Talk:Ursa Major (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

The Build is Good Why?

I don't understand why this build is good. Could you fill in a section on that? Surgo 16:59, 17 September 2008 (MDT)

I haven't finished writing it yet. It gets lots of attacks, has Con to AC twice, Wis to AC, Rend (which is like extra attacks), high unarmed damage, pounce, extra natural armor during a rage, turn into a black bear during a rage, cold absorb during a rage, and lots of other goodies. I may trade improved grapple for power attack as the monk bonus (Overwhelming attack) so I can pick up Extra rage later, but I liked the thematic feel of improved grapple. --Aarnott 18:35, 17 September 2008 (MDT)

That's more understandable now, for sure. However, it would be really nice if you could point out what level this build comes online -- that is, what level is it that playing before it you'd want to kill yourself and playing during/after it is somewhat okay. Surgo 13:34, 18 September 2008 (MDT)

Just looking at the progression I'd say 6th or 7th. 6th gets you CON to AC the first time, 7th gets it the second time (assuming you get it twice, though I don't feel like figuring out why or why not). I think you'd be decently protected and decently "armed" to be an effective character at that point. -- Draco18s 70.16.137.16 10:41, 19 October 2008 (MDT)

It is actually 8th level that this happens. It is online at that point -- before that, the build is weaker than normal (though that is ok with combat types for low levels). --Aarnott 14:01, 19 October 2008 (MDT)

Doon't you think it's a bit tweaky to go from lawful monk, to chaotic barbar to lawful Fist of the Forest?As a DM you'd have to come up with a good explaination. But, in the interest of optimization, could this work with Half-Giant and powerful wild shape for the extra damage from size? --Ganre 07:06, 29 March 2009 (MDT)?

Deletion

It does decent damage. It isn't optimized completely for damage -- mostly for an interesting synergy of classes. Keep in mind that with a monk's belt, Fist of the Forest unarmed strike damage boosts, and the Warshaper natural weapon damage boost, the damage starts at a respectable number. Add in a +10 raging increase to strength. He can also flurry of blows twice (regular flurry + one-two punch from the frostrager). Every 2 attacks also trigger a rend (small damage, but 1.5x str modifier). Assuming the full 6 attacks go through, that is 6x str + 4.5x str.

The main issue was noted above: the alignment changes. That is the only reason I would consider deleting this, not the low damage compared to other optimizations. --Aarnott 17:08, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

I actually made a character using this build, at level twenty it ended up with 6 attacks that each dealt 6d8+1d6+13 damage, avergaed out, if all six attacks hit, thats 258 damage per round, i think thats pretty good amount of damage, of course i dont optimize near as much as some peopl eon this site, he also had 64 AC, which i think is very high.Summerscythe 17:56, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

So let's break the damage down; we'll assume a starting Strength of 16, but it sounds like we're concentrating on upping Con, so Str will only receive a boost from a +6 Str Item.

That means our Strength is 3 (Base Str) + 3 (Item) + 4 (Bear) + 2 (Rage) + 2 (Warshaper) = 14.

Our attack sequence will be 18 (BAB) + 14 (Str) - 2 (Flurry) - 2 (One-Two Punch) - 1 (Size) = +27/+27/+27/+22/+17/+12

Damage per attack is 1d6 (Monk) -> 1d8 (Monk's Belt) -> 1d10 (Superior Unarmed Strike) -> 3d6 (Bear) -> 4d6 (Improved Natural Attack) -> 6d6 (Warshaper) + 1d4 (Frostrage) + 14 (Str) + 2 (Feral Trance) = 6d6+1d4+16 for 39.5 on average. (Note that Rend only procs 1/round, so add 3d8 damage at the end of the attacks.)

Now let's put it against an AC of 40 by level 20. (39.5 * 7 / 20) * 3 + (39.5 * 2 / 20) = 53.33 Damage per Round. (We'll discount the attacks that have no chance of hitting except on a crit. You can add another 13.5 damage if at least 2 attacks hit from Rend.)

