Talk:Martial Artist (3.5e Class)

This class seems very unbalanced, as it seems like it wants to be the monk class, but better. For example, it gets more attacks than the monk class, and also gets a better flurry of blows than the monk class[1][2]: there is no penalty mentioned other than the penalty for dual wielding, and the variety of weapons that can be used is greater[[3]]. Not to mention the fact that the class gains more feats than the monk[4][5], and starts out with weapon finesse and Improved Unarmed strike, as well as a large number of weapon proficiencies, and gains more progressively. The class also gains its Intell. bonus to AC[6], not unlike the monk's wisdom to AC bonus[7], but in addition gains what is effectively natural armor much faster than the monk[8][9]. There is also no mention of an armor or load restriction to the class features such as armor bonus and Flurry of blows, yet these are defining characteristics of the same class features when they are present on the monk; furthermore, despite the lack of armor proficiency, there is nothing restricting a player from simply taking a level in another class to gain the proficiency, such as is present on the monk class[10]. The class also starts out with as many bonus feats as the fighter class, and has an equivalent attack bonus to the fighter class, yet better saving throws, and more skill points. In short, the basic statistics of the class are far too high to be balanced. In addition, many of the maneuvers seem to effectively grant feats, and given the number of maneuvers, it is possible to gain more of what are essentially feats than a fighter. Many of them similar in nature to epic feats or spell effects, and they are all extraordinary abilities, surpassing even the monk. They also grant by 9th level what takes the monk until 16th to gain, the adamantine attribute to overcome damage reduction. They also spread the class into places denied to all other classes save the rogue and its variants: Sneak attack. There is no reason that this class should have access to it when it clearly is not a rogue variant. Maneuvers need to either be completely redone, or removed altogether if this class is ever to be balanced Furthermore, the ability to recover all of the expended maneuvers with a single swift action is greatly overpowered. Because of their power, and similarity to spells, (with some notable differences, aka overcoming spell resistance, no Attacks of Opportunity, lack of components, etc.) they need to have a recovery time much longer than a swift action. I would propose that the only way to restore them would be the 5 minutes of exercise mentioned on the class page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.177.144.1 (talk • contribs) 02:51, 12 October 2008. Please sign your posts!

Okay. First. Always pay heed to the status of the class before commenting (It says 'just starting', so I'm basically 'just starting'. Comments can flow in once it is complete). Rebalancing will occur later if by the time it's nearing completion, a rebalance is still needed.

Second, wizards always win. This used to be so in the past, and this will remain this way for as long as we live. No matter how overpowered certain things may look, a wizard is always better. Also, when this class gets done, not a single feature of it will be magical, whether it be the class features or the maneuvers. Also, lol. Surpassing the monk? It's not easy not to surpass the monk (in that almost all core classes already do it). If I'd have to wait 20 levels to get something as lame as damage reduction 10/magic at the end of the road, I'd sue somebody. No, the monk, closely tied to anything past paladin level 3, is one of the worst classes ever made and deserves to be outshone at everything.

Thirdly, I suggest you read Tome of Battle before commenting on the ability to recover all of the expended maneuvers with a single swift action, because that book shows three classes that do it pretty much exactly the same. Also, that book shows you that the fighter, the barbarian, the paladin and pretty much any martial core class is horrendously underpowered. Especially the monk, which makes you go 'oh please' at seeing that it only has average BAB progression. With that comes the fact that still none of the classes from that book can hold a stick to a wizard.

Fourthly, in a sterling effort to make an already bad class even worse, WotC thought they should implement something like multiclass restriction to a monk and make them Lawful. Which may make sense for a monk, but doesn't make sense for a martial artist. Basically, once you become a monk, you enter a vacuous hole where you can't escape from in DnD terms, which is annoying and completely flavour-destroying.

Fifthly, it doesn't have more skillpoints than the monk. Monks also get 4 + Int bonus skill points each level, but it's not my fault that the monk is Wisdom based and therefore has the intelligence of an average toddler. I bet they didn't bother to tell you that a lot of monks in the olden days were academics and craftsman, as well? Yet another thing that doesn't make sense.

Sixthly, sign your posts. It's annoying when people don't do it. --Sulacu 22:34, 11 October 2008 (MDT)

Saying "it's better than the monk" is not a good argument. The monk sucks. Everything posted should be better than a monk. If it's equivalent to the monk, or worse than the monk, it sucks. This is not. I'm not sure if it sucks or not because I haven't read it through yet, but if it's better than the monk than that is a step in the right direction. Surgo 09:55, 12 October 2008 (MDT)

Flows

Since nobody else seems to be working on them, I'm going to attempt to finish designing the maneuvers to fill out all six flows, like Sulacu was doing. Just like the martial adept classes, I intend to have about 120 by the time I'm done. Thank God I'm not doing much during winter layoff. Mythos 15:41, 22 November 2009 (MST)

Any suggestions would be appreciated, as I know some of you have added their own content to the list already. Come on, Wikians, we CAN finish this class if we discuss it enough... Mythos 15:45, 22 November 2009 (MST)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is a strong class, though it is still in the works. Hopefully the number of maneuvers can be increased in a few months. --72.175.18.70 15:17, 29 May 2011 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because you made it sound like a fairly interesting class. --72.175.18.70 15:17, 29 May 2011 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I got all I needed to know in a pleasing and organized fashion. --72.175.18.70 15:17, 29 May 2011 (MDT)

Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because there wasn't really too much for selling the class, just the statistics itself made it interesting, though you writing style did please. --72.175.18.70 15:17, 29 May 2011 (MDT)

Rating

Balance - 4/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because <the class acts like a monk but isn't as helpless as one. They are able to fend for their selves without being too powerful.> --136.235.244.62 17:02, 21 April 2014 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because <easy to understand, though you need to have some knowledge beforehand.> --136.235.244.62 17:02, 21 April 2014 (MDT)

Formatting - X/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --136.235.244.62 17:02, 21 April 2014 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because < it makes a great wanderer type of character. --> --136.235.244.62 17:02, 21 April 2014 (MDT)