Talk:Psion (5e Class)

Current Balance issues: There are clearly those that are under the impression that balance issues have not been addressed for this class. However, after reading through both the logs and what is listed below, it appears to me that the vast majority of balance issues have been addressed. For sake of clarity (and to prevent editing wars), I would ask that any outstanding issues be listed here, above the main body of text. --Jager (talk) 15:52, 2 October 2017 (MDT)

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Just a quick question, it says psions learn cantrips according to the chart, but I don't see that number listed. Am I missing it somewhere? --fixed that, thanks! In addition to that there are a couple inconsistencies with the established 5e class/spells structure

• no other class has a dual stat requirement (wis + int), and there is no listed reason for the wis stat other than that psion gets a saving throw in wis (no DC effects, modifiers, extra manifestation based on WIS etc).

--See the Monk, Paladin, and Ranger, then get back to me.

• The two homebrew psionic damage cantrips would be the only non-scaling damage cantrips in the game

--Fair enough. I didn't think of that, thanks for the tip.
---Actually the one cantrip has an effect outside damage, so I did not scale it. Issues ---Other damaging cantrips scale to damage as well as have effects

• I have a flavor issue with this class, Psion's are known to counter the Vancian magic spell slot system and replace it with power points, a Psion not using this system just seams like a lie to me.

--I do not know what the Vancian spell slot system is, this seems like a personal opinion to me.
--Tubal-Cain (talk) 19:19, 5 July 2015 (MDT)
The Vancian Spell Slot System is the idea that spells are of specific levels, that you have specific amounts you can prepare of each level. IE It is the wizard/sorcerer system. Power Points were introduced to psion as a semi caster who can learn spells and then cast them freely for varying point costs. An equivalent concept would be if a sorcerer could sacrifice all his level 1 spells to cast an extra level 9 spell. Personally, I agree, it does not feel like a psion if its not using power points. read the link Lemiel14n3 provided below for the UA version of psion that only has 5 levels currently. Its very akin to the 3.5 psion casting system.--Cerin616, Drew (talk) 14:33, 25 January 2018 (MST)

this might help you come up with some more ideas you can implement Lemiel14n3 (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2015 (MDT)

Acuity

Additionally, there is an ability listed on the table called acuity that does not appear --Thanks for pointing this out, this was just a typo, I had an ability written down that I removed when making this page.

Feature

Just wondering if there was any reason that the first manifestation feature was moved from 3rd to 7th level? I'm currently using this in a campaign and we haven't met for a few weeks, I just noticed the change. Personally, I'd say it makes more sense to not gain a feature at level 7 than at level 3, and for the battlemind I'm playing at least, having that feature at third level is really important, because that and precision mind at 2nd level are what really allow you to be useful in melee combat without investing too heavily in strength and gimping something else important (Dex for Ac, Int, Con, ect.)
--Feel free to look back at an older revision, if you'd rather use it than the current version. And I am really flattered that somebody is actually using this. Just look in History if you want to see the older version you were using. It's just Level 7 was too late for the Extra Attack feature

---So then psystrike at level 3 at d4 then extra attack at level 5 and no feature at level 7?

Questions

I had a few questions about some of the features;

Psychoregenesis: does the effect stack multiple times for multiple Hd used during the same rest, or is it limited to once per short rest?

Aura of mental rend: does the advantage and disadvantage apply to any spell you cast, or only to spells targeting enemies within the area of effect?

Desperation: why is desperation limited to once per long rest when Psionic Reinforcement is usable as many times as you want? I realise Psionic Reinforcement is harder to get off, but it doesn't even take a bonus action or reaction, while Desperation takes an action. I wouldn't suggest making it unlimited, but maybe once per short rest, or increase it somehow.

Not 100% where this should be, but bloodied is not a mechanic in 5e, you use it on the Desperation ability. -- 19:31, 28 September 2015

I think someone's been messing with Psychoregenesis, because it doesn't list how often you can use it. Also, 3d10 extra psychic damage from Psystrike? What? SirSprinkles (talk) 22:21, 15 April 2016 (MDT)

Precision mind: For the option of "They may also add their Intelligence modifier to their AC." What type of action is this and what is the duration? Reaction against one attack? or Reaction with duration of until your next turn (like shield spell?) Bonus action for a full round? I'm currently using it as reaction that last until your next turn, but I'm thinking it should only be against the next attack. Thoughts?

New Changes

I redid the Manifestation features. I've come a long way in making classes since I made this one, and it was sloppy. The level at which the archetype features are gain mirrors a progression similar to the sorcerer.

