Talk:Mage (5e Class)

I would like to know what spell lists this class can choose from?

Spell selection

The mage may only have one spell per spell level in their focus, or "spellbook". This means that they will have only 9 spells, even at level 20, unless the player makes class choices that grant bonus spells. Mages do not gain bonus spells from stats or level.

Because they are choosing so few spells, and they do not follow the bounds of normal magic classes, they may choose from the bard, sorcerer, warlock, and wizards schools. This allows for an excellent selection, but still grants no more than 9 spells total.

Adding cleric

Adding cleric spells, martial weapons, and generally making the arcane bolt even better than it is, will simply make this class overpowered. I would like to note once again that I created this as an alternate wizard/sorcerer. Adding cleric spells simply makes it the jack of all trades when it comes to magic. If you feel that it would make a good healer please make an alternate version.

Balance

Added Somatic component to arcane bolt. It is still not a cantrip, as it can only be cast 10 times per long rest and it is meant to be different than other spells. Also removed immunity from opportunity attacks for being within 5 feet, for balance.

If you choose to get the spellcasting feature of another class, you are granted that feature at its "lowest level" in order to discourage that. Such a feature stolen from another class will not level up any further. Doing so will simply grant masses of level 1 spells to choose from, and even then, not enough slots to use them all. I don't believe this is unbalanced, it simply makes for a quite low powered character.

After building a mage-sorlock (20th level variant human), I have come across a balance issue. Suppose that we take Pact Magic at 3rd level. This grants spell slots and spells known which now count as mage spells for us and we can use any of our spell slots to cast them. At 7th level we select Font of Magic which gives us sorcery points we can't spend yet, so nothing of value right away, but at 10th level we select Metamagic so that we have some great options without multiclassing to sorcerer or warlock. At 14th level we can select invocations which helps our Eldritch Blast quite a bit, and suddenly we are floating in spell slots because several of our favorite antics are covered with at-will invocations. Now at 17th level we select a pact, and we have many of the best parts of the two classes, and the spell slots of both at 20th level. At this point there is very little that our mage-sorlock cannot do, and with 4 level 5 spell slots that recharge every short rest, the warlock pact magic feature has more than doubled our available spells known as bonus spells.

The main problem with this is that if we lose our focus, we are out all of our spells. On the up side though, our 15 warlock spells would be readily available once we make a new focus; it's just the 9 wizard spells that we would actually lose. The solution for this is simple though; if we take pact of the blade, we can make any magic weapon our pact weapon. If we find a staff that can also act as a focus, we can dismiss our focus and re-summon it at will.

To recap, this level 20 character is almost a full sorcerer, most of a warlock, and has the expertise of a bard while using only Charisma for his -now 24- known spells which cannot be taken away without our player feeling like the DM is targeting him for power gaming (which he is).

My solution is simple, I think. One should have to multiclass to get base class abilities. Zibby (talk) 03:26, 29 October 2018 (MDT)

Replacing the ability modifier used by any ability with your charisma modifier sounds nice, but doesn't make sense and isn't balanced. Other classes do not get to use a single ability score for everything, you should have to consider your options and where you put your points as you build a mage. Zibby (talk) 01:22, 10 January 2019 (MST)

Dead levels =

The unfinished tag with the reasoning "multiple dead levels" is not appropriate. The original wizard has 8 such "dead" levels, but actually, they are gaining spells of new levels.

This class does contain a "dead" level where nothing in particular is gained, but adding additional things at various levels simply for the sake of adding things, does not create a balanced class. The base classes do not gain bells and whistles at every level, and niether does a mage. Zibby (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2017 (MDT)

The PHB wizard does not have any dead levels. Every level they are either gaining a class feature, an ASI, or a new spell slot level.

At the moment, this class has nothing at 14th level. I would sooner multiclass into something else than gain nothing but 4 hit points. Marasmusine (talk) 01:41, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

Also, why the redundancy of having access to both the wizard spell list and the sorcerer spell list? And what's with arcane bolt? "a bonus spell which you may cast without using a spell slot" - a cantrip, then? Presumably the spell attack is a ranged spell attack? What does "at 1st tier" mean? Tiers aren't mentioned anywhere else. Marasmusine (talk) 01:56, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

Oh, the tier reference was a relic from 4th edition, thank you. I have updated that bit to make more sense. The sorcerer and wizard have slightly different spells that they can cast, depending on where one is sourcing thier spell list. This class is meant to have access to a wide number of spells, but be limited on how many they can have at a given time. I will add something for 14th level when something good/useful occurs to me. Zibby (talk) 21:56, 4 September 2017 (MDT)

Give and Take

The Mage class is made with the idea in mind of being similar to the wizard and other arcane casters but unlike the wizard the mage doesn't waste time every day choosing what spells to bring and just uses the spells he had prepared already. Since this was not stated anywhere expressly, I added detail to what happens when a Mage wants to learn a new spell. Since the mage can learn spells from things like spell scrolls and spell books, like wizards do, then it only makes sense that the source of the spell is consumed by the action, like when wizards do it. However when wizards learn a new spell it just becomes a part of their spell book, Mages do not have a spellbook to be storing their old spells in, so I changed it so that when a new spell is learned then the old spell is ejected from the arcane focus in the form of a spell scroll, this way the spell still exists and can be relearned later if you wanted to. Since both the new spell and the old spell are the same level, and both most likely came from spell scrolls, then there is no increase in value for the player, simply a change in their available spells to cast. I also made it take 1 hour of focus to change the spells because that way it takes a short enough amount of time to be in the theme of the class while also being long enough the player won't be able to change their spells constantly.

