Talk:Summoner, Alternate (5e Class)

Hi there

I translated this class from Pathfinder's rule system to 5e as a means to share one of my favorite concepts with more players. There's already a Summoner class on this site, of course, as well as others around the internet. But either they were direct copies of the Pathfinder version without regards to 5e's careful balancing act (such as the one here), or were so far removed from the concept that they might as well have called it something else. So I decided it would be prudent to take it on myself to create something I feel would fit in with the game world without being so ridiculously unbalanced as to make everything else obsolete.

Now. I know the entire concept of this kind of class is inherently unbalanced, as you basically end up controlling multiple characters. I tried my hardest to keep it as balanced as I felt was prudent. If you have any questions, I'll try and clear up anything I can. Any suggestions, state your ideas and your case and I'll get back to you, too. I'm definitely open to changing this if I feel someone makes a strong argument for/against something, so don't be shy.

In particular, I'm looking for feedback and suggestions for the Divisionist, which has the highest potential for abuse.

Busterwilde3 (talk)

Please

Don't make changes without first discussing them here. I undid a recent change by an anonymous contributor.

To whoever thought Slam should deal 2d8 points of damage, I feel that's a bit excessive. If you feel it would be more appropriate, explain why and I might change it personally.

Busterwilde3 (talk)

I'm still watching this page and will undo any changes made without first consulting me. I don't mind if you feel like something should be different. Discuss it here and if I feel like you're right, I'll change it myself.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 00:29, 2 January 2017 (MST)

Hey hey hey, I stopped receiving updates for this page but that doesn't mean I'm no longer watching it. To whomever decided to completely rewrite the Broodmaster archetype, please feel free to discuss why you felt like it needed to be changed here and maybe I'll consider putting your changes back the way they were. To whomever clarified certain class features, I appreciate it, but please also discuss that here and allow me to change the wording myself in the future.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 04:04, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Still watching. To whoever keeps trying to alter Twin Eidolon, would you please stop? I doubt you've even checked this page, otherwise you would have seen my requests to not change anything without first asking me.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 16:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Not letting this page go to hell just because someone thinks it needs to be alerted. TALK TO ME IF YOU THINK IT NEEDS CHANGING. Otherwise, everything is getting undone. --Busterwilde3 (talk) 02:07, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Further Discussions

Hello, fellow wikian! I was just passing through, but I skimmed through your article and found it interesting. Here are the comments I would like to leave:

• Eidolon Creation: Base Forms. I see some of the base weapons the Eidolons have a mark like "×2". Does that means it has a Multiattack feature, which enables the creature to make two attacks with one Attack action? As far as I am concerned, the 5th edition is rather picky with Multiattacks. For example, an orc (CR ½) can attack only once, an orc war chief (CR 4) can attack twice, and a tarrasque (CR 30) can attack up to five times.

• Evolution: Improved Damage. As far as I know, the 5th edition does not use 1d2 and 1d3 for damage rolls. Furthermore, I have this feeling that the damage improvement stage can be improved, as the enlarge/reduce spell in the 5th edition has performed. (FYI: I once played a sorcerer on a 3.5rd campaign, and my fellow fighters had to look up the rulebook for statistics of their enlarged weapons. I guess the philosophy of the 5th edition is to reduce such incidents.)

• Others. This is an awesome class! The idea of creating my own creature companion is just awesome, and I think your conversion is very smooth. I think this will make a very intersting character. I am counting on this one! --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 00:16, 9 February 2017 (MST)
  
  

Hey, thanks for the feedback! I especially appreciate that you took the time to review the class and write out your feedback instead of changing what you felt needed to be changed. I'll try to explain what I was going for the things you mentioned the best I can (which is probably not very good at all, but whatever).

• For the base forms, it seemed obvious to me, but now that you mention it, I can see why listing the natural weapon with a "x2" might be confusing, especially since Multiattack is towards the bottom of the 2-Point Evolutions section. Certain evolutions (claws, hooves, pincers, and wing buffet) each grant two attacks by virtue of them affecting two limbs. The listing under the Multiattack evolution is supposed to indicate that an eidolon without the evolution can't make more than one natural attack without taking it (except using a natural weapon they have the evolution for to make a "secondary" attack as a bonus action, like when a PC is fighting with 2 light weapons). I'm not sure how to rewrite it to make it less confusing, though. Maybe writing out the attacks individually?
• As for the damage, that's simply the way it felt best from my perspective. I know 5e doesn't have a single creature listing with a die below d4 (anything with a lower damage "die" only deals 1 point of damage). I may simply apply the effects of Enlarge/Reduce as the effect of the evolution (as well as the extended effects of increasing and decreasing size through the Grow and Shrink evolutions) for simplicity's sake. Thanks for the suggestion.
• Thanks! I'm glad you like it. If you ever play it in a campaign, please feel free to provide feedback on how it performs as you adventure and increase in level. My current theory is that while it may seem powerful at lower (what with controlling two characters), as it progresses, the power each individual half of the class wields grows at a slower rate than an individual from another class, balancing it out.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 22:18, 9 February 2017 (MST)

