Talk:Telepath (3.5e Class)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because while I'm not too clear on a few of the classes abilities, it seems decently balanced overall. → Rith ^(talk) 22:15, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 since the abilities on this page are seriously confusing me, I mean, does the telepath gain the benifits of anticipate as long as he remains in range of enemies while using the detect thoughts ability? Do the telepaths foes need to be within the range of detect thoughts for a certain number of rounds in order for the telepath to gain the bonuses? All in all, rather confusing. → Rith ^(talk) 22:15, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

read the mind = under the effect of her read thoughts ability. --Lord Dhazriel 23:58, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

So there is absolutely no restriction to the ability what-so-ever and the telepath can simply focus for an indefinite ammount of time, and give half or their int modifier to all allies within 50 of them for the purpose of AC, damage rolls, and attack rolls? All at level 2?! Keep in mind that it isn't all that difficult to get an extremely high int modifier, and suddenly you are a beacon of awesome and everybody within 50 feet of you is godly upon the battlefield, unable to be touched, constantly hitting their enemies, and dealing extra damage with each strike. Now then, the reason I gave you a bad rating in wording is because I assumed you had mistyped the class abilities, and since, if the way I read it was accurate, it'd be getting a 1 on power. I gave you the benifit of the doubt and said, "I just misread it," but maybe not. → Rith ^(talk) 10:56, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Well not really, first we need to concentrate, a single strike disturb the entire ability. 2 The target gain a will save, in fact every target. Compare it now to a color spray of a mage of equal level and intelligence. One grant good bonus to you and allies but are loss if yo get stabbed in the face. The other simply put the affected opponent out of the battle. Both are cone effect. So it not a will save or die as many spells. After a while you get undead, construct and mind-affecting immune stuff. The need to concentrate is a real pain too, you may do much much less stuff in your turn. Read Mind isn't a battle powerful ability as you can see, the multiple restriction, way to escape it and the fact you must avoid damages or make a giga concentration check to avoid losing everything. It use are... outside combat. Getting a bonus on a hide check against a guard by reading his mind is cool and all, or the bonus granted by diplomacy. The ability have some combat uses, but it not as awesome as someone could think it is first. Concentrating on it target is a move action if my memory serve me right, so no full a attack for a telepath using this ability. Yeah you gain all these bonuses: if the enemy fail the will save, if you aren't stabbed in the face too hard, if you sacrifice your move action, if all the enemies are within your 60 ft. cone. The wizard just throw a color spray same DC, but if they fail it the end. The ability remain rather useful as the telepath grow in level, you gain rank in concentration, you may even be hasted by a party member. But now it doesn't really matter anymore, everyone got some of their best abilities easily matching you. So yeah. --Lord Dhazriel 11:23, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Well in that case, this class is balanced and there is a problem with the wording, since you simply state, "Any creature being affected by it," instead of, "Any creature within the cone area who fails their will save." The way you stated it could easily be misconstrued to translate to, "If they are remotely in the affected area," and that is rather unbalanced. The way I now understand the class, it actually deserves the power rating it got, though the wording still needs to be worked on. → Rith ^(talk) 11:36, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

All the info were on detect thoughts spell however. If you feel these info are needed I can write them. --Lord Dhazriel 11:38, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Well, the poeple who wrote the stats for that creature that Pun-Pun turns into probably thought they didn't have to go into detail either, and look what that erupted into. → Rith ^(talk) 11:45, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Good point, I clarify it now. --Lord Dhazriel 11:56, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Okay, changed my rating to a 5. → Rith ^(talk) 12:05, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 4.25/5 I give this class a 4.25 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, though, interwiki linking is decently comprehensive. → Rith ^(talk) 22:15, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

I think mostly fixed it ;) --Lord Dhazriel 15:16, 13 July 2009 (MDT)

