Talk:Sorcerer, 5th Variant (3.5e Class)

Rating

Power - 1/5

Wording - 1/5

Formatting - 1/5

Flavor 4/5 over all 1.5/5 good idea badly done

I really disagree with this rating. Firstly, it simply rates things at 1/5- why? Disliking it isn't a sufficient reason to just give it a 1. It has to reflect the quality of the article. Secondly, the rating makes no sense- rating it a 1/5 for power means that the class is as broken than a wrecked bridge, which the article clearly isn't. I'm not saying it's got perfect balance (nor am I saying it hasn't), but it definatly deserves better than a 1. The same goes for wording and formatting. Finally, the rating is not backed up. "good idea badly done" is not backing up the rating in any way, shape or form. --Sam Kay 06:46, 25 April 2009 (MDT)

Lord Dhazriel has always done good work, and this looks to be no exception, when it's completed. I, for one believe the spell point system should be used for all spellcasters... That said, if you want to make the sorcerer truly stand out, this would be the way. Mythos Specialist 09:14, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

Oh I never seen that... well anyway I decided to finish it. Should be done over the next few days hopefully. --Lord Dhazriel 09:20, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power 4/5 The only complaint I have in this department is that the Inborn Magic Blast seems a little powerful for being an ability that can be used unlimited amount of times, unless you meant to give it a limit then I wouldn't have a problem, but maybe have it increase by 1d6 ever odd level like sneak attack, you could even have it increase every level except 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th since those levels gain a bonus feat and it would still deal 16d6 damage, or something along those lines. -Sarrow 11:58, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

Wording 5/5 This is all done good, easy to read, everything is understandable. -Sarrow 11:58, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

Formatting 5/5 Formatting is all good, there are enough links to all the important parts of the class. -Sarrow 11:58, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

Flavor 5/5 This is good, doesn't have all that campaign info, but I can't complain, non of my classes do either. The idea of the class and what it can do is good enough for me. -Sarrow 11:58, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

Overall 19/20 Good variant, like the idea of using the spell points system and giving an inate spell like ability to deal damage. -Sarrow 11:59, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

Better Spell Point System

I'll be uploading a new, significantly better spell point system tonight. Perhaps this class should be updated to use it? Surgo 13:03, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

I am going to wait to see it on the wiki, so the viewer and myself shall be able to refer to it. --Lord Dhazriel 13:11, 8 May 2009 (MDT)

I am interested in the mana-based system, I think it actually worth a section of the page with an alternated progression. I work on it when I can, pretty busy lately. --Lord Dhazriel 15:10, 12 May 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 2/5

Ignore Material Component is sketchy. It's all well and good if you don't want to be throwing around a lump of bat guano every time you need something dead in a hurry, but once you start getting into the larger values of material components cracks start showing. The most obvious exploit for this ability is free Identify's. This feature is overdoing it, and you're better off simply giving them Eschew Materials at first level. At the very least you should reduce how much gold the sorcerer can ignore and prevent this from stacking with the spellcasting levels provided by other classes.

Inborn Magic Blast is broken and hell and should not be here. At all. It's effectively a big "get bent" to the Warlock class, having a longer range and more damage dice than their Eldritch Blast. That, combined with the Sorcerer's regular spellcasting make this class much more powerful that either the regular Sorcerer or the Warlock. This feature should not be in this class.

Economic Spellcasting is probably a bad idea. It's already far more powerful than comparative feats, and it is always in effect. Effectively negating a spell level is something that is going to make heads turn, and especially considering that you want to use spell points there is really no situation where this caster won't be using metamagic, which defeats the "cost vs reward" balance of metamagic in the first place.

And while we're talking about spells: spell points are not the norm. You shouldn't be making classes assuming such.

This class needs fewer skill points and more skills. I presume you intend this to be a more skilled class than the wizard. Well. at 6 + int modifier you can buy...every single skill on the list. In that respect the class needs more skills. However, you class can cast spells, and spellcasting classes typically have fewer skill points. So you need to go both ways to achieve balance.

Specialization seems fair at first, but you have to realize that some sorcerers go through their entire careers using only three or four schools in the first place. It's not a fair trade to allow sorcerers to specialize. By comparison, when wizards specialize they lose an entire school, which is also the potential to ever cast that school. Sorcerers instead lose the potential to cast five or six spells. Besides, it's a part of the balancing act for Sorcerers to need to choose their spells known list carefully. Extra spells known should be offered sparingly, if at all.

