Talk:Mechromancer, Variant (5e Class)

So this is my first go at making any fully fleshed out content for this or any wiki so it would be appreciated if any mistakes I made could be pointed out.

Anyway, this class is completely theory-crafted with little to no playtesting beyond mental number crunching. It would not surprise me if it is unbalanced or more likely just straight up overpowered.

However, it was my thought that the key balancing feature of this class is the pure monetary requirements to make it strong. The thought is that the "fully optimized" build for this class which makes it truly overpowered is one in which the player has obtained the maximum number of energy storage gems (specifically 20) of the highest quality. In other words, the player would need on the order of magnitude of 50000 to 100000 gp worth of materials to truly be a problem and that is ignoring the material costs for the grafts beyond simply storage gems. As such, much of the power behind this class is dependent upon how many materials the DM gives you.

That in mind, how does this class look, balance and clarity wise?

Nosedrool (talk) 10:50, 21 June 2017 (MDT)

For the "Artificial Brain" DC, how is it possible to get a roll of 40+ to pass to the check? Heck how is it possible to get a roll of 30+ for some of the Grafts? If a DM doesn't allow scores to go past the 20 mark and thus leaving the Modifier at +5 and doesn't allow the capability of even temporarily increasing the score and Modifier, some abilities would flat out remain locked out. I understand the idea of trying to prevent Disc 1 Nukes/Game Breakers from an early state, but making it too high defeats the purpose of making it an option because they can't feasibly reach that DC.

Just a slight concern I have while looking over the page. Nightmares are dreams too... (talk) 19:46, 25 June 2017 (MDT)

Ah! it seems I had cut out a part there. Just like with the spell research, you are supposed to reduce the DC of the graft construction by half your mechromancer level rounded down. For example: at level 20, with 20 intelligence, you have firstly +5 to the crafting roll due to intelligence, -10 to the DC due to level, and after attempting to do something three times, you are now proficient in the process to craft it (I hope the way I worded it wasn't ambiguous in the article).

Thus for the DC 40 brain crafting, it is downgraded to a DC 30 due to mechromancer level and after having tried it several times (for something as complex as the brain, research is obviously necessary), the bonus to your roll is +11 and so you'd need a 19 or 20 to successfully craft the brain. Which is still very difficult but possible. perhaps it would be better to reduce the crafting DC further due some other stat or process, perhaps Wisdom?

Nosedrool (talk) 20:54, 25 June 2017 (MDT)

Just went back and added the crafting DC clause to mechanical grafting and added the ability to add wisdom to crafting rolls in improvised construction. Also added the discharge spell to misc. spells and adjusted destabilize. Finally, removed verbal components from spells for flavor reasons.

I have 2 questions: If you make a modular graft, do the other versions also take from the maximum power load of your heart or only the current version? And, how many slots has the Focus, 1 or more? - still no account, 18:45, 28 June 2017 (CEST)

Presumably your asking if by making a graft modular, do the other grafts you have in your inventory that are also modular but not equipped still draw power? No, grafts that you have made but havent equipped because they are modular do not draw power. Otherwise if your referring to how upgrading a graft works, pretty much what you do is use more stuff and the same (or more) tools beyond crafting the original graft which adds additional effects to the grafts.

The Mechanist's focus has 6 slots but you only have access to 1 at 3rd level when you unlock the ability to do so and the remaining 5 are unlocked at each ability score increase. When you unlock a graft slot is noted in the table. You unlock slots at 1st level, at 3rd level with your mechanist's focus, and at every ability score increase.

Nosedrool (talk) 14:49, 28 June 2017 (MDT)

The question was aimed at the others in the inventory, because I didnt think of taking them of. Instead I imagined them transforming. Thanks for clarification The focus slots arent directly mentioned, are they? There is only a vague expression saying the slots are based on your level while not stating any numbers. - no account 02:47, 29 June 2017 (CEST)

I suppose you are right, I don't really explicitly say these things. I'll add that line in. Nosedrool (talk) 19:51, 28 June 2017 (MDT)

While it is nice you added the number of slots, there is still no indicator on which levels the additional slots unlock directly at the ability. Just say that one has to look at the Mechromancer Table to see at which levels slots open up or simply add the levels when they unlock there. Also, what function has the face-graft? Additionaly, at 'Graft Casting', you said spells dont scale as they would with higher levels. Do you mean spell slot levels, or that cantrips dont scale with your mechomancer level? And is casting included in 'Graft Actions', as in: you can cast spells as long as they are coded into a graft? - no account 14:16, 29 June 2017 (CEST)

OK. Firstly, added in the "refer to table for when these things unlock" clauses. Secondly, when I say that the spells do not scale, what I mean is that for a given spell, if you were to go to say the 5e SRD for fireball, it has a paragraph which starts "At Higher Levels." Basically, you ignore that whole paragraph because for balance reasons, I don't wan the player to encode higher level versions of the spell. For cantrips, they don't have this paragraph but for similar balance reasons, you ignore the part explaining how damage increases when you reach certain levels. Honestly it is more important for cantrips than for spells as the spells would actually become less efficient while the cantrips would get ridiculous very fast. tl;dr you cant use higher spell slots than the base ones for a given spell and cantrips don't scale according to mechromancer level as they would for any other class that uses them.