Evolution Points

So I've been looking at evolution based Summoner classes for a awhile and recently I wondered, "Does the eidolon revert to it's original/base form everytime I take a level of summoner, and then I allocate the new evolution points for a completely new evolution build, or will my eidolon keep its evolutions from level one and then at level two I have two more evolution points to use for additional evolutions (i.e. If I choose 'mount' at level one, will my eidolon maintain that evolution forever, or will I have to use one of my two evolution points at level two to keep it?)?"

That's a long thought... sorry. I hope that makes sense.--P Cove053 (talk) 09:53, 9 February 2017 (MST)

Don't worry, I understood what you meant. The "Evolution pool" shows the TOTAL number of evolution points you have to spend on your Eidolon. So, at level 2, your Eidolon has 2 total points with 1 of them allocated to the Mount evolution, giving them 1 to spend at your new level. You can re-select your Eidolon's evolutions at every level if you want (similar to how a Bard or Warlock can swap out spells they know at new levels). I hope this was helpful. Feel free to ask if you need any more explanation--Busterwilde3 (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2017 (MST).

Thoughts

Hey, I would like to start off by saying I really like this class. Creating your own monster/creature is awesome. I had a few thoughts:

• Eidolon Creation: Base Forms - I was reading through the eidolon creation and thought it might be a good idea to include an ability score increase as well. Similar to racial traits, but not as many points. Like a +1 to Dex for the Avian type, +1 to Con for the Quadruped, and a +1 to Str for the biped. I thought an extra point or two might be nice since i prefer to use the preset 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

• Evolutions: Swift - I feel like 5 feet is a very small increase. I was thinking it could either be increased to 10 feet or possibly allow this evolution to be taken multiple times as with some of the other ones. Just a thought since the quadruped has the highest speed at 40 and many other beasts have speeds up to 50 (wolves and felines) or 60 (horses) it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. I would definitely consider this more worthwhile if it could increase my speed by 10.

• Evolutions: Pounce - I like this evolution, but i was thinking it might do a little more. For example multiple beasts have a pounce ability and I believe it usually gives them a chance to knock the target down. Or maybe just give an attack bonus when you use pounce.

• Evolutions: Bite - I just wanted to point out a typo. Under bite it says "If your Eidolon possesses the reach evolution for either this attack or bite, it applies to both." I believe it should say "either this attack or gore". Additionally, you may want to specify that that is assuming the horns and maw are on the same head. I'm assuming that the benefit from reach would only apply if the horns(gore) and maw(bite) are both on the same head.

• Evolutions: Deep Sight - I just wanted a little clarification on this evolution. Does it have a limited range like darkvision? Also does perfectly mean that unlike with darkvision you can see colors in darkness at any distance? It also says "any kind of darkness" is that referring to magical darkness? As in you can see through the darkness created by the spell darkness.

• Additional Evolutions: Camouflage - I thought it would be really cool if there was some sort of camouflage evolution included in the list. Many beasts have natural camouflage to stay hidden whether they are the predators or the prey. This ability could give advantage on stealth checks while in the wilderness, or possibly when in shadows or partially obscured by foliage or something.

• Shield Ally - I was curious about this one. It says that your eidolon provides "half cover" which, without looking it up, I believe is a -2 to ranged attacks. I was wondering if this was the intent or if it could possibly provide essentially an AC bonus against melee attackers as well. It is named Shield Ally so i assume it is supposed to be a defensive bonus, but half cover would mean it only works if you are being targeted by a ranged attack and only if you were on the opposite side of your eidolon from your attacker.

