this feature, flat.

The entire archetype makes you more of a barbarian-monk hybrid, right? Then maybe you can use barbarian's Brutal Critical feature, which not increases the critical hit range, but increases the damage dealt by critical hits. From what I see, 5th edition made critical hit range increase exclusive to Champion!Fighter, and I think that is very much intended. I see many homebrew classes and archetypes attempting to have critical hit range increase, but I think that's not what 5th edition intends, after all.

"Martial Art damage die increases by 1." That's an ambiguous wording, you see. I am aware that back in, what, 3.5e? There used to be "die size increase/decrease" and sort, but that thing's all gone in 5th edition. See enlarge/reduce spell to see how it's changed. Besides, you already have Rage, you can already hit up to three times with your unarmed strikes, and your unarmed strikes are already strong enough, so why even attempt to increase it even further?

I'm not even sure what do you mean by the third feature here. Here is my hunch: When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend ki points equal to 3 plus your Constitution modifier (a minimum of 1) to make additional number of attacks equal to your Strength modifier (a minimum of once). If I'm correct or even close, that's just too overpowered. You already have the Flurry of Blows feature, which enables two unarmed strikes for 1 ki point, so why even bother to add it up? What about the Extra Attack feature? Note that even fighter can attack only up to four times, and even that's when it's 20th-level fighter.

The UA article introduces a monk archetype that enables five attacks, but it comes with a restriction that every attack should land on different creatures. Maybe you can use this article for reference.

• Wrath. Divine Rage sounds like Berserker!Barbarian's Frenzy feature. What I'm concerned with is, since the Rage feature must be direct copy of barbarian's, you must have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage by now. That plus three damage types, and immunity to frightened or charmed? This might be too strong. Note that Berserker!Barbarian's Frenzy enables one melee weapon attack as a bonus action, which is already granted by Martial Arts feature for monks. You might want to come up with another way to give bonus for Divine Rage.

Note that Open Hand!Monk's Wholeness of Body feature takes an action, and it can be used once between long rest. I see that you added ki point spend to restrict the restoration capacity, but still, by 20th level you can regain up to 8d6+80 hit points and removes four level of exhaustion every short rest. That's even stronger than the heal spell.

• Asura. Okay, Asura form is downright broken. You will already gain resistance to b/p/s damage with your Rage, you can get resistance to necrotic, psychic, and radiant damage with your Divine Rage, and even that was not enough, so you added immunity to ALL nonmagical damage AND resistance to ALL damage? And you gain a +4 bonus to AC, which means 24 AC at maximum, which is like +2 plate armor and +2 shield. And your walking speed (presumably) is doubled, which means you can move up to, what, 120 feet per round? Look, 10 ki points is big spend, yes; you can use this feature only once between long rest, yes; but even that, gaining all these wonderful features is just too broken. See other class's 20th-level features and even some monsters to see how seriously overpowered this is.

• +2 to Strength and Constitution is nice and all, I don't think the statistics are overpowered on this one, but again, those two stats are not what monks need. Plus, you may notice that 5th edition is very against giving direct bonus to ability scores, as one of the few ways a player character can have one is through 20th-level feature. I know this archetype makes a monk more of a hybrid of barbarian, but still, I think there must be some other ways to improve this.

Phew! That was long. In short: I suggested which feature is how overpowered, and as far as I see, that makes an entire features downright too strong and/or awkward for monks. I have never played Asura's Wrath myself, but I am a big fan of Buddhism and Hinduism (or for matter, pretty much every mythology and religions), so I think this archetype must be awesome. I just want to keep things interesting, awesome, and balanced. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 11:58, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for telling me. :) Now to nerf the hell out of it. --Iberisdiablo

First of all, thanks for having me! Always glad to be of service.

I checked the revisions. It must just me, but I still see some features are still a bit overpowered. No pressure, though, I'm not exactly the best when it comes to balancing stuffs. Maybe you can add the {{requestreview}} template to find help from other users.

I see that the current version is still ambiguous in terms of wordings, as in, the formatting is not in par with official documents and SRD templates. Maybe I can do some wordings for you. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 00:28, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Just finished the formatting job. Here are some comments I would like to add:

• Balancing. I did some balancing job as well when working on the formatting. You will notice that most "attacks" are replaced with "unarmed strikes and monk weapon attacks", because what I saw was, it would fall for a multiclass abusing if it wasn't narrowed down to those two.