Finally, with graft casting, i suppose i should clarify it in the article. With other classes, you have a spell focus which you cast spells through in the normal method as a action. This is supposed to be how the mechanist's focus works; you can use an action to cast a single spell (but are able to copy it with multicasting). There is of course the forearm graft which lets you encode spells as well. This basically for spells not cast using the focus, you would use graft actions to perform. With graft actions, the main question I'd have back to you is if the way I have it worded, does it make sense that for example, shoulder mounted weapons could fire independently and that you could cast something using the mechanist's focus in one hand but not use a weapon on the forearm or hand? Nosedrool (talk) 11:21, 29 June 2017 (MDT)

I will argue on an example. Lets say you have a shoulder ballista on your left shoulder, your focus in your left han, a spell codex on both forearms and you are level 5, so your proficiency is +3.

From how you worded it, I would say that you can cast with the focus [1 Action] and use 'Graft Actions' [1 Bonus Action] to attack with the shoulder ballista [1st Graft Action], and the spell codex in your right forearm [2nd Graft Action]. The left forearm would be unusable because the focus is held there. Since I asume you can use each graft only once per turn with 'Graft Actions', the one graft action would be lost. Otherwise, as 3rd Graft Action, you could either attack a second time with your ballista, or cast with the right forearm again. (If you intended it as "use each graft only once per turn with 'Graft Actions'", you should probably add that to avoid confusion.) - no account 19:54, 29 June 2017 (CEST)

Precisely the intent. added that in for clarification. Nosedrool (talk) 14:45, 29 June 2017 (MDT)

Yo, just noticed that someone added using Strength OR Dexterity instead of just Dexterity for Mechanized Flesh. Any particular reason?

Hi, me again (guy with no account from above.) Just some quick suggestions/questions I came up with after looking at this class again. Firstly, Multicasting needs a hard nerf. As it is worded right now, you can drop 40d6 fire or frost damage, with 1 action, and as AOE. That is at max 240 damage. Too much. My suggestion would be that AOE-Spells multicast are treated as having the range extended. That way, even when you put 4 overlapping fireballs on someone, they only get 8d6 fire damage, not 40d6.
Now on to the questions: Is doing an unarmed attack with a grafted body part not designed for combat (example: a kick with a Strider Leg) covered by graft actions? Does the Plasma cannon do 1d6 lightning or force, or 1d6 of each? Has it a range (it should)? What range has the Pulser Gauntlet (I am guessing it is 5 feet)? And lastly the +4 Int that the mechanical brain provides, does that break the 20 max, or is it still capped at 20 (I would be in favor for the breakning of the cap)?
If I get no response within 7 days, I will add/answer the questions myself, since this is a rather old page, the author may or may not still be active.

Celepito (talk) 05:22, 3 June 2018 (MDT)

Yo, I haven't really touched this class for a good year or so because there hasn't been much I had to do with it. On the topic of multicasting, the main limiting factor of this class was intended to be the availability of high value gems. I generally have more experience with limited value campaigns so this seemed like a valid balancing factor. I probably agree that it needs to be nerfed but all me to do a best case for cantrip or for fireball.

Lets assume that you have 20th level mechromancer who is tricked out with an entropy core and heart, nanite blood, conduit chassis, 6 upgraded gem storages on the mechanist focus, two mechanical arms and the maximum 5 spell codexes; one of each arm and one of the mechanist focus as well as 24 intelligence. The ones on the mechanical arms can only cast cantrips, and the ones on the forearms can cast up to 2nd level while the mechanist focus one can cast up to 3rd level. This means you have 26 slots for energy gems (lets assume theyre all 1000-5000gp each for the max energy), you generate 80 energy per minute of combat, and your energy costed actions cost 3 less. Note: multicasting uses graft actions and copied spells count as the same action and you do not get a bonus action. This means you can cast up to 5 chains of spells which (for cantrips) do not scale with caster level and cannot be cast with higher level spell slots (I will remove the 4th level thing in graft casting). Obviously you can also overload your gems and get double the energy but that is expensive.

Thus: 2600 energy, 5 chains, and with INT of +7, you can cast up to 4 additional spells from each chain

Cantrip (Firebolt)

5x firebolt from focus: (1*5+5*4) -3 = 18 energy

5x firebolt from forearm x2: ((1*5+3*4+5*4) -3)x2 = 68 energy

5x firebolt from mechanical arm x2: ((1*5+5*4+5*4) -3)x2 = 78 energy

Each firebolt does 6 (1d10) fire damage. Thus 25d10 for 168 energy

Fireball

5x fireball from focus: (20*5+35*4) -3 = 237 energy

5x fireball from forearm x2: ((20*5+3*4+35*4) -3)x2 = 498 energy

5x fireball from mechanical arm x2: ((20*5+5*4+35*4) -3)x2 = 514 energy

Each fireball does a ton of damage therefore this is a lot of fire damage for 1249 energy

I have two ways I have thought of to nerf this:

1) Multicasting cost is additive for each additional spell in a chain (e.g. second cantrip is +5 third is +10 and so on)

Cantrip (Firebolt)

5x firebolt from focus: (1*5+(5+10+15+20)) -3 = 52 energy

5x firebolt from forearm x2: ((1*5+3*4+(5+10+15+20)) -3)x2 = 128 energy

5x firebolt from mechanical arm x2: ((1*5+5*4+(5+10+15+20)) -3)x2 = 144 energy

Each firebolt does 6 (1d10) fire damage. Thus 25d10 for 324 energy

Fireball

5x fireball from focus: (20*5+(35+70+105+140)) -3 = 447 energy

5x fireball from forearm x2: ((20*5+3*4+(35+70+105+140)) -3)x2 = 918 energy

5x fireball from mechanical arm x2: ((20*5+5*4+(35+70+105+140)) -3)x2 = 934 energy

