Talk:Necro Blade (3.5e Class)

Formatting

I suck at making tables. The familiars a necro blade is supposed to be able to choose from are bat, cat, rat, raven, snake, and toad. Suezotiger 03:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I fixed your table. Your editing was extremely confusing, but is that what you were going for? --Vrail 04:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I think the problem I had was that I copied the source code from the sorcerer page instead of copying it from the edit page. Suezotiger 15:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

SGT

I just did a Lv. 10 Same Game Test for the Necro Blade and it beat everything but the Runes, Mind Flayers, and Trolls. The former two due to the fact that I couldn't figure out how to do them. Should I be worried that this class is too powerful? I had 5 Human Zombies with me that took most of the attacks for me and the Fire Giant had a pretty epic fail on its Fortitude Save to avoid decapitation so I would have a had a much harder time against the larger enemies if I didn't have the undead.Suezotiger 02:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Quick thoughts:

You've got one save-or-die (keyed off Charisma, which introduces MAD in a melee character) and medium BAB, as well as reason to wear light armor.

Using a 32 point buy: 16/12/14/08/08/16. After two stat mods and the gauntlets (see below): 22/14/14/08/08/16. Let's say you've got +3 chain shirt (9000), a +3 weapon (18000), a ring of deflection +1 (2000), a cloak of resistance +2 (4000), and gauntlets of ogre power +4 (16000). That's 49k exactly. You're welcome to tinker with it obviously, maybe drop a +1 on the weapon for some potions or something, but until you do...

Feats: Hidden Talent (Explansion), Wild Talent, EWP (Spiked Chain), Stand Still, Ability Focus (Stand Still), Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Power Attack (four from levels, two from flaws, one from being human).

To hit is 7 (BAB), 6 (Strength), 3 (Weapon), 1 Weapon Focus = +17

AC is 10 (base), 7 (armor), 1 (deflection), 2 (Dexterity) = 20 (this feels pretty crappy, though unless I'm missing something obvious...)

Saves are +11, +7, +8.

HP is 100.

• Runes . You've got damage runes (e.g. explosive runes) and save-or-suck runes (e.g. symbols of insanity), etc. You have the two important saves, but no evasion and bad Reflex saves. This is likely a probable loss, maybe a definite loss.

• Fire Giant - Assuming you win initiative (luck - 50/50), you expand. He can't charge now, as you're likely to hit with Stand Still, and your average DC is 29 (without power attack, and you can fairly safely PA for two or so to push the DC almost totally out of his reach), which isn't easy for him, even with a good save. He has a limited number of rocks, and his attack roll with those is not so hot.

• If he wins initiative, he charges, ending one square short of you to avoid Stand Still (or he goes and you get it anyway). He attacks for about 35 (almost guaranteed to hit, even after I added some for PA). You can step back, move away, and expand. You're back to where you were in the above scenario, except with less HP. I'd call this a probable win.

• Young Blue Dragon: For demonstration purposes, let us suppose you do drop the ring of deflection for a potion of fly. It doesn't affect the last battle much and your AC is garbage either way.
  • The dragon can either hover, which means you meet it in the air, and have the chance to hit it with slay living (DC 18 -- after enervation and doom (etc.) this is a win). Or it actually flies, you ready a charge after drinking the potion, you hit it, it tries to fly away, you use Stand Still, it falls, you descend and do the slay living/other combo and win. Or it can choose to land and duel you, where you still have the options of Large size and Stand Still. I don't know if the dragon can play chicken back and forth between this and kiting/blasting you, so I'll call this a probable win overall, though it might close to a 50/50 in this latter scenario.

• Bebilith. The demon hides. The necroblade really has no chance of spotting it. If it uses web, the necroblade breaks out on an 18. A 17 with expansion. It enters a grapple. Combat over. Sure loss.

• Vrock. Probably a round-by-round case. It still has the Hide option, though not so much as the bebilith. It's got the same DR the bebilith had, and a similar-ish grapple check. If it enters a grapple you're still looking at a probable loss. The stunning shriek is 50/50. You can still enervate and slay living, but that's a multi-round tactic and means you have to take a hand(s?) off your weapon, which eliminates your Stand Still defense. Probable loss, maybe 50/50.

• Mind flayers. You've got a 35% chance of failing the mind blast save. I've never been good with probability, but I think that's about a 54% chance of failing one or the other in the first round. This continues each round. You might drop one on your first turn (slay living), at which point it's more manageable, but the odds of getting there don't favor you. Probable loss.

• Necromancer and Undead. There's a bunch of undead meat shields, with a wizard who can fly, be invisible, etc. You might actually manage to turn a few zombies, but anything you can do the wizard likely does better. He goes invisible (greater), flies, you can't target him, he enervates you, you die after a few, or glitterdust, or whatever. Odds really don't favor you here. I'd say probable loss, maybe definite.

• Trolls. If you've got anything left on the potion of fly you win, though that's more of a win for the item than a win for you (it's an equalizer in the dragon fight -- an tide turner here). Assuming you stay on the ground, you grapple equally with them, though you can't really keep them all away and they mob, flank, and shank you. Not sure I see you winning this one with crappy AC. I'm not even sure you can win with flight given the speed of their regeneration, though you could just say you've had a +2 flaming weapon. Let's say 50/50, maybe a probable win if we're generous.

