Talk:Pop Star (5e Class)

Well this is cute, but unbalanced - to say the least - at the moment. We've got a +5 to attack rolls at first level... later on I see some unrestricted healing power... Do you want help balancing this? Marasmusine (talk) 13:34, 7 December 2023 (MST)

Talk:Pop Star (5e Class)

From what you said, I tried to make it a sort of support that can buff friends and harm foes. and please don't call it "cute". I did this in two days, so it's gonna still have some problems. And the +5 is for others, not the pop star. And to your offer, what do you have in mind?--frostboi27 12:47, 11 December 2023 (MST)

I apologize, I meant "cute" in an endearing way, not as an insult. The class has a theme of supporting allies, with magic and charisma. A good way to look at balance, then, is to compare it with the core book's Bard class. A bard inspires others, using Bardic Inspiration to give a +d6 to an ability check (average of 3), saving throw or attack roll, a limited number of times per long rest. It has a range of 60 feet to a creature that can "hear you".

The pop star gives up an action, giving a +5 to attack rolls for a "teammate". +5 is _quite a lot_. There's no limit to how many times this can be done, no limit to the range, or anything like that.

The other ability I'm concerned about, the 3rd level "Dance Along". No-one in the party ever need to use Hit Dice ever again, because the pop star can top everyone up to maximum hit points during or between battles. No character class is able to do this, even clerics have to use up spell slots to cast cure wounds.

That's just for starters. If I pick out something else at random - Continuous Slap - "As an action, The Pop Star slaps an opponent. Roll 2d20s, and for each number, you deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage, with no proficiency modifier applied. She can do this equal to her proficiency modifier." - I'm not even sure what this _means_. Is it a melee weapon attack? Is it d4 damage times the result on the d20s? (averaging 10d4 or 25 damage?) What does "can do this" mean? Number of times per long rest? Marasmusine (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2023 (MST)

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The continuous slap is a unarmed strike, and if it's used at level 4, it can be used 3 times, hence the pro mod. and the dance along, it only heals the pop star, and no one else. and say you roll a 17 on the 2d20s, it would be 17d4 damage, not times it, cause shes slaping the opponent that many times. also, the "can do this" means that's how many times it can be used. and the beautiful smile uses the pop stars action, so shes doing a help action, but different, and at a SIGHT distance, they need to see her to gain the effect, and the buff is only for the attack roll, not the damage. and as an unrelated question, are you a good artist? If you are, maybe you can draw a pop star type of character to put on the page? I couldn't find any good pics from the web.and what is MST? frsotboi27 2:38, dec 8, 2023.

So I understand that the slap can be used proficiency modifier number of times and thank-you for clarifying it is an unarmed strike, but what I'm getting at is when does it recharge? Short rest, long rest? Also 17d4 is an average of 42 points of damage which is a _lot_ of damage for a character at any level, let alone 2nd level.

Recovery of hit points should _always_ use up some kind of resource. In the core game this means spell slots, or hit dice, or a potion (but also see the Paladin's Lay on Hands feature)

As for art, I _used_ to be an artist 20 years ago, I drew fantasy art all through my school years and trained at college to be an illustrator, but my career path took me in a different direction. However, I have been having some success recently at using Dall-E 3 to make illustrations for wiki pages, so if you're not opposed to that I could create something for this page. What do you envisage? Marasmusine (talk) 15:11, 8 December 2023 (MST)

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So, they recharge by the short or long rest. and i'm thinking of reducing the slap dice to only 1 d20. cause you're right. and what i'm looking for is pink with bows an a dress, maybe a kitsune race, and a female.--frostboi27 12:47, 11 December 2023 (MST)

Not sure how "cute" you want it, but this is what Dall-E 3 gave me. I also recommend reading and understanding the D&D core classes, especially Bard (as it is a similar support class), to understand how things are worded and what the expected power/capabilities are at key levels. Marasmusine (talk) 08:44, 11 December 2023 (MST)

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For one, that is amazing. and for two, I will try to redo this and be more specific, but otherwise, its not that overpower now or needs more tweeking?--frostboi27 12:48, 11 December 2023 (MST)