Each fireball does a ton of damage therefore this is a lot of fire damage for 2299 energy

2) Multicasting instead amplifies the cost of each spell in a chain by the number of spells in the chain (plus the forearm and mechanical arm cost)

Cantrip (Firebolt)

5x firebolt from focus: (1*5)x5 -3= 22 energy

5x firebolt from forearm x2: 1*5+((1+3)*5)x4 -3= 164 energy

5x firebolt from mechanical arm x2: ((1*5+5*4+(5+10+15+20)) -3)x2 = 244 energy

Each firebolt does 6 (1d10) fire damage. Thus 25d10 for 430 energy

Fireball

5x fireball from focus: (20*5)x5 -3= 497 energy

5x fireball from forearm x2: (20*5+((20+3)*5)x4 -3)x2= 1114 energy

5x fireball from mechanical arm x2: (20*5+((20+5)*5)x4 -3)x2= 1194 energy

Each fireball does 8d6 fire damage therefore this is a lot of fire damage for 2805 energy

Generally I would think 2 is more allowing of the mass use of cantrips while somewhat eliminating obscene use of fireballs but what do you think? Other nerf solutions are also welcome. Nosedrool (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2018 (MDT)

First of all, you cant use the Forearms for fireballs, right? ( Also, a bit of formating in your last answer.)

But I dont think that the Energy cost is the problem. The issue is the amount of damage in a certain timeframe. Simply compare it to other classes.

A 20th level fighter specialised for crossbow combat ( is also ranged) can attack 4 times. With a +3 magic weapon we are looking at 4*(1d10+8) damage. Even the firebolts from the focus and 1 forearm can do more damage (10d10).

Also, look at the Sorcerers Twinned Spell, which you can only use on single target spells.

It is just to much, since you can do so much burst, that the cost is a non-issue, since there wont be any enemies left to take advantage of your weakness, and you can simply rest until you are ready again. As I said above, even with just the focus being able to cast fireball, 40d6 damage in an AOE in one round is simply too strong, since that is just the focus. A Sorcerour's Meteor Swarm might do the same amount of damage, but that will be the only spell cast form them. You still have at lest the other arm, which will most likely have a Spellcodes too, and each shoulder.

Lets say, we go with what grafts you outlined above, with the ruleing as it is right now:

40d6 from the Focus' fireball for 20+35+35+35+35=160 Energy (with a save of DC 23)

5d10 other arm's spellcodex with firebolt for 1+8+8+8+8=33 Energy (each with a +17 to hit)

10d10 for each shoulders spellcodex with firebolt for 2*(1+10+10+10+10)=82 Energy

Overall 40d6 + 15d10 for a max of 390 damage for 275 Energy. You could do this for ~9 rounds. Nothing which isnt immune is going to survive that.

A Wizard/Sorcerer has a single 9th slot. They can do less the 40d6 once. Without the 15d10 on top. You see the problem?

My inital suggestion to stop overlapping AOEs to deal damage to the same target would get rid of the fireball-problem, but you would still be able to deal at max more than 150 damage on a single enemy for too many rounds. The only real solution without changing the whole ability would be to go with maybe Int-Score/10 (Score, not mod) rounded down in extra casts. It would be quite a big nerf, but then again, this is a extremly strong ability.

That nerf would result in 24d6 + 9d10. But that is still at max 234 damage each round, which is still too much. Hell, even a double cast would resut in max 156 damage per round. No other class can come even close to that sustained damage. A heavy crossbow +3 on a Lv.20 fighter (iirc the best sustanied damage dealer) gives a max of 72 damage each round, which we would be in line with, if we are not multi casting.

...I actually think that Multi casting either has to go, or we take the sorcerer's Twinned Spell, otherwise it is too unbalanced, since the actual Energy cost is no issue, because when everything is dead, your Energy will simply regenerate in time. If we take the Twinned spell, its 8d10 per round, but without the reliablity in the damage amount that the fighter has. But then, it would also be a +17 to hit, nearly guaranteed to hit.

It should probaly go alltoghether. Maybe put something there that improved Improvised Construction?

I also think that this class in its whole, even without multicasting might be too strong, due to all the boni that stack up. I mean, in Perception alone you can get a +18 without Wisdom-modifier, because you can add 3 times you proficiency. I will think about how to solve that problem once we dealt with the multicasing issue.

Also, any answers to the rest of my questions? And a additionale question about Artisan Hands, the "you can add your proficiency bonus to actions requiring the use of these hands." doesnt include attacks, right? Maybe some clarification on what is actually affected would be good.

--Celepito (talk) 12:18, 3 June 2018 (MDT)

Graft actions would include performing a kick with an appropriately grafted leg (slicer leg), any instance that says damage type A and type B means both are done (e.g. 1d6 fire and lightning damage is 2d6 damage). Artisan hands was intended to be out of combat only. The plasma cannon... idk what range I intended but I assume hand crossbow ranges (30/120). The pulser gauntlet should probably be melee since it is hand mounted.

Honestly, I spent so long trying to figure out what I could put in each level and what each graft could do that I didn't really look at how this class worked as a whole. Honestly, the more I think about the class, the more it becomes apparent that in order to make the class have lots of character options, I just overloaded it with utility beyond any reason. If there's anything that you think can fix it up, feel free to make those changes. Otherwise, axe it.

