Talk:Medusa (4e Race)

Curious

Normally I'm not a fan of the idea of a Medusai (pl?) PC race, or of sexual dimorphism in monsters or races. But you have made a very intresting thing here. I have to say that while I'm still not sure I would allow it in one of my games (purely on fluff reasons not because of mechanics), I am curious about where you are going to take this. I am very intereted in what your plans are for the fluff, and I sure hope to see a few Racial Feats. Thanks for your time, and good job so far. -- Sepsis 08:10, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

I am basing the Medusa off the monster manual and in it their are several distinctions between the genders, mainly their gaze and how females seem to be Rangers and Rouges while males are Fighters and Rangers. Also, the females have snake hair while the males have no hair, so I believe these reasons enough of an excuse to semi-divide the race based on gender.

I agree. The fact that you have initally caught the flavor of the MM Medusa so well is what makes this an interesting race. There really is no way to present them without bringing in the male/female aspect of their species. -- Sepsis 10:26, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

After rereading the MM entry, there was something I was wondering about. Under Serpent Resistance shouldn't they have Immunity to petrification, and I was thinking poison resistance equal to 5 + one half your level + their Constitution modifier came closer to the examples given in the MM (although the numbers may scale high, it does seem like Medusa become nearly Immune to damage by early Paragon levels). -- Sepsis 10:36, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

I think the poison is good as it is as because at level 10, the Medusa Archer has Resist 10 poison while a PC has the same 5+(1/2 of 10). At level 30 a PC has Resist 20 Poison while a level 18 Medusa Shroud of Zehir still has Resist 10 poison. As for immunity to petrification, I was debating if that would make the race unbalanced as the Female Medusa has the potential to blast Petrify anyone. Heck, if a Level 30 Medusa used Petrifying Gaze on Orcus, coupled with penalties to saving throws from her allies, she could potentially Petrify Orcus. --Twisted9 11:23, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

Petrification is a huge defining ability of Medusa. Giving them Immunity to the Condition seems too iconic not to include. And honestly a level 30 Medusa with a PC class should give Orcus a moments pause. Although for balance you may want to allow for a Save to end the Petrification effect, but impose a -2 (or maybe even -5) penelty to save rolls vs. the Petrifying Gaze. Either way I'm thinking of using this write-up to make a Paragon level (16th) NPC Dragon Sorcerer as a villian, and I'm thinking a level 12 male Rogue as her consort. -- Sepsis 12:02, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

They are now immune to petrification. I also gave targets an extra saving throw chance to avoid being petrified, albeit at a -5 penalty. This makes the power potent, but it is a daily power meant for use at all levels and gives those with high fortitude a chance to shake off the effect before it becomes severe. Thanks for your input Sepsis. --Twisted9 12:26, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

I really think if you drop the effect of a Third Failed Save from Petrifying Gaze, both male and female racial powers could be Encounter powers instead of Daily powers. Petrifying Gaze may seem strong but remember Elites and Solos get a bonus to their saves, and even if females petrify one creature during an encounter the save really keeps this from unbalancing anything. Aside from being iconic, these powers are one of the few real abilities that make this a unique race. I just think Players would feel cheated if their Medusa could only use its Gaze once a day, when it seems like thier most staple power from all the stories. I can see where it might be uncertain, so I know I'm going to playtest a few both ways to see how it goes. -- Sepsis 14:27, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

If I were to take your suggestion, that would allow a Female Medusa the ability to use Petrifying Gaze, a blast 3 power, and potentially kill 9 enemies in one attack. With the penalties at -2 and -5, even Orcus would have a 50/50 chance of surviving a Failed Second Save. If I were a Medusa player, I would wonder why I even need a class if I have such a powerful racial power. It emphasizes what you are instead of who you are (Race>Class). I understand your concern about player's having fun with a Medusa but in game terms a power that can kill almost any 9 monsters at once should be daily. I'd like some other opinions on this subject. Quite a tricky bugger. --Twisted9 16:22, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

