Talk:Swashbuckler (5e Class)

I personally really like this seeing as there are basically no options in 5e so far for non-fighter mundane classes seeing as rangers that hit things are horribly underpowered. That being said there are some glaring flaws that need addressing and I would love some input on my proposed changes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16xTVqQe74EGLiSVIznGXzXSCb4Rh3L5-GM5pprzP0Fs/edit?usp=sharing

Well to begin the title is messed up, not cool. Beyond that some of your modifications improve the class and others just seem overpowered and broken. Have you had a chance to play this class? How does it do?--The Necromancer, Excille (talk) 20:10, 8 February 2015 (MST)

Based on the doc title I already hate you and assume unflattering things about your ability to be sexually or socially capable. But I'm looking these over, some of your points make sense and I'll try and implement them. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 18:40, 12 February 2015 (MST)

Alright, I think this is now markedly better, adding expendable points helps keep abilities under check and from being too over-powered, and it frees up the ability to include maneuvers. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 12:39, 13 February 2015 (MST)

For something so dependant on these points you dont give the player very many of them do you "```"

There aren't many, but given that you regain 1 after a short rest, I think it evens out. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 09:33, 6 October 2015 (MDT)

Buckler Shield

What stats are you using for the buckler shield?Some of my players were upset that they removed the different types of shields and I've been interested in a variant rule.--The Necromancer, Excille (talk) 08:07, 1 February 2015 (MST)

Yeah, I think part of the problem was that they made shields a broad category of armor rather than their own thing. I haven't really planned a variant, but I guess the closest thing would be blending weapons and armor to make a shield category with weight-classes, AC and properties. But that doesn't exist yet. Also I guess it would make sense to have buckler shields have a different AC bonus against different attack types, +1 normally, +2 against melee weapon attacks. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 11:13, 1 February 2015 (MST)

I agree with you on the statistics for the buckler and I think I'll allow my players to use that. I was considering what to do for tower shields but that's a different topic. I'm going to roll this class and see how it plays out. I'll be in touch soon. --The Necromancer, Excille (talk) 11:19, 1 February 2015 (MST)

I disagree with the suggested buckler. It doesn't seem intuitive that a smaller, lighter item is half again as good as a full size shield against a dagger or a greataxe. I think it would better reflect its historical usage in rapier combat by granting +1 AC, and when used with a one-handed finesse weapon, a +1 to attack rolls; this is because the buckler's main purpose in rapier combat was to hide the sword-hand to make it harder for the enemy to predict the next attack. This is something that remains useful and true regardless of the arms and armor of your opponent. —Proton^[talk] 11:46, 1 February 2015 (MST)

I feel as though any further discussion on the shield should occur on its equipment page. Buckler (5e Equipment)--The Necromancer, Excille (talk) 11:51, 1 February 2015 (MST)

Dread Pirate and Sailor

As I was rolling a Dread Pirate I realized that the most logical background would be sailor but sailors already get proficiency with waterborne vehicles. Did you include this to provide universal proficiency to all players that select Dread Pirate or was this an oversight?--The Necromancer, Excille (talk) 12:01, 1 February 2015 (MST)

The former, after all, classes are independent of backgrounds and it doesn't make any sense for a dread pirate to be hopeless on the water. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 23:19, 2 February 2015 (MST)

Bonus damage

Both Swashbuckling and Artful Swordplay grant bonus 1d6 damage, I assume this is a mistake and that it's only one bonus damage.

Looking at the damage output, at 12th level, a swashbuckler with a rapier deals 1d8 + 3d6 damage. With extra attacks, this is 3d8 + 9d6 = an average of 45 damage. In comparison, a 12th level rogue deals 1d8 + 6d6 (about half the time) = 15 damage.

Either have the bonus damage or the extra attacks, not both. Marasmusine (talk) 01:08, 5 November 2015 (MST)

Neither of those were mine, I tried to make a combat-focused rogue, these additions are pretty broken. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2015 (MST)

I will keep the points boost though, if people are complaining about their usefulness at higher level then that seems like a good way to make them stronger without making them more beefy than a fighter. (Basically I'd rather the changes be towards making a swashbuckler more competent with technique than just damage dealing)Lemiel14n3 (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2015 (MST)

Yeah, I spotted they weren't yours, but I didn't want to revert in case I had missed the point! Thanks for fixing. Marasmusine (talk) 08:00, 6 November 2015 (MST)

Archetype

Wouldn't Swashbuckler be better as an archetype of a Fighter or Rogue?--209.97.85.48 13:16, 13 February 2016 (MST)

WotC released a swashbuckler archetype for the rogue in their forgotten realms book. But I see a swashbuckler as its own unique "genre", too direct to be a rogue, too swishy to be a fighter, and that's how I conceived it, a balanced class that sits somewhere between the two. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 23:33, 13 February 2016 (MST)

It's broken. Fix it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/38jc8x/does_this_swashbuckler_homebrew_5e_class_sound/crvhmtt

Sincerely, --Kydo (talk) 02:42, 2 September 2016 (MDT)

Wish this wasn't archived so I could ask for suggestions. It seems like some of the complaints I've already corrected, and others, well I can keep tweaking, I'll be the first to admit that I was building more around flavor than I was around balance. I tried to keep it as a consideration (and I posted it up here to see if people could spot things I might have missed, too bad they got complained about on reddit rather than commented on here.) Lemiel14n3 (talk) 00:39, 3 September 2016 (MDT)

So let me think of what I can do to fix it without having to straight-up remove things (We'll call that the nuclear option and hold it in reserve) Artful swordplay could have a maximum to its bonus... a max of +4 say? Or a max of your proficiency bonus? Yeah, the disengage as a bonus action or a reaction makes sense. Frankly I didn't see any other way to include maneuvers without also including the superiority die, and I didn't want them to do battlemaster damage. Regaining more swashing points during a short rest would make it less paralyzing to spend them, maybe 1d4? Yeah, duelist needs more specific wording for the mechanics, maybe you get a boost so long as no opponent is within 30 ft.? I must have forgotten to change blademastery on here, I spotted that problem and made it so you can't have disadvantage and only with a single weapon of your choice. How do you not get advantage on attack rolls, you pick your best result out of two. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 00:51, 3 September 2016 (MDT)

The problem with reviewing classes is that they are extremely complex. It would take me a month of fidgeting around with this, making various builds and test-running them before I could give that degree of detail in a review of it. I don't see how we're supposed to improve the quality of our classes in any sort of efficient or rapid way. --Kydo (talk) 08:32, 3 September 2016 (MDT)

That's not really what I'm saying, it's that one of the advantages of posting content to wiki sites like this is that it opens it up to broad comment and critique. I never would have caught some of those things on my own, but I can't be expected to address these issues if complaints are made on a separate site. Lemiel14n3 (talk) 12:40, 4 September 2016 (MDT)