I also removed a few of the common psion features to clean this up and admittedly- nerf it. --D'Artagnan (talk) 18:48, 20 December 2015 (MST)

Stub Removal

In regards to a "Dead Level" stub that was placed here, I am assuming that refers to a level in which no benefits are gained. Certainly, there are levels in which there are no class features, but like the sorcerer it's modeled on, a psion gains spell slots and casting level at those levels. Refer to the Spell chart! ---D'Artagnan (talk) 12:32, 7 March 2016 (MST)

backgrounds

What backgrounds do you recommend for this class? --209.97.85.48 13:11, 23 April 2016 (MDT)

Custom spells

Reading through this, I just have to wonder about the damage output and effects for some of these custom spells, don't get me wrong I love them, but some of them send up little warning flags to me

The biggest one being psion beacon, which has an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage. 4d6? The only other level one spell that is ranged and deals that much damage is Chromatic Orb, which requires a 50gp diamond, has 30 less range, and has no secondary effect. As well, it's one of the few damaging psion spells that don't require an Int save to take half damage. If anything, I think it would maybe make more sense to have a damage of this number on Mind Blast, since it both has the int save for the potential to deal half damage, and requires you to be within 10 feet of an opponent. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I think this thing either needs to have it's damage nerfed or an int save thrown in that if the target succeeds it deals half damage and there is no advantage on next attack against them. I mean, inflict wounds deals more damage, but it's also a touch spell and has no side effect... If the damage is just nerfed, then this could make a good damage spell with a nice side effect, because advantage on the next attack is pretty damn good.

Other than that, love the class, I used this one a couple weeks before you did the overhaul in one of my first games, but ended up swapping out the character warily, but am now regretting doing so looking at the changes!

---

Guiding Bolt. Literally does the same thing as Psion Beacon. --D'Artagnan (talk) 09:02, 14 May 2016 (MDT)

Psystrike class feature - Level 14 (Battlemind)

"At level 14, you can now channel your psychic energy through your weapons. You may expend a spell slot when making a weapon attack to deal an additional 3d10 psychic damage, and an extra 1d10 damage for every spell slot expended, to a maximum of 7d10."

Contrast with a Paladin's Divine Smite class feature, which does 2d8 radiant damage (+1d8 against undead and fiends), and an extra 1d8 damage for every spell slot expended, to a maximum of 5d8 (6d8 vs undead/fiends). Add 1d8 for Improved Divine Smite at level 11.

On average, a level 14 Psion using this feature does 16.5 damage (3d10) with a level 1 spell slot (keep in mind that they get spell slots of levels 6 and above as well). A level 14 Paladin does 3d8 with Improved Divine Smite, or 13.5 (18 against undead/fiends). With a level 2 spell slot, that's 22 damage vs 18 (22.5) damage; level 3, 27.5 vs 22.5 (27); level 4, 33 vs 27 (6d8 inc. IDS; against undead, 7d8, average 31.5).

TL;DR One of the Psion archetype features is objectively better than the Paladin's primary feature - even against undead and fiends when using 3rd-level spell slots and greater.

What is interesting to note is that where the Paladin's ability is based on the level of the spell expended, the Battlemind's ability is currently based on the number of spell slots expended. For balance purposes the Battlemind's ability should probably mirror the Paladin's Divine Smite.

In addition, changing all instances of d10s to d6s would probably finish balancing this class feature. 3d6 damage averages 10.5, as compared to the Paladin's base 13.5 (3d8). A second level spell sacrificed would give 17.5 (5d6) for the Battlemind, compared to 18 (3d8) for the Paladin (without improved divine strike). A 4th level spell would give 24.5 (7d6) for the Battlemind, compared to 27 (5d8 + 1d8 from improved divine strike) for the Paladin. Even without factoring the bonus damage to Undead and fiends, the Paladin would now pull ahead. I believe this is relatively balanced.

Wild Talent

Is it possible to do a psionic version of the ritual caster for this class?--Redrum 13:44, 25 November 2017 (MST)

Psionic Weapon

I saw a "magical" weapon in the Volo's Guide to Monsters called a Mind Lash. Is it possible to do a variant for this class? --Redrum 13:58, 22 December 2017 (MST)

Ioun Stone

Can psions use dull grey Ioun Stone to boost their powers? --Redrum 18:47, 21 March 2018 (MDT)

Mind Gem

Is it possible to create an item to boost the psionic abilities of this class? --Redrum 18:24, 2 May 2018 (MDT)