• Other - I also had a concern about healing the eidolon. I was hoping to have a way to heal the eidolon short of a long rest. Under eidolon creation it says you start with 6 hit points and gain 4 per level which is the same as having 1d6 hit dice. Perhaps you could specify that they have d6 hit die, and that they can spend their hit die to heal during a short rest in the same way as a normal character would. Or maybe add a summoner specific spell to heal the eidolon.

Sorry for all the questions. I really like the look of the class, but I like to try to get all the possible questions out before I take a new class to my DM. Thanks for all the hard work on an awesome class.

Hey hey hey! Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to address your questions and feedback as best I can (thanks for being so thorough!).

• The stat increase for base forms is not a bad idea, and one I actually considered when making the class, but I was concerned about overall balance. Having tested the class, I'm actually less worried about it being unbalanced as I originally was, so I might consider powering some things up, and this is certainly a good place to start.

• Swift is as it is because it's supposed to be an alternative to giving your eidolon more legs. By giving your eidolon the Swift evolution twice for the same cost (2 points) you gain the same increase to speed as you would from the Legs evolution (10 feet) without, well, actually adding more legs. This may be, at least in part, rectified as one of the possible changes I might make is increasing the number of evolution points.

• As for pounce, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't really feel like it needs anything extra. The ability to move 80 or more feet and attack is maybe not the best, but still pretty good.

• Bite does need to have its wording fixed, yes, so thank you for pointing that out.

• Deep Sight should work like the Warlock invocation Devil's Sight. Another one I'll have to rewrite.

• I like camouflage. Thanks for the suggestion! I'll try to come up with ways to work it into different areas (like the Ranger's favored terrain or something).

• Unless I read half cover wrong in the rules (not even remotely out of the question), it should provide a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex saves. As for the whole "cover" part of it, well... don't think about specifics too hard. It is a fantasy world with magical beasts etc etc etc.

• And, finally, yes, Eidolons should be able to spend hit die during short rests like any other character. I'll add that into the creation section. Thanks for pointing that out.

Whew. Okay, I think that's everything. Thanks for your feedback and I'm glad you like the class!--Busterwilde3 (talk) 04:58, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Aspect

When applying evolutions to the summoner, do they apply all the time, or only when the Eidolon is summoned?

Good question! Evolution points used by the Summoner with the Aspect class features are always active.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 04:12, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Proficiency

When it comes to evolution's that give attacking moves, does the Eidolon have proficiency in these attacks?

Yep! The Eidolon is considered proficient with any attack granted to it by an evolution.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 05:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Questions

Super stupid question. Does the Eidolon get its own turn? Make it roll for initiative aswell?? And for the weapons, does it make its own weapon or you'll have to give it a weapon? Does the summoner have to carry its equipment around?

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Yes, an Eidolon has its own turn in the initiative order. If your Eidolon is proficient with manufactured weapons, you'll have to buy or find it one it can use. Your last question is probably going to be up to your DM. I would say any equipment your Eidolon is carrying is taken with it when it's dismissed, but your DM might say otherwise. --Busterwilde3 (talk) 05:32, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Eidolist: Improved Bond

I have a question regarding Improved Bond in the Eidolist archetype. Isn't Improved Bond useless because of Maker's Call and vice versa? They're the same ability but Improved Bond have ulimited amount of uses while Maker's Call doesn't?

Otherwise, amazing class. Great job.

Umm, no. See, Summoning your Eidolon calls it from its own demiplane to you. Maker's Call calls it from the material plane while it's already summoned to your side. If you wanted to use Improved Bond like Maker's Call, it would take 2 turns (1 turn to banish your Eidolon, and then another to summon it again). Although, thinking on it, that's not really a huge improvement, is it? I may add some functionality to Improved Bond to actually make it worthwhile.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 10:49, 8 August 2017 (MDT)

I see that you have altered Improved Bond to allow the player to use Maker's Call a bonus action. If i may, I have a suggestion for Improved Bond. You could have it so that when the player get Improved Bond they can use it as a reversed Maker's Call. They can still teleport the eidolon to the summoner but now may also teleport the summoner to the eidolon.

Maybe. It would certainly add tactical merit, and I don't think it would be all that overpowered. I'll definitely consider it.--Busterwilde3 (talk) 11:03, 11 August 2017 (MDT)

Spell Slot

So I just notice, I thought this class was using the same method of the warlock spell slot, but instead of getting a 5th level slot on lvl 9 they get it on lvl 17 instead, may I ask why is that? Is it to counter balance the Broodmaster archetype it has? (nevermind, stupid question, thats how half casters work, haha)