Glad you like the image! I can't take credit, since it was AI. For the class, I need to give it a proper look, I've only glanced, byt I think it's mostly a case of adapting to standard convention. For example, the soul singer's "Pied Piper": you use an action and it lasts for 5 turns. That doesn't really make sense? An action is one thing you do on your own turn, so do you spend an action for each of those turns to sustain it? And the 5 turn duration itself, while not "unbalanced" or "broken" there shouldn't really be anything that lasts for a fixed 5 turns. Assume that a typical battle takes 1 minute (or 10 turns). If you want an effect to last for about 1 battle, you say it has a duration of 1 minute. Otherwise, you manage it from turn to turn, so it has a duration of 1 turn. Look at Bard, and see how their music-related features work. Marasmusine (talk) 11:43, 11 December 2023 (MST)

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So I get what you're saying, and I can try to do that. I mean, the pied piper was a good idea to me at first, and I can edit it to make the times more understandable.--frostboi27 12:48, 11 December 2023 (MST)

If you don't mind my saying, the way to write this would be "You can cast the confusion spell as a 4th-level spell without requiring material components. When you do so, you choose one race or type of creature. Creatures of other races or types automatically pass the saving throw." ... or something like that. Marasmusine (talk) 11:58, 11 December 2023 (MST)

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ooh. I get what your saying, and will do that. what else? And I need to print the final product by 2:45, so I can show it to my DM, which the campaign is today.--frostboi27 12:49, 11 December 2023 (MST)

Hoo boy, I'd love to collaborate on this with you, but it's 7pm where I am right now. If you don't mind me editing the article directly, I'll do what I can to bring things up to standard. I can't guarantee balance, such things need to be playtested. Marasmusine (talk) 12:23, 11 December 2023 (MST)

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OK. I mean, tomorrow you can tell me all the things you want to change, and I can think about it, if that's ok with you.--frostboi27 12:42, 11 December 2023 (MST)

eeeh, okay, but having looked at it, there's a lot! I've made a few changes if that's okay.

For example, you wouldn't normally get class features on a level where you also get a new spell slot level. But I see there is Extra Attack in unusual places, and also "Popular Showbiz" but I can't see what that does. I think _1st level_ is okay, which is enough to get you playing, but more work is needed. I'm happy to collaborate. Marasmusine (talk) 12:56, 11 December 2023 (MST)

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I mean, the attack is early, and the popular showbiz is for the second level, where you get more stuff.Mainly, what levels are you thinking of?--frostboi27 12:58, 11 December 2023 (MST)

So at 5th, 9th, 13th and 16th level, you gain a spell slot level, which is considered the "feature" for that level (you'll see what I mean if you look at the PHB classes). The execption is where there is a natural progression of a class's existing feature... you'll see this with some cases of Extra Attack.

Is "Stylish Showbiz" the same as "Popular Showbiz"? Marasmusine (talk) 13:06, 11 December 2023 (MST)

By the way, since we're both online at the moment, I'm happy to chat to you on the D&Dwiki Discord either via text or with microphones. Marasmusine (talk) 13:11, 11 December 2023 (MST)

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oh my! I just realized that I messed up the names, and they are the same! I should fix that. Thank you for pointing that out.--frostboi27 13:09, 11 December 2023 (MST) and to your request, OK! I'll be happy to! but where can I find it?--frostboi27 13:15, 11 December 2023 (MST) Sadly, I can't. I for one cant find the one your speaking of, and if I was on it, it wouldn't let me.--frostboi27 13:20, 11 December 2023 (MST)

Any luck with the Discord at this link? https://discord.com/invite/EnsRxSV

sadly, no. it wont load and wont let me in. anyway, I have to go in a few minutes, and i need to print this too. can we do this tomorrow?--frostboi27 13:29, 11 December 2023 (MST)

Sure! I'll be around 9:30am GMT. Marasmusine (talk) 13:30, 11 December 2023 (MST)

Ok, but remember, where in different time zones.--frostboi27 13:31, 11 December 2023 (MST)

So i'm looking at this, and I'm kinda sad. The popular showbiz tells how many times it can be used in the description, and honestly, your changing it too much. the idea has changed TOO much, and some of this is to diffrent from the idea.can we please talk and change it back or somewhat back?Like the disarming voice, it was good the way it was, and the uses to. the attacks i'm ok with, but not disarming voice, continuous slaps tho is ok, and copycat, its a penalty, so if you see a guy cast fireball, she copies it, and takes 3d4 necrotic, cause its a 3rd level spell, and its not a reaction cause she remembers it, and you don't decide to do it entel you see it. --frostboi27 09:01, 12 December 2023 (MST)