Nosedrool (talk) 17:53, 3 June 2018 (MDT)

I will do my best. Probably lots of changes from flat boni to advantage, since that can be counteracted with disadvantages. Also, clarifications. I will makes the changes per ability/graft, so they are quick to reverse. Just keep an eye on the class, if you dont agree with one of them, revert and we'll talk. And I will most likely ask some more things, so be ready. (On that note, english is not my first language, if you dont understand something, ask, I wont be mad.)

Also, I am currently at University towards the end of a semester, so it might take a while.

Celepito (talk) 06:50, 4 June 2018 (MDT)

Sure, I'll keep an eye out. Also feel free to add any graft ideas you want. I tried to come up with 2 for each slot but eventually it became a matter of adding stats.

Nosedrool (talk) 09:19, 4 June 2018 (MDT)

Made the first few minor changes. Wont change any more grafts, but will axe Multicasting and Expanded Perception. Also, 2 questions:

In Mechanical Grafting you said that you are considered a construct. What would that entail exactly?

What is your opinion on giving the face graft some actual functions?

Celepito (talk) 08:59, 5 June 2018 (MDT)

The fact that you are a construct was intended to be more flavor-wise but as I look into mechanical implications, this primarily means that most healing spells don't work but this also applies to others. This includes the spells: Spare the Dying, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Prayer of Healing, Power Word: Heal, Mass Heal, Phantasmal Force, Blight, Mass Cure Wounds, Mass Healing Word, Heal, Cause Fear, Healing Spirit, Abi-Dazim's Horrid Wilting, Antilife Shell, and more potentially

Essentially healing spells, some necromancy and some cc don't work. If this isn't reasonable, mechanically, perhaps change to something like the warforged Living Construct trait?

One solution to keep some of the "you are becoming more machine than human" theme of the class could be done by instead of being a construct that you have to make a Constitution save with a DC equal to the number of grafts you have whenever you would be healed using magic if you fail the save the spell has no effect on you.

Actual facial graft functions can be cool, I never came up with any. Maybe make grafts that look like different races? For example, a dragonborn face graft might make you look like a dragonborn from a distance or even have a super toned down breath weapon and so on.

Nosedrool (talk) 12:20, 5 June 2018 (MDT)

I like the idea with the Con Save for healing spells, brings down the power level of the class some more.

For the Face Grafts, I was thinking more along the lines of it being a sci-fi "helmet" looking like this [1], which can retract into your skull to reveal your face. Going from that point I wanted to create 2 Grafts as a kind of Combat UI Overlay on the "helmet" inside. One which gives you "pack tactics", so advantage on meele attacks when an ally is engaged with the target. The other one would be "Targeting UI" or something, which would negate the long range disadvantage on ranged weapons.

What do you think of the changes so far (if you didnt know, if you look at the page history, you can look at the changes made side by side)? I would like to think that I reduced the power a bit. I will most likely change the +1 HP/level of Armored Plating to -1 from non-magical slash, pierce and bludgeoning, because at the moment you get so much HP. (My own build would have 263 HP @20 without rolling for HP, 103 Base + 100 from 20 Con + 60 for Armored Plating). Might even take down the size of the Hit Dice to d6, in line with the Sorcerer, since you will most likly still get 20 Con on this class. If you combine that with the Con Save for healing spells, that would, make you more reliant on Imrovised Construction for heals. Not sure though. Your input on that?

Celepito (talk) 13:21, 5 June 2018 (MDT)

I like those options a lot actually. I actually looked at that very picture when designing this class so I definitely like what it looks like. I agree with your changes. They diversify stat gains into less "get a bunch of health" sort of options. I would agree to the d6 hit die being a good idea helps to make the caster side of this class balance out.

Nosedrool (talk) 15:13, 5 June 2018 (MDT)

OK, just got done with an exam, got some days free. My current plan is to as following:

Replace Multicasting with Modified Casting (without the +2 DC/to hit).

Then replace Expanded Perception with what I would call Superior Intellect. This would allow you to roll with your Int-modifier against mind affecting conditions like charmed or frightened, and against illusions, instead of with Wis- or Cha-Modifier. You would not add Proficiency, since they are still Widom or Charisma saves, you just use your Int-modifier instead of your Wis-/Cha-modifier. I would also stick the +2 DC/to hit here.

I also want to change Overload. In its current form, it is a last effort kind of thing, which I never like, and I would never use it. Also, other than Discharge and Self-Destructive Chest Beam, there is no way to really use that amount of energy. I got two ideas here:

• either add a Int Save ("How well did you install and maintain everything?") with a DC of 1 + number of storage gems installed. Then you substract the result from the DC and, for every number bigger than 0, a gem is destroyed, starting from the less valuable ones since they cant take the strain as well as the higher quality ones.

• change it completly, call it "(Short) Circuit", you spend 100 Energy and make a meele spell attack against a target in meele range. On a miss, nothing happens and you spend the energy for nothing. On a hit, you create a circuit between you and the target, and start a chain reaction with the spend Energy. For every gem you have installed, this does a d2 lightning damage (20 gems installed = 20d2). Then, for every point of damage the target took, you regain 10 Energy. That would make it a way to regain energy, not make it too strong, but still usefull. And dangerous, since you have to get in meele range.

That leaves us with a free slot at Lv15. What do you think about mechanical companions? I would say that you could create 2 mechanical familiars using a gem each and some more materials, which use the stats from a CR0 beast that are small or tiny, exept the Intelligence score, which is equal to yours -4. They generate 5 Energy per hour and the gem can store an amount relative to the value. They can cast Mark and Hologramm. You can communicate telephatically (wireless connection) with them and in combat they act directly after your turn. Should the get destroyed, you can use additional materials to repair them. They are constructs.