• Shadows. They hide in the ground under you. You can ready a single turning attempt/attack to deal with one, at which point the others come out, Strength drain you, and retreat. Deathward gets you out of this, though I suppose in theory they could just wait out the duration. I was a little strict on a few others, so we'll say sure win here.

So, one sure win, two probable wins, two 50/50s, two probable losses, and two definite losses. Seems fine to me. The lack of save-or-dies and MAD sapping your Charisma hurt the most. Once you get more save-or-dies this gets a bit stronger, especially with a spellcasting focus rather than a melee one, but it's not quite as good as you might have imagined it. I also have not factored in any necromantic spells not in your list, as I really didn't feel like delving through the Spell Compendium (this took look enough as it is). -- Jota 07:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here (like what MAD means and why you chose the specific things) but if you think it's fairly balanced than that's fine with me. For all of the tests, I had five zombies with me (I figured 1d4+1 was fair and I rolled a 4) for most of the encounters which took most of the damage. I figured the necromancer's undead would just cancel mine out and I got initiative and decapitated him in the first turn. I never had the enemies try to grapple me either. Maybe if I had ever been a DM I would have realized to do things like that.

Also, there's a 42.25% chance of succeeding on both of the saves for the mind flayers which means there's a 57.75% of failing atleast one of them.Suezotiger 21:25, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

MAD means Multiple-Ability-Dependence. Basically, it means if you want to be a good Necroblade you need to have multiple good stats, not just one. I think I agree with Jota on his assessment of the SGT, assuming we keep in mind that he was using a faily optimized Necroblade with a strongly defined niche. I think the average player might even find this to be a teensy bit weak, unless they made the right decisions with feats. I think you did as well as you did on the SGT because you weren't playing the monsters as well as you could have.

My only concern is the full 9 levels of spell-casting. It seems that Jota went for a melee-oriented class, and I think a more spell-based version would likely cause more pain.--Badger 22:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem with going for a spell oriented build is the lack of area of effect spells and the low amount of spells that a necro blade has. Inflict Critical Wounds and Vampire Touch are the best damage spells you have and neither one of them is as strong as a level 10 Fireball (28 damage on average for Inflict Critical Wounds compared to 35 average damage for Fireball). A necro blade can only know one or two spells of a particular level and can only use them a few times per day.

For example, the level 10 Necro Blade I rolled up only has 3 level 0 spells, 2 level 1–3 spells, and 1 level 4 and 5 spell, along with 3 Lv. 0, 4 Lv.1–3, 3 Lv. 4, and 1 Lv. 5 as its spells per day. So it does have a decent spell casting ability, but it can't exactly throw spells around like a sorcerer/wizard and expect to be able to use them later on.

Edit: The main good points I see with a necro blade are its abilities to potentially kill things instantly with Head Hunter and slay living and turn them into undead as well as its ability to get temporary HP and tank.--Suezotiger 22:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I chose the specific things because that's how you win with a melee build. If you had a greatsword and couldn't expand I'd almost guarantee you lose almost half the battles you won using the strategy I indicated (namely the fire giant, the young blue dragon, and the trolls). I did, however, neglect animate undead, so, assuming you can find the right corpses (hydras, for example), you're set. If the runes are one-time things (it's not really specified), then you can just use pansy zombies to set them off. The wins you already have become easier. I'm still not wholly convinced you can defeat the bebilith, but I think the vrock becomes very much within the realm of possibilities, ditto for the trolls, and perhaps even the mind flayers as well. The wizard can have the same options (in terms of undead), so it's still down to you vs. him, and I'm still picking him for his superior spell selection and DCs. So yeah, I had not considered that (animate dead), but it's still less than a comparable wizard (see your loss in that challenge, though that particular loss really doesn't mean much), so at least in comparison to certain classes it's fine. It's probably fits in solidly alongside the beguiler, the wilder, and other full-casters who have limited scopes (maybe specialist wizards with crappy specializations). Whether or not that works for you is your call. -- Jota 01:19, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

No doubt a wizard eats this class (this should come as no surprise to anyone), I just think you may be underestimating the usefulness of spells. From what I can tell you only care about AoE and big damage spells, but you've got some pretty serious spells that don't outright kill. Blindness/Deafness (a level 2 spell) can probably take out an equal level wizard or sorcerer because it is against Fort, not Will. Again, Ghoul Touch, that can paralyze an enemy for up to 8 rounds, makes combat a lot easier. Ray of Exhaustion can also pretty well cut down a heavy hitter. Blindness against a Mind flayer from 200 feet away makes him blind (he's only got a +3 Fort defense) before he's within range to use Mind Blast, and he doesn't have blindsense/blindfight, so hitting him just got a lot easier. Granted, that beblith is still going to tear you limb from limb. Spectral hand + Bestow Curse (1/2 chance to act), then Vampiric Touch (guaranteed hit unless you roll a 1) twice a round, and a horde of your own zombie minions to distract the beblith might slow down the inevitable, however. --Badger 03:09, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because he is avery stronge class --85.250.142.109

Wording - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because not good inef --85.250.142.109

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 --85.250.142.109

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because --85.250.142.109

I edited your rating so it would show up properly, however it's not sufficient to actually qualify as a rating. Please add to the rating or it will be nullified. --Badger 19:05, 7 August 2010 (UTC)