And Alternate Specialization, while not a bad idea in itself because it appears as a feat, should not allow a character access to a domain power. The ability is too wild. It's possible for a sorcerer to pick up a domain power like "destroys undead rather than turns them" or "add Extra Turning to their list of feats known". You should probably just discard it as well, and simply let the player chose to take the Arcane Disciple feat. A player could choose Energy Substitution as one of their bonus feats to emulate the effect you're looking for. --Ortin 16:34, 29 August 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 2/5

Terrible to read. Not up to standard. Too informal and the sentence structure is choppy. Some abilities (like Alternate Specialization) are unclear. Make sure everything is explicit. Leave nothing to the imagination. And if possible, copy and paste from the SRD less. --Ortin 16:34, 29 August 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5

Well organized. --Ortin 16:34, 29 August 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 3/5

Your intentions for this class are pretty clear, but the descriptions themselves are threadbare. Flavour needs expansion beyond "guys and gals that cast spells".--Ortin 16:34, 29 August 2009 (MDT)

My biggest gripe is that you flat out declare players should multiclass into a prestige class as soon as they gain Economic Spellcasting. That speaks less of a concerned Sorcerer tweaker and more of a munchkin. So yeah, needs work.--Ortin 16:34, 29 August 2009 (MDT)

First: The core sorcerer was meant to multiclass as soon as he can, there no shame in admitting that, he lose absolutely noting if he choose the right class. At 6th level is were most good PrC become available, I never made a single sorcerer with more than 6 level in the actual class (I often play sorcerer). Most sorcerer players do, this is a variant it not meant to piss off sorcerers player. Secondly how is inborn magic blast even broken? The warlock suck, we shouldn't compare it to the warlock then. It a way for the sorcerer not to be fucked when he run out of spell points (something that shouldn't happen in the first place).

Secondly: Wording, as state way before I am not a native-english user. Rate as wish anyway, it not likeI am hanging on this site much anymore though. Take this as a note for the future though.

Third: Economic Metamagic: Who care? This guy is casting his spell spontaneously, he need cheaper metamagic if he wants to keep up with the prepared gods. Economic metamagic make the sorcerer's life much easier

Fourth and last: Skills, who is that actually unbalanced, okay other spellcasters have few skill point. Don't forget the wizard use Intelligence, and intelligence grant bonus skill points. Usually wizard have a minimum int of 18, so 6 skill points per level. The sorcerer know fewer spells, so he actually require skills to remain useful out of battle to the party. Finally, all argument presented against the class were: it look overpowered, perhaps if you could actually prove it is in fact overpowered (I can prove it not, if you ask I can demonstrate it). --Dhazriel 16:51, 29 August 2009 (MDT)

Inborn Magic Blast is broken for three reasons: ranged touch attack, 1d6 per caster level, at will.

Think about this for a second. Touch AC is by and large the lowest AC value a character will have (barring some absurd exceptions involving tiny creatures and monks). What you have here is an at will power that rivals the damage of spells at a comparable level but can be used whenever you want, and attacks an easy to hit value. Touch AC rarely goes over 16-17 near epic levels, and in the beginning is around 10-14, changing it from a fallback ability to a combat staple. It's functionally equivalent to a non-elemental Polar Ray, which is an 8th level spell that has barely a quarter of the range. At will.

While I don't understand how "warlocks suck" justifies Inborn Magic Blast, I do know that typically when a class whose core power is to cast spells runs out of them, they are fucked. At that point, a spellcaster should be using spell trigger magic items and other trinkets that require spellcasting ability to be useful. Alternately, should a sufficiently powerful spellcaster actually run out of spell slots then that may be a sign that the party has been adventuring for too long and should rest.

Saying "well a wizard usually has that many skill points" is a terrible rationalization for increasing a class's skill point per level gain. Besides, you fail to see that with six skill points per level the sorcerer runs out of useful class skills at that point. He has four class skills that aren't a profession/craft skill, yet he has six skill points per level. Past those four basic skills, you spend two skill points per rank on whatever cross class skill you want. On the other hand, a wizard's intelligence synergizes with his skill list because he has more skills. A lot more, as in every Knowledge skill in the game. He can use those extra skill points he's getting. And even so, clerics aren't complaining that they don't have enough skill points. That's because there isn't a skill check to raise the dead.