• Mark: 1 bonus action, concentration up to 1 hour, 90 ft, 5 Energy. You mark the target, any attack the target suffers deals +1d2 damage and has a +1 to hit. The caster has to stay within range for this effect to continue and multiple marks on the same target dont stack.

• Hologramm: 1 action, concentration up to 1 hour, 60 ft., 25 Energy. You create an image that is no larger than a 15-foot cube. The image appears at a spot within range and lasts for the duration. The image is purely visual. It is obvious that it is an illusion. You can use your action to cause the image to move to any spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image.

Those would allow use in combat, and use in recon, for example send an owl in to scout the enemy hideout and use Hologramm to give a visual image to the rest of the party. That would also fit in with the fact that at Lv14, you can create energy generating grafts. Not sure though, if you are okay with companions in or not. Your call.

So, what do you think about all that?

Celepito (talk) 06:02, 8 June 2018 (MDT)

Anthing? Finished my last exam for this month, so I got some time on my hands, but I would still like your input for some of the larger changes.

Celepito (talk) 12:05, 13 June 2018 (MDT)

Weird... I had put some suggestions for mechanical companions and shifting some features around but for some reason it is missing...

tl;dr of what I had: Companions sound cool. My suggestion is make them into sort of like sidegrades of energy gems and move them to 6th level with full conversion going to 7th and improvised construction going to 13th level.

Mechanical Companion You can use an appropriate amount of materials to turn an energy storage gem that is using a slot into a mechanical companion. The mechanical companion can be in the form of a small or smaller beast, construct, dragon or fey that you have seen. The companion has the stats and abilities or the creature it is based upon except that it appears as a mechanical facsimile of the original and it has your intelligence score. The maximum CR for a companion is 1/4.

The companion requires a heart load of 10, has an energy storage of half that of the original storage gem. The mechanical companion takes its actions immediately following the mechromancer's and uses graft actions it gets no bonus action and uses the mechromancer's reaction if one is taken. It can only act so long as it is within 120 feet of the mechromancer and there is a solid connection to it. The connection is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt. The companion goes limp and dormant if it loses connection and must be touched by the mechromancer to reactivate. The mechromancer may dismiss any number of their companions as an action whereafter they fold away and return to their storage slots. The mechanical companion is able to use discharge and destabilize from the mechromancer spell list as well as mark and hologram. For each active companion above half your proficiency score rounded up active at a time, each companion gets -1 intelligence and -1 to any d20 roll it makes.

The companion is effectively an extension of the mechromancer and thus is able to be affected by spells and effects which would affect the mechromancer. Should the companion fail an intelligence or charisma saving throw, it must make and additional intelligence saving throw with the same DC as the first save. On a failure the connection to the mechromancer is compromised allowing the mechromancer to also be affected by the spell or effect. The mechromancer must also make the original saving throw and upon a failure must also make an additional intelligence saving throw. On a failure, all remaining active mechanical companions of the mechromancer's must make the original saving throw. The mechromancer and each of its companions must only make the original saving throw once.

What do you think? Also for Hologram, perhaps change to wording from "It is obvious that it is an illusion" to "Any close inspection of the hologram reveals it to be an illusion" as perhaps you might want to use it to confuse less intelligent foes like goblins.

Nosedrool (talk) 15:08, 13 June 2018 (MDT)

Maybe you didn't save the changes or something.

My original idea was to have 2 flying drones, which could, when working together, create a translucent-blue 3D-Hologram of whatever they were looking at, like 2 cameras can create a 3D like effect. So the main focus would be as a scouting tool, with a minor helpful/buffing use in combat, an all around simple idea.

While your idea sounds nice, I dont think it should go in this class because of 3 things. First, as a Mechromancer, you are already screwing with the action economy through your graft actions and extra reactions. Adding all that extra stuff in, I think it would be too much. Just think of the poor DM who has to keep track of all that as well. Hell, I think my companion idea should be restricted to an action and a reaction per turn, with mark needing an action to cast and an action per turn to maintain, so you can simply say "My companions maintain their Marks." and be done with it. Don't forget I am also trying to reduce the overall power of the class a bit. (Your idea for Hologram and for the connection sound good though). Second, having something that generates energy fits with the Lv14 Ability, and Imporised constructions at Lv13 seems too late, since it is your most reliable way to heal other than rests. Third, your companion idea adds a lot of complexity to an already really complex class. Also, even a CR1 is at higher levels pretty much useless, so spending so much on something more or less trivial isnt a good idea I think.

Anything about the rest of the stuff I mentioned?

Celepito (talk) 16:36, 13 June 2018 (MDT)

Ok I see what you mean with the companions and other class mechanics getting out of hand. I figured that the player would want access to the utility that something like a familiar is at an earlier level and that would more or less require the shifts I suggested. I will change the writing above with some simplifications and general shifts in power for the purposes of theory. The main change would be that they use your graft actions in combat (to help fix some of that, also they are technically grafts so...) and the CR limit is lowered and independent of gem quality (can also agree to just lowering it to 0 for the sake of balance, would necessitate removing fey and dragon from the type list). Also removed the energy generation. I would also note that mark should just say outright that it uses an action to maintain and it should be an action.

For improvised construction, another placement is to put it on 9th level and just shift everything else up (Multitasking 9-->10, Improved salvage 10-->11 and Modular grafting 11-->13)

I liked the ideas of short circuit in order to replace overload and superior intellect to replace expanded perception.