I've reverted my changes but the article will need to change if it's to remain on the site. Currently it is overall overpowered and some parts just don't function. I can try and explain why I made some of the changes if that helps. Marasmusine (talk) 09:12, 12 December 2023 (MST)

I mean, not all of them, some where good. its just the disarming voice and copycat i'm worried about, and i would like to know why, maybe we can work it out. I mean, the emo rock was a good idea for grump face, and the no extra attack, and everything but the disarming voice and the copycat.--frostboi27 09:45, 12 December 2023 (MST)

Let's have a look at copycat. The text is "If anyone used a spell (friend or foe) in a timeline from your last turn to this turn, you can copy it exactly. after you use the spell, you take 1d4 necrotic damage equal to that spells level. She can do this equal to her proficiency modifier."

We need to rephrase this using terms from D&D rules, because "in a timeline from your last turn to this turn" is not defined in D&D. Furthermore, as written, the person casting the spell could be on the other side of the world to you, so it needs some limits.

So the idea is 1) Someone casts a spell. 2) On your next turn (taking place either in that round, or next round), you can cast that spell.

This is what my rewrite did. You react to the spellcaster (this is how Counterspell works too!) and you make a note of what the spell is (I came up with the term "copymark" for this, which, uh, could be better). Then on your next turn before the end of the next round, you cast that spell.

The other things I changed were necessary balance changes: making sure it has a range, disallowing spells that have expensive material costs, and disallowing spells that are beyond your maximum spell slot level. Marasmusine (talk) 10:19, 12 December 2023 (MST)

I mean, it's an action, so how about the requirement is also intelligence 13, and can you put everything but the copycat and disarming voice back for now? I liked those changes.--frostboi27 10:28, 12 December 2023 (MST)

Okay, this is a tough sale on Copycat :) I'll make the edit.

To clarify with my version of Copycat, it is still an action to cast the spell you memorized. The reaction is literally the required mechanic for reacting to the first spell being cast. Marasmusine (talk) 10:44, 12 December 2023 (MST)

Ok, so the firework frenzy, the dj rapper, and the song of angels where deleted, and i wanted them there, did you delete them? Als, the reaction I guess can be done, but IDk about disarming voice. and the showstyle I would like to stay the same, cause the table doesn't match, and they list how many times they can be used, on each.And, I don't like that you changed adrenaline blast ether, I mean, if its overpowered, I can lower it to a +d10 for every thing, cause the spell haste was not in mind, and why is some of the spells red?. AND, are you a good storyteller, by any chance. I need a better intro.--frostboi27 11:07, 12 December 2023 (MST)

I can't see firework frenzy etc in the [1] before I made my edits. The spells in red are the spells that are not in the SRD (that is, they are not part of the "free to use" D&D document, so we can't publish those spells on the wiki). I might be able to write better intro. Marasmusine (talk) 11:17, 12 December 2023 (MST)

Ok, but what about adrenaline blast, DJ Rapper subclass, the popular showbiz, and the song of angels?--frostboi27 11:19, 12 December 2023 (MST)

I'll put adrenaline blast back. I'm not sure how to balance adrenaline blast, because I'm not clear exactly which stats you want to benefit. The haste spell gives you a boost to AC, Dexterity saving throws, speed, and an extra action (which can be an attack, there's your "weapon dice" bonus).

There wasn't a "DJ Rapper" subclass when I started editing.

