Talk:Sangromancer (3.5e Prestige Class)

Not the first prestige class I've ever designed, but it is the first I've uploaded here. What do you think? It's a hard one to balance, since thanks to the nature of hit points, all the class abilities are basically free until you go over the limit and die (which a clever player doesn't do). I thought about making the cost a penalty to Constitution that lasts until the character rests, but that'd probably be a lesser cost.

Another balancing option is making the class gain levels of existing arcane spellcasting class less often, but considering many of the official prestige classes (say, archmage) have steady gain in that department, I'm not so sure. Again, what do you think? Cancelion (talk) 01:38, 8 April 2014 (MDT)

Balance wise I think there are several major concerns for the class. Specifically the level one ability and level three ability (the level 5 is actually a bit underpowered but I will get to that in a minute).

First the level one ability. When you first get it it is useful, however, when you reach level 5 it becomes insane. I can effectively double or triple amounts of high level spells while taking low amounts of damage (I will give numbers in a second) without an issue for the most part, and it has no limits, so in theory the only limit factor is hp (and I will outline that as well).

At 14th level wizard/5th level sangromancer the following can be said. First he has at least a 16 constitution (before adjustments), access to 9th level slots, and an average starting hit point pool of 105. Now we add in manual of bodily health +4 and a girdle of constitution +6 to receive 95 additional hp taking the character to 200. For the cost of 9d6 (maximum of 54) hit pints I can cast nine level 9 spells in a single day when a 20th level wizard is only capable of 4. Stacking with the increased DCs that makes this incredibly painful to contemplate. Also I haven't dug out the other HP options that would vastly improve your spell casting options. With sorcerers this is even more painful since they have more higher level slots so at 15 sorc/5 sang they could cast 10 level 9 spells for 6d6 and if they replaced the 7th level spells as well would provide 16 9th level spells for 18d6 (max 108). That is a whole lot of firepower for one wizard considering what 9th level spells can do. Tivanir (talk) 13:38, 8 April 2014 (MDT)

Whoops :D I knew it was off-balance, but with the numbers you've given I can see just by how much. This is going to be a hard one to balance. The idea is that the more you cast spells, the likelier it is that you succumb (a kind of greed aspect), so clearly it can't be tied to hit points. Constitution would be a better balancing point, but it's still fairly easy to rise to ridiculous levels.

The biggest problem is really the metamagic ability. Damage is, as you said, fairly sub-par (but nice for those players who enjoy proper blasting) and +5 DC, while strong, is nothing you couldn't do otherwise. I don't get your numbers, though: the ability doesn't allow a caster more 9th-level spell slots, merely that he can add metamagic feats to spells without rising their level. A wizard 14/sangromancer 5 could still cast only two 9th-level spells per day (since he's the equivalent of a 18th-level wizard), but he could apply metamagic feats to them to his hearts content by spending maximum hit points. What am I missing? Is there a metamagic feat that allows one to prepare 9th-level spells at lower slots? The wording is hard to get right, so I may have made it too hard to figure :P

Making the class only three levels long would alleviate some of the problems (since you couldn't spend as much of your hit points), but then again, would make dipping even easier. And I always could remove all (or nearly all) "+1 to existing arcane spellcasting class" from the progression, but that would really make the class tedious to level. Cancelion (talk) 23:23, 8 April 2014 (MDT)

One suggestion I have is make the damage taken for the reduction tiered. For example 1-3rd level spells cost 1d6 per level reduced, 4th-6th are 2d6 per level produced, and 7th-9th are 3d6 per level produced. It makes sense to have a higher cost associated with stronger magic. The +5 is only really problematic when you combine it with the massive amount of 9th level spells you can use the ability for. Tivanir (talk) 15:30, 9 April 2014 (MDT)

But that's just the thing, a spellcaster doesn't get more 9th-level slots from the class. A character can have a lot of spells the equivalent of 9th-level spells (for example, a sangromancer with at least four levels in the class could cast quickened cone of cold as a 5th-level spell, which normally is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell) but can't increase the amount of time stop or gate spells that he casts. Or am I completely blanking out here?

The tiered damage from higher-level spells sounds good, although I've also contemplated just making the hit point reduction a flat 2d6 with the metamagic aspect of the ability. I'm also thinking the increased damage from level 5 needs to be replaced: it's a pretty cruddy incentive to level in the class. Any ideas? Cancelion (talk) 23:52, 9 April 2014 (MDT)

Oh apparently I missed the part about it only applying to metamagic, my mistake. Ok that is more balanced but I don't see how it differs much from the arch magus now. Tivanir (talk) 07:12, 10 April 2014 (MDT)

I'd say the flavor is fairly different, and I think the "cheapen metamagic" as a gimmick is fairly unique - definitely something the archmage can't do. Thanks for all the commentary, btw, it's really helpful as I'm planning the fixes :) Cancelion (talk) 01:51, 17 April 2014 (MDT)