Nosedrool (talk) 10:25, 14 June 2018 (MDT)

Thanks for the feedback. 9th level Improvised Construction sounds good. I like the changes you made, but some things can be simplified. Here is the changed version (changes like this):

Mechanical Companion

You can use an appropriate amount of materials to turn an energy storage gem that is using a slot into a mechanical companion. The mechanical companion can be in the form of a small or smaller beast, construct, dragon or fey that you have seen or researched. During a long rest, you can, instead of researching either a graft or spell, reseach a form. At the end of the long rest you know that form well enough to build a companion with it. The companion has the stats and abilities or the creature it is based upon except that it appears as a mechanical facsimile of the original and it has your intelligence score. The maximum CR for a companion is 1/4.

The companion requires a heart load of 10, and has an energy storage of half that of the original storage gem. In combat, the mechanical companion counts as a graft and uses graft actions. It can use the mechromancer's reaction if one is taken. You can repair all companions fully during a short rest. A companion can only act so long as it is within 120 feet of the mechromancer and there is a solid connection to it. The connection is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt. The companion goes limp and dormant if it loses connection and must be touched by the mechromancer to reactivate. The mechromancer may dismiss any number of their companions as a free action whereafter they fold away and return to their storage slots as long as the mechromancer is within their movement range. The mechanical companion is able to use Discharge and Arcane Bolt from the mechromancer spell list as well as mark and hologram. You can have up to half your proficiency score rounded up companions active at a time. (Alternative: For each active companion above half your proficiency score rounded up active at a time, each entity within the network, the mechromancer included, gets -1 intelligence and -1 to any d20 roll it makes.)

• Mark: 1 action, concentration up to 1 hour, 90 ft, 5 Energy. You mark the target, any attack the target suffers deals +1d2 damage and has a +1 to hit. The caster has to stay within range for this effect to continue and multiple marks on the same target dont stack. You have to spend an action each turn to maintain the mark.

• Hologramm: 1 action, concentration up to 1 hour, 60 ft., 15 Energy. You create an image that is no larger than a 15-foot cube. The image appears at a spot within range and lasts for the duration. The image is purely visual. Any close inspection of the hologram reveals it to be an illusion. You can use your action to cause the image to move to any spot within range. As the image changes location, you can alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image.

The companion is effectively an extension of the mechromancer and thus is able to be affected by spells and effects which would affect the mechromancer. Should a companion fail an intelligence or charisma saving throw the connection to mechromancer is compromised allowing the mechromancer to also be affected by the spell or effect. The mechromancer must also make the original saving throw and upon a failure all remaining active mechanical companions of the mechromancer are effected as well.

This should simplify everthing a bit, while keeping the same stuff in. I took out Destabilize in favour of Arcane Bolt since the gem is still the source of life for the companion and removing that seems weird. Also, I am personally more for the hard limit on teh number of companions to keep it simpler. And, for the last bit, the mechromancer failing is the "controll centre" being compromised.

Anyway, your thoughts on that version?

Celepito (talk) 12:17, 14 June 2018 (MDT)

That looks good. Only question is if the alternative network penalty which includes the mechromancer is a good fit flavor and mechanics-wise. From a flavor standpoint, the whole point of the penalty is that it becomes difficult to control the companions if there are too many of them then mechanics being that as you have more of them, their control quality falls. If the mechromancer also receives this penalty, this might suggest that the mechromancer's mental controls for the companions are similar to how they move themselves. I think either way is valid, so whichever you think is balanced or needed for balance is valid.

I may have forgotten to put it back in, but the intent for destabilize was that the companion could only cast it centered upon itself (i.e. self destruct).

On the topic of limiting the number of companions, my suggestion would be limit it to your proficiency score if there is a limit as the hope of having an excess is a matter of player choice in optimization (do you want several companions with somewhat weakened stats, only an amount that get no penalty, none because you want more energy storage, etc.)

I had the dismiss function as an action for the sake of how much time it should take and to make it in line with the Find Familiar spell. In which case, should we also reduce the connection range to 100feet as well?

I like your rewording of the network collapse mechanic, fewer rolls to be made and more danger of a collapse happening.

Nosedrool (talk)

I was simply thinking that the network would get overloaded with too many things going on, thus it slows everthing down to not collapse.

Destabilize with that restriction sound okay to me, but I will also leave Arcane Bolt in, since it simply adds a ranged option for most of the companions, which even has a energy cost.

I was limiting the number mainly to keep things simpler, but if we treat them as grafts that wont be an issue, so hard limit is proficiency, softcap is half prof. rounded up. Altough there is still the fact that one has to keep track of the positions, which could be difficult with up to 6 companions.

I made the dismiss a free action, since I was thinking that you simply issue the command and the companion comes to you and slots in (the range is just for combat, but I should probably reword that to add in "if the companion cant reach you this turn, it will spend this and all following turns moving towards the mechromancer, until it is given a new command, destroyed or sloted in."), while for the familiar you would banish them, which in my mind is creating a small portal, requiring more than a free action. I think 120ft connection range is fine.

I am going to implement some of the definitive changes we came up with now.

Celepito (talk) 08:04, 15 June 2018 (MDT)

Got some more stuff:

• How does one generate energy pre-level 14? (Maybe let the biological heart generate 5 or even 10 Energy per hour?)