Yes, and this is now worth a 4.25/5. → Rith ^(talk) 22:16, 13 July 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 4.9 out of 5 because, I like the fact that this class gets sneak attack, it is very fascinating that a telepath is a character who is rather rogueish. I think it's fitting and that element to the flavor is earning it a very good rating despite the fact that the flavor parts of the preload are missing. → Rith ^(talk) 22:15, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Missing preload sections really should be considered independent of flavor. Flavor is one of the more "subjective" parts of a class' rating. --Aarnott 11:13, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Yeah, after a night to think about it I agree, changed to 5. → Rith ^(talk) 11:20, 17 April 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because many spell casting classes are either over powered or just too weak. This finds a good balance of spells and other abilities. It lacks the ability, however, to do jack squat against various foes. Undead for example happen to be a big part of any game I run, and I've encountered more undead in ones I've played than I care to count. Sometimes, also, it's rather pointless to have mind affecting things; especially against orcs or creatures that all seem to have one track minds. Satyrs, by my understanding, have sex constantly on the brain; so although it may be useful to know he's going to target the chick with no weapons and light armor, the kind of things that would follow might debilitate a female Telepath. --24.214.247.225 01:19, 24 May 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because certain descriptions are awfully vague (ex. Bypass Blank Mind; doesn't specify that it actually bypasses the Blank Mind spell.) In other instances, the explination is good, but somewhat lacking; it gets the idea or point across without going into too much detail. That can be both good and bad as loopholes will be found; whether you want this or not I don't know, just saying. --24.214.247.225 01:19, 24 May 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it follows the format to a T, as far as I understand anyways. I'm not sure how to get rid of the message that says it's formatted wrong, because I followed the thingy it tells you to look at and mine is fine. Mine's the Planeswalker btw, it could use some play testing. xD --24.214.247.225 01:19, 24 May 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the concept is simply awesome. Someone able to read the thoughts of the enemy would be a great ally. It would also almost completely eliminate the need for interrogation, unless spells say otherwise of-course. It's a great class, especially, for a cohort. Should finish up other aspects though, such as the Telepaths in the World, and the Knowledge check part. Adding more background or other things like that would make the class seem just that much cooler. --24.214.247.225 01:19, 24 May 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 10/5 I give this class a 10 out of 5 because it is overpowered in many aspects. Reason why and steps to improve as follows:

Base attack bonus: Poor. The BAB reflects how physically involved a character becomes in combat and proficiency with armor. There is a no reason a telepath, or any character with an UNLIMITED supernatural ability, a RANGED TOUCH ATTACK that does 1d6 per caster lvl to develop any BAB above poor. They don't fight with physical weapons; they use their minds.

HD 4. The HD represents how physically involved a character becomes in combat, as well as a gauge for thier proficiency in armor. As stated above, a telepath is unlikely to get involved physically in most activities, and would not develop an HD greater than 4.

Weapon proficiency: Simple, or [club dagger xbow (heavy and light) and Quaterstaff]. Again, telepaths have little or no use martial or exotic weapons.

Armor proficeny: none. As stated above, no reason why a telepath would develop the skills to use armor. And no class has avoid arcane spell failure greater than light armor anyways, why would telepaths, who use their minds more often than their hands be able to complete somatic components to spells in medium, let alone light armor?

Skills: (Remove Appraise, Balance, climb, disguse, escape artist, hide, jump, listen, move silently, perform, slight of hand, swim and tumble, use magic device.) Reduce the skills to 3+int or even 2+int. Telepaths have no use for physical skills involving either strength or dexterity; perform is either a physical or art related ability, neither of which is needed by a telepath (a telepath could entertain an audience with her mental powers as a rogue would tumbling; there is no need to make a check on this though as everyone is either impressed by magic tricks or not impressed; no middle ground or chance of failure); use magic device is for the curious and foolish bards and rogues who covet magic items because of their history or false promises of getting rich quick. A telepath knows better than to muddle with magic items it does not comprehend how to use.

Sneak attack: why, and how? How can one apply sneak attack damage to the mind because they can read their thoughts? Sneak attack damage is only applied when the target is unable to effective defend itself. Either that would be when it is flat-foot (ie not expecting an attack) or all the time, if it cannot realise how it is being attacked. And as a ranged touch attack, the sneak attack would only apply if the telepath is within 30 ft of the target. Either way, Sneak attack damage does not seem to fit the role of the class, adds more un-needed power and should be removed. The telepath could get sneak attack by multiclassing with a rogue or another class which adds this ability. Also, the table sshoudl read 6d6 at lvl 16 and 7d6 at lvl 19.

Read thoughts: Detect thoughts allows you to read the thoughts of any and all those withing the 60 foot cone (will save for each one) However, maintaining concentration of any ability is a Standard action, not a move action. ceaseing concetration cause any affect dependent on her read thought ability to gain the benefits until the round following the one she drops concentration on (due to performing another standard of full round action). This also is no longer an issue at lvl 11.