I followed the Berserker!barabarian's Frenzy feature to change a bit of Divine Rage and Asura form. This halves Asura form's duration, but I don't think that would be so problematic, because a) you won't be needing it for 20 rounds anyway, and b) it's already strong enough.

• Further Suggestions. Here are some more suggestions I'd like to make. No pressures, your decision would be ultimatum when it comes to editing the archetype, but it would be useful for consideration.

Fury feature grants you extra attacks. I thought it kinda overlaps with Flurry of Blows feature, which grants you two additional unarmed strikes at the cost of 1 ki. Maybe you can enable spending additional ki for additional attack, as a part of bonus action. The wording would be something like this: When you use your Flurry of Blows feature, you can spend additional ki point, up to your Dexterity modifier (a minimum of 1). For each additional ki spent this way, you can make one additional unarmed strikes as a part of the same bonus action.

Wrath feature enables you to remove exhaustion as a bonus action, right? I'm kinda against that, because a) exhaustion normally takes a long rest to remove, whereas you can remove at least two levels of exhaustions when you gain this feature, and a total of four levels when you reach 20th level: b) Note that Frenzy!barbarian's frenzy also has exhaustion penalty upon finishing it, but it has no means of recovering from that exhaustion, except for long rests. One the other hand, Asura!monk is pretty much self-sufficient.

Maybe you can consider having a size boost for Asura feature, because I thought it would be awesome that way. You can use the enlarge/reduce spell for reference. Again, no pressures.

So that's it for now, I guess. Hope these help. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 01:06, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the help!! yeah I'm looking at it now and trying to see where i can change it.

On fury, yeah ur right about it overlapping should fix that....

for wrath, i should reduce it to once per short or long rest still deciding which one with Asura mode... idk was referencing asura's normal 6 armed mode. mebbe i should add the enlarge but make it cost 2 ki and another level of exhaustion. --Iberisdiablo

Okay, back on track. Again, thanks for having me! Always glad to be of help.

Since the 17th-level feature of this archetype is transforming type of feature, I suggest taking some reference from paladin's 20th-level features. Each archetypes grant different features, but in most cases, the penultimate feature for the paladin is mainly transformation. That would give you idea how to make things interesting.

The comments I made with Asura form's six-attack-on-a-turn was referring to a rather absurd amount of attacks you can make on a single turn. I acknowldege the fact that six arms would make more attack, yes, that's possible - but in terms of balancing, this is very dangerous, because not many features let anyone attack that much. Not that tarrasque, a flippin' CR 30 monster, can make five attack on a row, or six if you count the Frightful Presence.

My idea on utilizing six arms is, having more chances to react to attacks, as in, more opportunity attacks. In that case, I suggest you to see Knight's Defender's Blade feature, from the Unearthed Arcana article.

I have never played Far Cry 3 myself, but I think the features you suggested on my talk page would be very awesome. So that's "presence of fear" aura and/or frightening attacks, right? Both are so awesome, I also cannot say which one is better than the other. If you would like to add either of them, here is my suggestions for reference: Fighter's Battle Master archetype (on PHB), and Unearthed Arcana article on paladin's Sacred Oath options.

This is just me, but when it comes to balancing, I'm rather uncertain if I'm doing it right. I may point out some points that in my opinion is unbalanced or awkward, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. I'm adding the {{requestreviews}} template on the page, to see if there's anyone else out there who could help you further with the balancing issues. You might want to consult some of the admins for help. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 06:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

P.S. You can make a quick signature with four tildes (~) in a row. Try it! ;)

Cant the six armed naga make that many attacks though and including a tail attack as a finisher? I'll have to find my book later.

Also same with the paladin transformation and while they have magic this class has resistances.

for reactions, i think it would depend. my belief that the asura is too angry to try and dodge all and is more likely to rely on a good offense is a good defense. and the asura feature by itself so far as makin six attacks the fighter can action surge to make 8 i think 2x per long rest and this is a very aggressive monk.

at this point, i think i have a bit too much stuff for asura already so i'll just let it stop there for extra stuff. Instead of a mighty fuck off! move, I'm giving it a pretty big fuck off! mode instead. should i remove monk weapons from use when in asura mode though since asura doesnt actually have weapons but all other historical mentions depict them as if they do.

as for balancing and senetence structure, you've helped me a lot in deciding what to keep and remove so there's that. Iberisdiablo (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)