• We need to rescale the energy cost for spells. I have done some quick maths, a Lv20 Wizard, when only casting Fireballs can do 154d6 damage when using all spell slots of 3rd tier and higher. A full Mechromancer @20 can do 1000d6. I think you see the problem, too much staying power. I would say we go for 5/20/50/100 for the Energy costs. That may seem extreme when compared to before, but I think it is needed. With that scale, you can still do 200d6, but that is much easier to balance than 1000d6.

• Last call on the companion stuff, everything good to go or would you change some more stuff?

• What do you think about adding in requirements for all the grafts? I mean that as "Requirement: Full-Conversion Grafting" for example. And maybe for the cores, blood and the hearts, each of the previous ones researched?

Celepito (talk) 05:48, 19 June 2018 (MDT)

I didn't actually think of how energy is generated pre-14. The way I thought I had made it was that you would generate some energy during long rests but apparently that isn't anywhere. Probably need to add something to energy storage. Either make it so that when a storage gem is created, it comes with free power and thus you have to salvage and rebuild them to get more power or make it so that you get something like your mechromancer level energy per hour during a short or long rest that you can put into any combination of gems.

The current iteration of spell costs is to fall in line with the fact that you can only make gems store up to 25 energy at 5th level. Perhaps move the costs to 5/15/30/50 as you only have access to two storage slots at 5th level (both on your focus as torso grafts aren't until 12th level same as heart grafts)

Companion stuff looks to be in a good place to be shipped.

All grafts have primarily level requirements. See the class table. Usually you unlock slots at ability score increases. In most cases, you unlock a slot before you unlock full conversion or modular, or energy generating grafts and so the first options are much simpler. Its supposed to be that you cannot create any grafts with types that you haven't unlocked yet. I certainly agree that perhaps the blood, core, and heart grafts should be a progression as they are all essentially upgrades. Either make it so that you have to upgrade or make it so that the build DC is very high and that it goes down by some amount if you built the previous one.

Nosedrool (talk) 08:22, 19 June 2018 (MDT)

Okay, I am back, had some stuff come up.

I would say you generate level energy per hour passiv. To keep the current balance there, I would take away 20 Energy per hour for all the cores. And additionaly, during a rest, you can spend hit dice to get the amount rolled (obviously without Constitution modifier) as Energy. If you do that during a long rest, you only regain your full amount minus the number of dice rolled. That should do the trick.

For the spellcost, I would still go with 5/20/50/100 and instead either remove the amount per level limit or double the rate you get it. The later is nescessary anyways, because with the current wording, you are unable to overcharge a 1000+ gem, since you can only store 100 Energy max, which is the amount a 1000+ gem can store normaly. I would however argue for the first one, because Energy storage is gated in 3,5 ways. Available gold, gem quality, amount of slots (level) and amount you are able to store (level). Losing one level limit wouldnt break anything.

For the requirements, I was just thinking that you can look at the graft you want and know what level, etc. you need without looking at anything else, but your reasoning is sound, I agree with you it is not needed. And for cores, blood and hearts I was just thinking that you need to have installed the previous version. The crafting process would be, in essence, the upgrade. I dont think there needs to be much restructuring. Simply one line at each version "Requirement: You need to have 'previous version' installed.".

Also, how about adding in Hologram as a Misc. Spell? And adding in upgrades for the eyes, which would add darkvison? (The nightvision ones would add the +60ft flat to everyone, the upgrades +60ft if you didnt have darkvision before, or +30ft if you did.)

Celepito (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2018 (MDT)

Those all sound valid. If you wanna add those in, go ahead. Otherwise I will get to it in a day or two.

Nosedrool (talk) 09:50, 5 July 2018 (MDT)

How would you go about changing the three grafts you start with when you get to higher levels? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 23:25, 21 March 2019 (MDT)

I seem to not have put anything explicitly regarding this but the implied effect is that during a long rest, you may craft a new graft for a slot for which you have unlocked; This graft replaces/destroys any graft already in that slot unless that graft is modular in which case, the modular graft is removed but not destroyed. Would you rather that said information is written explicitly? Nosedrool (talk) 09:13, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

Thanks,That's what I thought it meant but I wasn't certain,I think it would be helpful if it was written to confirm it for others who aren't sure like I was. Ash1234ash11 (talk) 09:22, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

I have added notes to that effect at the end of the Mechanical Grafting and Modular Grafts blocks. Nosedrool (talk) 09:28, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

I have also just made some miscellaneous grammatical edits and errata which should clarify a couple features. Additionally, I have rewritten the description for Self-Destructive Chest Beam so that it might be a lot clearer how it functions. However, if a DM runs a game where 3D positions are important, then god help them if that spell is used. If there are further clarifications needed, I will add them as addressed Nosedrool (talk) 11:14, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

For the three grafts I get at first level, are there any limitations to what graphs I get other than that I have the slots for them also, can I make a graft but not equip it? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 11:27, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

For the Gatling Cannon shoulder graft, how many bullets can it hold total? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 13:22, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

The 3 grafts you get at first level must be of a slot/type you have unlocked and cannot be modular, full-conversion, or energy generating. For clarity, I will note that this means that they must be a partial conversion graft specifically.