If you want to expand the sorcerer's class list then you should focus less on his raw skill point gain and instead increase his list of class skills. Right now, he doesn't actually do anything the base sorcerer can't.

But just the same, a sorcerer doesn't need a lot of skills because he can cast spells. Why should a sorcerer every take ranks in climb? He can fly. Why should he take ranks in swim? He can breathe underwater. (And isn't burdened with heavy armour.) Spellcasters are useful because they can cast spells. And when speaking of out of battle usage to the party, you need to realize that you're competing with the rogue, who doesn't everything skills based better than you. Conversely, you are going to out spell his Use Magic Device check.

Now, I want to argue against Economic Metamagic, but it occurs to me that you consider spell points to be the default spellcasting system, and it does such strange things to metamagic that I can't argue for or against it. I do know that in the context of spell slots it is overpowered simply because it far exceeds any comparative 6th level base class ability. If it were in a prestige class, then possibly it's even, but it appears far to early in a core progression to have any hint of balance.

For your reading pleasure I have linked an alternate sorcerer developed by Pathfinder that does very interesting things to the base sorcerer. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/sorcerer.html#sorcerer

I'm somewhat curious as to what proof you would use to declare this class balanced. --Ortin 23:59, 15 September 2009 (MDT)

Polar Ray suck as a spell, terribly. You have much better uses for your 8th level slot than taking such a trash spell. Inborn Magic Blast is weaker than most spell at any level you are. At every single level of the game you have something better to do than wasting a perfectly good standard action to deal a mediocre amount of damages (compared with what damages dealer actually does, it is mediocre). A sorcerer is going to use Inborn Magic Blast only when an actual spell would overkill a target, or as backup weapon against creature with really big saves (and terribly huge amount of hp to make sure you are only a minor annoyance).

2 skill point per level is horribly lame, and a sorcerer only know as much spells for his entire career. He must focus on good spells, spell that kill people fast and hard (such as Finger of Death, Enervation, Glitterdust, Color Spray and so on). He don't have the spell known slot to waste for utilities spells, and I am sorry but I think it actually nice for a character to be able to do something without wasting a spell slot. I just realized the skill list need a big makeover (too bad this version of the class is actually outdated and I am not allowed to point out the fully-updated one).

If I wasn't actually lazy I would make a list of action and spells you better be using instead of Inborn Magic Blast. Take note, I rarely seen in my entire D&D carer any spellcaster run out of spells, good spellcasters are going to cast one spell and the battle will be practically over. Take note this sorcerer variant was made to compete with God-Wizard not Fireball-Hurler type of Wizard. --Dhazriel 14:34, 16 September 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 2.5/5 I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 for power because it too vastly increases the power of the sorcerer through the class features, i.e., the bonus feats, the Economic Metamagic ability, the inherent and improved Eschew Materials, and the Inborn Magic Blast ability, which seems to function regardless of remaining spell points. It also increases spells known slightly so a 3rd level sorcerer can use 2nd level spells like a wizard is able to, rather being a level behind in spellcasting ability. Also, such high skill points per level is a bit much. Maybe up it to 3 or 4 per level, but 6 doesn't fit with the sorcerer theme. I feel like these changes make the class too overpowered. If I were rewriting the sorcerer, I would just add a bonus feat every 5th level like the wizard and possibly a bonus feat at first level limited to a bloodline feat.

Wording - 2/5 I give this page a 2 out of 5 for wording because the writer's grammar is somewhat lacking and there is a good amount of vagueness in the phrasing of some abilities. For example, I could not tell whether this sorcerer variant has the typical ability Summon Familiar or whether the Inborn Magic Blast ability uses up spell points.

Standards and Formatting - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 for standards and formatting because it is formatted properly, but is missing the "Sorcerers in the Game" section, and the grammar is sub-par.

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 for flavor because the ability being able to channel raw magical power and being able to ignore material components fits the idea of an innate caster better.

Overall Rating - 2.6/5 This needs some serious work.

Jude Paxmrosy 17:40, 17 April 2011 (MDT)