Talk:Prowess Warrior (3.5e Class)

Balance

This class is pathetic, at first level, it has the ability to move fast, and not be able to do things in combat, congratulations, you have made one of the most pathetically weak 1st levels imaginable. At second level, it gains a fighter bonus feat, making you a fast, first level fighter, who can't do things it combat. Third level is dead, and then, at fourth level, you finally gain something worth having, and even it sucks when compared to a barbarians rage (which would grant 8 bonus hit points, +2 to fort saves, +2 to will saves, +2 to hit, and +3 to damage [Two handed weapon] at that level). Then the further levels are pockmarked with dead levels, staggered bonus feats, and few further uses of that weak ability. All in all, even a monk is better than this class.

(PS. please be informed that the past revisions of your talk page are accessable through the 'history' tab on that page, and those people all have screamingly valid points) → Rith ^(talk) 13:23, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Good call. Thanks for the feedback. Will tweek accordingly. --Jay Freedman 14:11, 26 July 2009 (MDT)Jay Freedman

I'm with Rithaniel. I never thought I'd see something almost as weak as the SRD Fighter, but this is cutting it close (I'm confident that if you picked your feats wisely, a fighter could even go toe to toe with this class pretty easily). Prowess is nice but still relatively underwhelming (I'll refer you to Rith's above comparison to the Barbarian's rage), but otherwise this class is a fighter. Not only does the barbarian get rage and trap sense, but also damage reduction (quite useful) and uncanny dodge (also useful). There's no incentive to play this class except that it might be a little better than a fighter (and that's not saying much). - TG Cid 14:17, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

(Edit conflict, but I'm simply going to post what I had typed before)

Well, that first level looks a bit better now, and the prowess ability does seem to have been improved, but let me do a quick number crunch:

Level 1: Barbarian gets 2 bonus hp, +2 to hit, +2 to fort save, +2 to will save, and +3 to damage, Prowess Warrior gains 2 feats. (Bad for Prowess Warrior)

Level 4: Barbarian gets 8 bonus hp, +2 to hit, +2 to fort save, +2 to will save, and +3 to damage, Prowess Warrior gains 4 bonus hit points, +3 to fort save, +2 to hit, and immunity to fear. (Bad for Prowess Warrior)

Level 8: Barbarian gets 16 bonus hp, +2 to hit, +2 to fort save, +2 to will save, and +3 to damage, Prowess Warrior gains 8 bonus hit points, +6 to fort save, +4 to hit, and immunity to fear. (Decent for Prowess Warrior)

Level 12: Barbarian gets 36 bonus hp, +3 to hit, +3 to fort save, +3 to will save, and +4 to damage, Prowess Warrior gains 12 bonus hit points, +9 to fort save, +6 to hit, and immunity to fear. (Bad for Prowess Warrior)

Level 16: Barbarian gets 64 bonus hp, +3 to hit, +3 to fort save, +3 to will save, and +4 to damage, Prowess Warrior gains 16 bonus hit points, +12 to fort save, +8 to hit, and immunity to fear. (Decent for Prowess Warrior)

Level 20: Barbarian gets 80 bonus hp, +4 to hit, +4 to fort save, +4 to will save, and +6 to damage, Prowess Warrior gains 20 bonus hit points, +15 to fort save, +10 to hit, and immunity to fear. (Decent for Prowess Warrior)

From the look of this, the Prowess warrior is only going to be good at making fort saves, not taking damage, as melee characters will be doing ALL THE TIME, not dealing damage, as they need to be able to do, and only decently at making sure to hit. Also, several dead levels = bad bad bad. → Rith ^(talk) 14:35, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Eh, dunno about dealing damage. +10 to hit would certainly be great for Power Attacking when combined with Power Attack->Shock Trooper/Combat Brute/Leap Attack. --Ghostwheel 14:37, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

That deals with a build though, not with the actual class. Considering that Wizard builds can be moronically overpowered and great tanks (Shapechange into a Ravid and animate a city to do your bidding, for example), while the class itself is not all that overpowered. → Rith ^(talk) 14:43, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Thanks for the feedback. Will tweek, tweek. Peace! (Man you guys are good.) --Jay Freedman 14:48, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Here's an interesting idea; what if you could trade every +1 attack bonus and +1 to damage for +1d6 SA dice when you activate Prowess? That would also open up the twf ability--it won't be as good as the combat-oriented rogue, but not that bad either, and would give the character greater versatility in combat. --Ghostwheel 21:15, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

...tweek, tweek. Lets see how that looks. Hmm, a little something more and... Ok. thanks for the feedback. Good thinking. Peace! --Jay Freedman 22:14, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Ah, meant that you could get either +1 to attack and damage (good for two-handed fighters, average damage 3 if you power attack with a two-handed weapon) or 1d6 Sneak Attack (average damage 3.5, but need to be flanking) so that people could choose one or the other and thus open the class to more types of builds... --Ghostwheel 22:15, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Oh, right. I knew that! Haha. (Huh?) Ahem, anyways... I'll tweek it alittle. Ok, done. Well, choice aint bad? good thinking Ghostwheel. Peace! --Jay Freedman 22:34, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

No problem ^_^ Also, I'd make Shout a swift action (you don't take the better part of 6 seconds to shout, I think), especially since it's not very powerful as-is. --Ghostwheel 22:39, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Perhaps add that Prowess Warriors count as their level -2 when qualifying for Fighter-only feats? With all the extra feats, that'll let you pick up Melee Weapon Mastery and a few other nice ones at higher levels. --Ghostwheel 09:37, 27 July 2009 (MDT)

Makes the Fighter Redundant as a Dip Class?

I usually dip into Fighter for an extra feat (sometimes Power Attack)--doesn't this make the Fighter redundant in that category, giving two feats with one go? IMHO, you can make things worthwhile without frontloading them with abilities or making other classes redundant at what little they can do. --Ghostwheel 14:12, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Holy Monkey's! You guys are fast! I mean WOW! nice going boys. (Ahem...) Ok, so this class sucks. Ouch, well... thats okay. I'll just tweek, tweek alittle. Haha. Thanks for the epicly fast feedback. Peace!

Recent changes, it's a godsend. → Rith ^(talk) 14:37, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Posted that when both Power Attack and Dodge were given as bonus feats at level 1 :-P --Ghostwheel 14:38, 26 July 2009 (MDT)