For ammo, see quiver foundry. The idea is that you have a chain of ammo that is stored in a quiver or bag. The weapon uses some amount of that ammo. I didn't have a preset idea for how much the "low caliber bullets" cost, weighed, etc. but I would just use the bullets from DMG 268. Nosedrool (talk) 14:56, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

Are you able to create a graft but not equip it? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 16:09, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

With the exception of modular grafts, no. RAW. see mechanical grafting and modular grafts. (grafts are crafted onto the PC) Nosedrool (talk) 16:32, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

Ah I must have missed that, thank you. Ash1234ash11 (talk) 16:46, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

Also for the 3 grafts that you start with, can you choose any difficulty or just like 10 or lower? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 19:37, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

For the Gatling Cannon graft, is it 1d6 per bullet or just 1d6 total? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 19:52, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

The gatling gun is 1d6 total. And having looked at the list of Partial Conversion grafts, of the ones available at 1st level, only the gatling gun and ballista are higher than DC 10, so I would say that it is probably better to make them unavailable for free. I'll make some edits to clarify the gatling gun damage and add the clause to Mechanical Grafting to limit the DC for initial grafts. Nosedrool (talk) 21:28, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

Is Graft Actions as OP as it looks? like that ends up being somethjng like extra attack 6 by 20th level. Also can you use this every turn? I also do not think not being able to add dex or strength to damage is that big of a balance to this feature. Ash1234ash11 (talk) 22:55, 22 March 2019 (MDT)

Short answer: potentially. Longer answer: It uses your bonus action, scales off proficiency, and requires that you give up on defensive/utility grafts to be relevant. Additionally, those attack do not add your ability modifier and 2 of the 6 possible attack are melee only on a caster class. Essentially the comparison is to cantrip and spell scaling on normal casters. However, I have not tested this in practice. In theory, all of the more broken sounding mechanics of this class are have a barrier in the form of access to materials and the squishiness of the class itself. Remember healing spells and other beneficial effects that do not affect constructs do not work on you. This class probably does a tone of damage, but pretty much any damage you take will stick and hurt. Nosedrool (talk) 12:37, 23 March 2019 (MDT)

When a graft requires gears or gems, how many does the graft require? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 02:29, 27 March 2019 (MDT)

Good question. I never put a number on it; assuming that it would fall to DM discretion/DM trusting the player to be reasonable. In terms of scrap metal and gears etc. It falls upon how much in terms of volume the DM determines makes sense for crafting that graft. For gems and other more precious materials such as with the Spell Codex, I figure that you would need to invest gems in terms of gp value sufficient to store the minimum energy to cast that spell. Alternatively, I could add a section in mechanical grafting to explain all of the materials in more precise terms. Nosedrool (talk) 09:39, 27 March 2019 (MDT)

Yep that would be helpful, also when creating grafts over a long rest, how many are you able to make? Ash1234ash11 (talk) 20:37, 28 March 2019 (MDT)

Ok. I will write up the specifics for graft components in the next day or so. You get to attempt to craft one graft and/or research one spell per long rest. This is implied in Multitasking and Graft Casting but I will add it to mechanical grafting. I will also explain what happens when crafting fails (you a percentage of the materials in terms of gp cost). Nosedrool (talk) 07:49, 29 March 2019 (MDT)

Hey, just some questions about spell casting and the class in general. When I first found the class I thought that it was more of a melee class because of the arm blades and armored plating but after reading this discussion page I'm realizing that it's more of a spellcasting class. Part of this confusion I think is that I find it confusing how to cast spells before 5th level and generating energy before 14th level (this was discussed earlier but I don't think that it was written explicitly into the main page - there is a small section which says that you can passively store energy in them, but is this over a long rest? A short rest? A time period?). At 2nd level we get access to energy storage but it seems like its pretty useless especially without explicit ways to generate energy until graft casting is is unlocked at fifth level, which seems odd to me. Is there a way to cast spells without encoding it into a graft or the focus? If that is the case, then what is the point of encoding spells? Is it just to take advantage of graft actions and multicasting? And if anyone has tried a melee build with this class, feel free to let me know how it went, otherwise I might be the first (since you can get up to +6 AC with full armored plating + armored chassis and the tactical ui face graft seems pretty nice). Syranis 16:08, 10 Feb 2021 (UTC)

In terms of casting spells, think of encoding spells as writing them into a spellbook and preparing them. So long as you have a spell encoded onto any graft you have equipped, you have it prepared and so long as you have energy, you can cast them. So in effect, you cannot cast spells prior to unlocking that function. For very early energy generation, I guess I forgot to actually have a way to put energy into a storage gem so for that, I will add an "charge up to 10x mechromancer level energy during a long rest" clause to the energy storage section. Nosedrool (talk) 12:21, 10 March 2021 (MST)

As a correction to the above, you can cast Destabilize at 2nd level and Discharge at 3rd level. I will note that in the relevant sections. Nosedrool (talk) 12:36, 10 March 2021 (MST)

Thanks for the quick reply, looking forwards to trying out the class Syranis 19:40, 10 Feb 2021 (UTC)

I've been looking at Cyberpunk 2077 to find some inspiration for some new grafts and I have a small list of grafts that could be added, but I'm not sure how to balance them. An interesting upgrade for both face grafts could be to have critical hits on 19-20, but that might be a little strong in a melee build. A new graft for the general defensive slots (like armored plating and deflector plating) could be used to add specific damage resistances (choose one of fire, lightning, cold, poison, acid, or psychic when you make it). Maybe it could have an upgrade to let you change the resistance type on a long rest, would probably have to be a highish dc, around 25? I could see it being strong in some campaigns and more useless in others. --Syranis (talk) 10:47, 14 March 2021 (MDT)

Feel free to add any graft ideas to the appropriate section, just following the format of the existing ones. Nosedrool (talk) 11:58, 15 March 2021 (MDT)