As you can see, 53.33 DPR against an AC of 40 is... rather low for an "optimized" build. You might have great AC, but AC won't help much if enemies can just ignore you and pass you by for the squishies. I'm also not sure if Superior Unarmed Strike stacks with Monk's Belt for that matter, since both treat you as a number of levels higher than you are, rather like Powerful Build not stacking with Monkey Grip. --Ghostwheel 20:50, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

Heres the sheet, looking over it, everything is pretty legit, i beleive it is made with a 36 point buy and a background feat. 63 AC. The only difference is i added vow of poverty, which most people think is a waste to use anyway. http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=116771 Summerscythe 20:57, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

Eh, VoP isn't part of the build, so can't really speak for your character. And as it was mentioned, most of the bonuses on there occur when you use per-day abilities, of which you have relatively few of every day, so the damage isn't even really maintainable for more than a fight or two... That said, do you want to add VoP to the main build itself, and then recalculate the damage against AC 40? --Ghostwheel 21:04, 24 July 2009 (MDT)

Builds shouldn't just be invalidated because they don't do much damage. Your grapplemancer would be pretty worthless if you stay on that school of thought. There is no golden standard for how high optimizations need to go in terms of some number of damage, AC, etc. you are trying to achieve. Sure, this is on the low end of power for optimizations, but it still is much more powerful than traditional meleers. It has good AC and plenty of attacks.

On a quick side note, this build does not use VoP because items would usually benefit it more. In your above damage calculation example, you have failed to give him a pretty important item (amulet of might fists +5 or permanency greater magic fang). (44.5 * 12 / 20) * 3 + (44.5 * 7 / 20) + (44.5 * 2 / 20) = 100 Damage per Round. Add in boots of speed (+1 attack, +1 to attack rolls) for (44.5 * 13 / 20) * 4 + (44.5 * 8 / 20) + (44.5 * 3 / 20) = 140 Damage per Round. That is just the tip of the massive iceberg that items are.

My main point is that this build does something cool and that alone makes it a worthwhile read as far as optimizations go. The idea was to get a monk-like character that tanks well against other meleers (con being good for both HP and AC twice) and still has the flurry options and such. Con to AC twice and Wis to AC is neat; especially since there is a nice thematic fit here (besides silly prereq alignments). --Aarnott 07:05, 25 July 2009 (MDT)

Just a note, as far as the grapplemancer goes, it does deal good damage for its level. See Balor Nimbus and the other spell... I forget its name. But both deal good damage while completely neutralizing a few within a grapple, and at the same time keeping them dazed through Bladeweave. The point I was trying to make though is a different one; apart from high AC and damage, this build doesn't bring much to the table as far as tactics are concerned. If it only had high AC, it would need a way to play the defender, keeping enemies attacking him instead of just waltzing past for the squishies. Just because a build does something "cool" doesn't mean it's "optimized"--for example the build that tries to get your Reflex save sky-high. Sure, it's cool, but it doesn't do anything really.

That said, I did forget about the Amulet of Natural Weapons. With that added in, damage rises high enough for it to be viable in my book, sorry for forgetting about it, will remove the deletion tag. And yeah, I agree with you as far as alignment prerequisites are concerned. Those are dumb IMO too. --Ghostwheel 07:15, 25 July 2009 (MDT)

Im wondering what you want to see brought to the table. It gets about 450-500 HP, AC in the 60s and decent damage, when it rages, it turns into a giant bear covered in ice, Its like an abominable snowman, which is freakin awesome. That flavor gives it a stamp of awesome as far as I'm concerned. Dwarf traits, so its sturdy, as well as immunity to criticals. slight fast healing and an addition to reach. It also has pounce. It can take a lot of damage, and dish enough out where it has a good role in combat, plus its a freakin abominable snowman. I guess I've just seen you very active on the wiki lately and want to know what you would want to see brought to the table to make something a viable optimization and what makes this one tow the line?Summerscythe 10:29, 25 July 2009 (MDT)

This one is fine, after I had the damage dealt clarified. The flavor doesn't matter to me at all, to tell the truth--optimization is about the mechanics, since flavor is very mutable. You could probably say you turn into an Abominable Snowman with this build and get away with it, so flavor doesn't factor in. But for what I look for in a build...? That it fills one of these roles well. That's enough for me. For example, someone with high AC but who couldn't keep the attention of the enemies (and I don't count "just standing in front of them" as a good enough way to do so) would be fairly worthless in an actual game, and the only reason to keep such a build up is to show that one can get a build with an AC that high. But if there's already one, no need for two, if that makes any sense. --Ghostwheel 10:40, 25 July 2009 (MDT)