Yes I agree this is a touchy thing to work with. Even if Petrifying Gaze remains a Daily power, I'm not sure Venomous Gaze should be. Either way I posted a link to this race on the WotC forums to see if we could get any additional input from them. Here is a link to the thread: [|Medusa PC Race Thread] -- Sepsis 00:41, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

I think I've found the best solution. The gazes are now both encounter powers that increase in power by levels. This stops low level PCs from Petrifying or Dazing and Weakening strong enemies. This may also reflect a Medusa's gaze growing as they do. Seems like a more natural development this way. --Twisted9 17:15, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

Yeah, I agree that scaling the powers probably works best. -- Sepsis 21:07, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

I like the idea of the powers being Encounter, but as I was rereading your change I was wondering if you saw my thoughts on the Thread; using the powers the way they were originally written I was thinking that if Petrifying Gaze only targeted 1 creature within the blast, and the "Third Failed Save" effect was removed it could work as an Encounter power. Also I was thinking that if Venomous Gaze had it's effects changed to "...and the target is dazed (save ends). First Failed Save: The target is dazed and weakened (save ends both).", it would work as an Encounter power. I'm just thinking both powers work better as blasts (Ranged attacks provokes OAs so you are kinda crimping Melee classes of this race), and Petrifying Gaze seems too weak now.-- Sepsis 23:55, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

FYI, I understand that this race is a near clone of what's in MM, however, I just wanted to point at that pretty much every PC racial power is either a Minor Action or instantaneous effect. (The one exception I can think of is the Minotaur's Charge). To waste your entire turn on a racial power-even an encounter power-it should be good enough for players to want to use it. My opinion? I'd change both to an instantaneous damaging effect with a slight hindering effect. I.e.- Petrifying Gaze does 1d6 + Mod to one target and immobilizes them, save ends/Venomous Gaze does ongoing 5 poison (save ends) and dazes them for one round. -- Shysterio 6:06, 5 August 2009 (MDT)

I think you can get away with changing both powers to Minor Actions. It would fit for both balance and flavour. Marasmusine 15:34, 28 December 2011 (MST)

Actually, I've just noticed that these encounters are imparting ongoing effects, so it falls outside 4e design guidelines. As is, these should be daily powers, but I'm sure there must be a way of making balanced encounter versions of these. Marasmusine 05:09, 10 January 2012 (MST)

Make both powers Twice Daily, Three times at level 21, but once an encounter.

Daily three times a day isn't much different from an Encounter (typically you get 3-4 encounters per extended rest). Instead, I've offloaded the daily effects to racial utility powers. I've also changed their action types to Minor so they remain competitive with class powers. 01:03, 10 June 2013 (MDT)

Suggestion:for a male feat in lieu of snaky hair; Toxic Gaze-causes vexing gaze to deal psychic and poison damage, instead of just psychic damage, I'd do it myself, but I've no idea how and am not sure if it's a good idea...thoughts?

For the purpose of balance

Though the Immunity to petrification fits very well with the MM and lore for the sake of balance it's too powerful. Immunity to a specific condition and the ability to cure it in others for a measly 1 healing surge is absolutely gigantic, and will ultimately lead a DM to be forced away from the petrification effect in monsters.

Since it is a single condition you could give it a +5 on saving throws against it, which makes you more or less immune to it. For the sake of the curing petrification I'm not sure how to change it but I know it can't remain the same.

Additionally the -5 attack effect on the hardening gaze should be under the hit as you should have to hit something to have an effect like that. also if the female medusa is a defender and has a target marked she effectively forces it to target something else for even a remote chance to hit and in most cases this also puts the target under any other effects the mark may impose like giving the medusa an attack or even instant damage on the target. It just has the potential to bend things too far, even if only for a single round. reducing it to a -3 still takes the 50% to a 35% which is still huge but makes it at least acceptable.--Aitharious (talk) 08:19, 11 August 2016 (MDT)