I can put Song of the Angels back, but it must change if this article is to be balanced. You can't have a "40 second" duration and the benefits are too great. Marasmusine (talk) 11:24, 12 December 2023 (MST)

Ok, I can balance it out, and I'll work on "agein" on firework frenzy and DJ Rapper. I also Don't like the part of popular showbiz description, cause it says on the action how many times it can be used.--frostboi27 11:29, 12 December 2023 (MST)

It's a design standard to have features grouped to use a single resource. You will see this throughout the core classes: Spells slots, channel divinity, lay on hands, sorcery points, ki points, and so and and so on. This is in preference to having lots of features each with their own separate uses per rest, for several reasons such as giving the player more decision making, strengthening the class theme, and reducing bookkeeping. Marasmusine (talk) 11:48, 12 December 2023 (MST)

what i'm saying is some can be used more times than others, so they can be restricted. tho, only two times is _very sad_ and might need a higher useage. but, I finished the dj rapper and firework frenzy, to.--frostboi27 11:52, 12 December 2023 (MST)

So, all the changes needed are made, and i'm happy with it, except the introduction,and deadly Stare, cause the thing you listed was better, and all it needs is approval so I can remove the unbalanced template. and I would like to know what a PA kit is, cause I have no idea what it is.--frostboi27 12:46, 12 December 2023 (MST)

Ok, Im gonna get rid of the unbalanced thing, and if you don't agree, just put it back up, but dont make changes without my responce plz, cause the stuff you did last night wasn't, lets say "authorised".--frostboi27 13:23, 12 December 2023 (MST)

So, im gonna add sonthing called "fake tears" and replace it for mic counter, and i will add a microphone attack to shine bright feature.--frostboi27 08:40, 13 December 2023 (MST)

No-one needs authorization to make edits to the page, that's the point of this being a wiki! The authors of a page are everyone who contributed to it. If you do not want others to edit your work, you may prefer to publish it somewhere else such as a personal blog.

A "PA kit" is a portable speaker, it's what you plug a microphone into. Do a google search for "PA kit" and you'll see.

The class is not balanced yet. There are powerful class features on levels where you also get a new spell slot level, which I noted above. There are mechanics that do not work with the 5e system, such as effects lasting for "30 seconds" or "18 seconds", and some that need standardization with the 5e system (for example, Fake Tears should be imparting the Charmed condition on those it affects), and I've already discussed Copycat. Some stylish showbiz features say they use an action, and some don't. I haven't looked at the subclasses yet. Marasmusine (talk) 03:12, 15 December 2023 (MST)

Well, 18 seconds is 3 rounds, which is 3x6. and ill put that all of them are actions. and the fake tears is, say take a family guy episode in example, where peter, quagmire, cleveland, and joe go to prison, and they plan to escape, and joe pretends to fall of his chair and making a scene, and the guards evoid helping him. That's the jist of fake tears, It kinda spooks the foe and they are scared to approach the pop star, and feel bad and wont attack, and if anyone saw through the deception shes doing, and attacks her, she makes them pay and surprise attacks them. And what do you mean powerful class features when you get a spell level increase? AND the copycat attack has a disadvantage to it, so I don't see what your talking about. and I wanted to see if it was done, so its an official class, in terms.and as I asked on your talk page, I would like if you help me make my user page, cause it looks difficult--frostboi27 08:42, 15 December 2023 (MST)

If you have a look at the spellcasting classes in the Player's Handbook, generally you do not get a class feature on the same level that you gain a new spell slot level. The exception might be a gradual improvement for an existing class feature so that it remains viable (Song of Rest for the bard). The pop star at the moment at 5th level gets access to 2nd level spells, and song of the angels, and a new stylish showbiz and another usage of it. Marasmusine (talk) 12:17, 15 December 2023 (MST)

For Fake Tears, I suggest seeing how similar D&D effects work. 5e SRD:Spirit Guardians is similar (it makes an "aura" of difficult terrain and damages enemies if they fail a saving throw in the area). As a spell, it uses Concentration to sustain it, but you could instead sustain it from turn to turn with a bonus action up to some maximum amount (1 minute is typical for a combat encounter). Marasmusine (talk) 12:22, 15 December 2023 (MST)

I mean, then it wont be fake tears. The pop star is immobile when using fake tears, and I should put that she has to be prone to, but that spell, probably doesn't work the same way as fake tears works to an extent, and it lasts not the whole battle, cause it lasts entel ether the 30 seconds are up, or she is hit, cause her deception will be recognized by the foe, and everyone else. And the whole point of the stylish showbiz is to be unique, and not be something else.--frostboi27 12:44, 15 December 2023 (MST)

I don't mean copy the spell, but look at it to understand the general sort of way it should be worded in terms of action economy, duration, affected creatures, and so on. Look through the Player's Handbook and see how other classes handle similar things. Marasmusine (talk) 16:33, 15 December 2023 (MST)

So, I have to word it better? Like, make it more informative, I mean its pretty straight forward.--frostboi27 08:00, 18 December 2023 (MST)

It needs to use the rules for D&D 5th edition.

