Talk:Melee theurge (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

This is not SRD rules only build!

I'd say it is invalid, I do not think any sane DM would allow to join a Prestige Class with a temporary feature obtained via Polymorph self. Otherwise a 1st level Mage/1st level Cleric with a wand of Bull's Strength can enter the Mystic Theurge just because he can cast a second level divine spell (Bull's Strength, from Cleric list) and a second level arcane spell (Bull's Strength, from Wizard list). Moreover the Polymorph spell does not grant the Extraordinary abilities such Trackless Step.

The arcane hierophant requirement Trackless step is not a mistake. The class is meant to Ranger/Wildrunners, Ranger/Scouts and Druids.

On the other hand congrats for the nice use of `Alternate source spell.' Ezzetabi 20:52, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

the wand trick doesnt work either. its a spell trigger item. it lets you "activate" the spell, not actually cast it. other wise you could get here threw rogue levels and UMD---Name Violation 15:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as Name Violation said, spell trigger doesn't work, because you don't actually have the ability to cast second level spells. However, I think it would be funny for a GM to allow this build. The catch, though, is that whenever you don't have the trackless step ability, you can't use any of the features that are based off of it. So in other words, you can take levels in Arcane Hierophant, but any benefits garnered from ArH disappear whenever you don't have access to trackless step. In other words, as long as you are polymorphed into the bamboo spirit folk you are fine. But as soon as you polymorph into something else, you no longer get ANYTHING related to ArH, including BAB, saves, and any class features.

I'd definitely allow it as a GM, but not tell the player about the little consequences until it was too late. MUAHAHAHAHA! JazzMan 16:04, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

good to know we'd do the same thing to people--Name Violation 17:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, no wands. But the problem exists with the Scrolls. A scroll is a `Spell Completion Items`: using it the character actually cast the spell! `is the equivalent of casting a spell` says the PHB. Would you allow our Wizard1/Cleric1 to join the Mystic Theurge just because he has a scroll of Bull's Strength? I hope not. The Jazzman831 idea has a evil charm, but since GM should work to make the game fun I do not think it is really a good idea. Just say: `your character must be able without extra magical items a part of ingredients and focuses.' Elsewhere I saw that someone suggested to use a Ring of Evasion to meet the Requirement of Evasion... once again. I do not think so. Ezzetabi 20:52, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure you can use an "optimized" (euphemism for min/maxed) character in a fun game anyway. I was just saying that, per the rules, temporary abilities can be used as prerequisite for permanent abilities. The only time I've seen this officially was when talking about stat-boosting items meeting the requirements for feats. If it works in that situation, then why not in every other situation? I've never seen it officially ruled that way, but it's following precedent.

However, if you want the massive power advantages it gives, then you also have to suffer the benefits. The smart character would avoid taking this optimized character build; if he still decides to use it then it's his own darn fault. JazzMan 21:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Interesting point of view, I guess it depends what you mean for `Fun'. In my GM experience (I usually play, but I have my share) it greatly depends by the party. And it is very important shipping what the players like. A party of Munchkin min/maxer will fell happy when obliterating cosmic sized enemies with non-epic character or just saying: `AC 34, I hit right? So 103 HP of Damage!`.

On the other hand, if your party is of newbies or people who like more acting; your GMing should be different. Finally it is really a mess if different kind of players are mixed. `We played four hours and we had fun only a quarter!`

Returning to the main topic: can you give a precise reference? I am interested, the player handbook says only the opposite: if you lose the prerequisite you lose the Feat benefit (Cap5, phb); even if it works the other way the fact that just having a scroll in the belt allows level-up faster sounds so wrong to me. Ezzetabi 07:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually I didn't say anything about the scrolls. I don't think that having a scroll and a high UMD device actually makes you "capable of casting a 2nd level spell", it makes you capable of casting a second level scroll. The magic doesn't come from the caster, it comes from the scroll itself (put there by another caster).

I thought the rule I was referencing was in the FAQ, but I can't seem to find it (not that that thing's easy to search through with all of the non-core junk it's flooded with now). Maybe it was the rule you were talking about that I was thinking of. Point being, if you lose a prerequisite for a feat, you can no longer lose that feat, but the feat doesn't get erased from your character sheet. I was just making a logical jump: if it works for feats, why not for anything else? As long as you qualify at the tame you take the feat, you are allowed to "unqualify" at a later time, just don't expect to be able to use the feat/class feature/etc.

And obviously it depends on the kind of campaign you are running whether or not this build will be fun. But if you are playing in a high-power everything-goes campaign, then why worry about the nitty gritty details anyway? JazzMan 19:04, 8 May 2010 (UTC)