Anticipate and Telepathic influence: Should be insight bonus equal for each lvl in telepath up to her int modifier, and should be for AC, attacks and Skill checks AND SAVES. Because they are both "insight" bounses, there is no reason why they should stack. Social situations and combat situations are completely seperate, and being socially astute would not provide an addtional insight bonus to the skill check used to sense-motive in combat against a feint, since it is the same skill essentially that is providing this bonus (ie her ability to read her opponents mind).

Mental Shock: The range should be equivilant or proportinal to her telepathy in general (ie 50 at lvl 1, 100 at lvl 5, 150 at lvl 10 etc.) Why add sneak attack damage?

Telepathic evasion: Give the telepath bonus to saves as per "anticipate" and scratch this. Knowing a fireball is comming is one thing. Being able to dodge one is another. The telepath can't read the mind of the fireball, and the mage casting it doesnt' know exactly how to dodge it, so reading his mind won't be of any more use. Evasion is a physical act that requires great agility and knowledge and training on how to evade. Not somethin a telepath would develop, or be able to acquire through 3 seconds of telepathic contact with an opponent.

Also, no other class can use evsion in medium armor due to physical restraint, so why a telepath?

Telepathic Resistance: Bonuses should be lowered to +2.

Mind Blank and Bypass mind Blank: These abilites should work similar to a rogues ability to flank a target and Unproved uncanny dodge. Mind blank should only be effective against a class who has 4 or more lvls in Bypass mind blank (or equivilant ability), and vice versa for Bypass mind blank against a target with mind blank like ability.

That's it really, a good base here, but overall it looks like you have the benefits of two classes (rogue and Bard) mixed into one, AND a limitless spell-like ability to add to it all. Even a 15 Sorcerer/5 Archmage can only cast fireball 30 times day on top of his normal allotment, at that takes up 10 of his spell slots! (5 of which are lvl 9, at that!) The mental shock needs to be nerfed to x per day casting, or what would work better is that a telpath could SPONTAIOUS cast a mental shock in place of one of her prepared spells, dealing spell lvl d8 dmg +1 dmg per caster lvl, as would a cleric spontaiously casting inflict light/moderate/heavy wounds spell. And make it effect multiple targets at the higher lvls (4,5,6) as would the mass versions of those spells work. That could justify an increase in HD to 6 and the ability to wear light armor with no arcane spell failure.

 --76.64.183.210 00:20, 13 October 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is clear and concise and well written --76.64.183.210 00:20, 13 October 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it follows the guidelines very well but is still contains incomplete sections. Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is a really popular idea to have a telepath and much kudos for the work put into it so far. I would allow this class in many if not all my campagnes, provided it was balanced more appropriately to the standards of the other classes. --76.64.183.210 00:20, 13 October 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it is way too powerful, especially on lower levels. Many powers gained on levels 1-7 should be placed/distributed to higher levels (e.g. Mental Shock on 3rd). And get rid of SA, thats over the top. You might want to have a look at the Telepath Prestige Class presented in "Ultimate Alien Anthology" by WotC, released 2003 for Star Wars. Some nice ideas there, even though that one needs a litte "pimping".

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I could understand everything (w00t).

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because formatting is plain good.

Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because Telepath as a class is very interesting but it is atm just too powerful in my opinion.

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it has great range attack that doesn't reveal where they are

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is easy to understand.

Formatting - 5/5

Flavor - 4/5

Rating

Balance - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it seems a bit better than other base classes. its sort of a beguiler version of a bard, but the spell saves growing with class levels is unusual and 6 skill points might be more appropriate. the insight bonuses also can be pretty crazy at higher levels, but I don't think its particularly balance braking. --99.22.73.7 14:46, 12 December 2013 (MST)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I am not sure how the spell read thoughts and the ability interact... the spell takes 3 rounds to get to the surface thoughts, is that when the insight bonuses start. or does the ability even have that wait time. what does 'instant' mean, free action? (it was a swift before) --99.22.73.7 14:46, 12 December 2013 (MST)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because It seems wonderfully formatted to me. it was pretty clear, and the additional lore was great. --99.22.73.7 14:46, 12 December 2013 (MST)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is a fun class, and there wasn't a good way to do this with printed materials. (maybe with psonics... I don't know those well) --99.22.73.7 14:46, 12 December 2013 (MST)

HOLY MOTHER OF D6S, BATMAN

I love this class. Well and truly, I love it. But...1d6...per class level...as a ranged touch attack...at will...with Sneak Attack. You can outpace plenty of other DPS classes like that. Honestly, 1d6 is perfectly reasonable, given the additional sneak attack. -SecondDeath777