I will pick out one example at random.

Beatbox Blowout: At 18th level,as an action, once per short or long rest you can beatbox into your microphone, and everyone that can here it takes 2d20 force damage, and is deafened for 12 seconds.

Features aren't used "per short or long rest", as that implies you can stack up, say, 5 rests and then use the action 5 times. The correct wording is "You must finish a short or long rest before you can use this feature again."

"Everyone that can here [sic] it." - You must give a range on this. Look at _any_ audio-based effect in the game (harpy, androsphinx, etc) and a maximum range is given.

I do not know why this deals force damage instead of, say, thunder damage. Force is "pure magical energy" such as with magic missile.

It is convention not to use a d20 for damage dice, try 4d10 instead. You might ask "why not" but the game design assumes damage dice are d4s thru d12, and some other effect might do something with die faces.

It doesn't give a saving throw, it is automatic damage and deafening.

"12 seconds" is not a duration in 5e as I explained above, and it's not how duration effects work either. A standard duration might be 1 minute (the length of one battle), and allow a creature to repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns (although you'd have to allow a saving throw in the first place).

As written, this feature would allow you to walk into a town or a goblin lair or somesuch and wipe out the entire population in one action. This is not balanced. Earlier I recommended you read through the classes in the Player's Handbook, have you managed to do this? Marasmusine (talk) 11:37, 18 December 2023 (MST)

Yes, and I see what you mean. I will made changes so its more descriptive now. what else?--frostboi27 11:49, 18 December 2023 (MST)

I know I'm probably coming off as sounding mean, but nearly every part of this class needs changing in some way to correctly use the D&D ruleset (here's another example, "Smoothing Symphony" regains you hit points during a long rest, but you already regain all your hit points with a long rest). Once that is done, we can then look to see if it is actually balanced or not. I can't piecemeal go through the class describing everything that needs changing, that's not how my brain works, the effort I spend doing this is more than the effort I would spend making the edits. Also, classes are big, and I need to consider changes holistically, which often I can only do if I'm also making the edits.

I also want to say I'm giving this class so much attention because I like your concept and the idea behind some of the features. I want it to be good and for everyone to be able to use it in their games. Normally I would just go in and fix it but I'm trying to be less "bitey" more recently. Marasmusine (talk) 14:48, 18 December 2023 (MST)

I understand what your saying, and I understand what your implying at, and will change it.--frostboi27 14:57, 18 December 2023 (MST)

I have a question tho before you stop, I was wondering if you could help me with making my home page, cause It looks like its VERY hard, and I don't know where to start--frostboi27 11:19, 19 December 2023 (MST) NM, but it needs better editing.--Frostboi27 (talk) 12:18, 19 December 2023 (MST)

So, another favor. I would to make a "spectral ninja" class, and I need a picture. can you do dall-e--Frostboi27 (talk) 08:17, 3 January 2024 (MST) here is descriptuon I like" a green ghostly ninja high elf, with a transparent body, with a ancient sword in hand, with torn blue cape and robe, with a hood and mask, and a ghostly lantern, with his leggings ripped, showing his ghostly legs"--Frostboi27 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2024 (MST)

I can do eventually, I'm just waiting for my Dall-E 3 credits to regenerate. Marasmusine (talk) 02:50, 5 January 2024 (MST)

Ok, I can wait.--Frostboi27 (talk) 10:07, 5 January 2024 (MST)

I don't want to sound mean Frostboi but I really think you should check with others before the needsbalance template is removed. I don't think you have a full grasp of the 5th edition rules and classes are possibly the most difficult homebrew thing to balance. As always, I am not knocking your ideas, which are fun. Most of them need rewriting to actually work in the game. The first Stylish Showbiz, Adrenalin Blast, is a prime example. There's no range on the feature, "20 seconds" isn't a D&D duration, " get a d12 for their speed, AC, and attack rolls" doesn't make any sense. Marasmusine (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2024 (MST)