The reason I reverted it is because if you make them eject a Spell Scroll, then you give the player a free magic item. Which from the current wording, since a wizard does not consume whatever they are copying the spell from into their spell book. Thus a Mage will be able to create a new Spell Scroll at least 8 times during a Long Rest. According to the DMG, a spell scroll is minimally worth 50 gp, for a common spell. So to be able to create 8 of these during a Long Rest is essentially allowing the player to spawn at least 400 gp between each Long Rest. This free magic item can also be used to allow the Mage or another party member to cast that level spell without the need of wasting a spellslot.

As for your reasoning, classes like Sorcerer and Warlock have a similar feature to the Mage, only be able to gain and change spells upon level up which is what I am assuming was the original intent of this class. Because if you read the previous comments: "Because they are choosing so few spells, and they do not follow the bounds of normal magic classes, they may choose from the bard, sorcerer, warlock, and wizards schools. This allows for an excellent selection, but still grants no more than 9 spells total." Thus, if you're allowing spell preparation combined with the amount of different types of spells a Mage can learn, this makes the Mage far superior to a normal Wizard, Warlock or Sorcerer due to sheer versatility. -- Alearori (talk) 12:18, 15 March 2018 (MDT)

I understand you concern, and after reading you comments I changed the wording slightly, now it is explicitly stated that the source of the new spell is consumed and to learn a new spell you must expend a spell slot. This means that a sheet from a spell book or a spell scroll would turn to ash or something similar after the mage learns the new spell which prevents just making mass copies of the same spell, also since there is now a spell slot cost a Mage can't just make free uses of magic spells for himself or his party.

Also you are a little off on two things. 1. magic scrolls are worth 50gp, however if the source was another spell scroll then no value is added, also it explicitly states you must focus on the spell to gain the new spell, which means you could do this process during a short rest or travelling maybe, not during a long rest. 2. It isn't stated that the mage can change their spells known when they level up, only that when they unlock a new level of spell slot their gain a spell of that level, which means reading the original version that the spell you choose at first level stays with you whether you like it or not until level 20, unless you have access to spell scrolls or a spellbook with a spell you like better.

That doesn't really solve the problem since the text doesn't say what the source has to be. Thus players can circumvent it by: lets say the original spell is on a spell scroll, then they copy the spell into a book worth 25 gp or a sheet of paper worth 2 sp, and then copy that into their focus, destroying the book or sheet of paper to get a spell scroll worth 50 gp or higher. Thus they still have the original scroll and essentially made a profit of 25gp. And since it's short rest, it means a player can actually do it 24 times per day to actually make an upwards of 600 gp this way, especially on non-adventuring days or a Mage decides to stay in an inn all day making these scrolls for money or up until they finish using up all their spellslots.

Also magic scrolls are worth at least 50 gp if its a common one, and is worth up to 50,000 gp or more if its a legendary magic scroll. So if a Mage does this with a 9th level spell, they turn 25gp into 50,000+ gp. Similarly once they get the first scroll, they can use the money they attained above to buy the new scrolls for the higher level spells. And then rinse and repeat.

And I was saying the fact they get so many spell choices, is the reason why they shouldn't be allowed to prepare spells. It'd be much better to add that they can change their known spells upon level up like Sorcerer or Warlock to not have to deal with the free money generation problem. -- Alearori (talk) 13:14, 15 March 2018 (MDT)

You should refer to the PHB and DMG for spell scrolls and spellbooks here, the reason being that when a wizard (argueably the best class in the game to be making scrolls and books) make a new page in their spell book at the very least it costs them 50gp to make the new page, which increases with the level of the spell. This has to do with the materials to make the spell viable. Also spell scrolls and pages from a spell book are listed as possible sources, but simply by having the name of a spell, or something like a sketch of the spell's formula wouldn't work for this class since it wouldn't be viable for a wizard to use such a source. And again I would like to state that it takes 1 hour of "focus" to change just one spell, meaning if a mage did nothing but convert pages from someone else's spellbook into spell scrolls they could maybe get 8 scrolls done after a full day's work, and by removing those pages they also reduce the value of the spellbook in question. If a player wanted to make money, it would be faster to just make spell scrolls the normal way and sell the spellbook rather than trying to use their class features in some kind of an exploit. Also it isn't possible for a mage to absorb spells of a higher level than they have access to, so your loop of buying more and more valuable spells isn't possible

On your comment about the Mage having spells prepared, please realize that a level 11 Mage only has 6 spells known, plus whatever bonus spells give themselves, while other classes like the wizard or cleric would have at least 12 spells prepared, and since it not only takes an hour but also drains spell slots to change their spells known I think that Mages have a great amount of possible versatility, however that only applies in the long term, and that unless they know what to expect days in advance a Mage might have trouble changing their known spells into other spells. All a DM has to do to keep a Mage player weak is either not provide a lot of spell books and scrolls or just have the party require all the Mage's spell slots not leaving them extra slots to use and change their spells known. If a Mage player wanted to have a lot more possible spells, their only real option is to buy a large spellbook or many spell scrolls and keep them on their person at all times, and since both of those are open to damage or being stolen that isn't a good idea. As an added example of why this isn't overpowered, if a Mage encounters a scroll of something like say a 3rd level fireball spell, but cast with a 9th level slot, then the Mage in question could take an hour and expend a 3rd level slot gaining the spell fireball, but losing the added value of the original scroll since it would now be weaker.

Okay, let us assume that it now takes 50 gold to transcribe a spell into a new book. The spell scroll abuse would then be applicable in the situation a 3rd level Mage get their hands on a 2nd level or higher spell scroll because those are considered uncommon magic items according to the SRD, and thus worth around 500 gp when the player attempts to sell it. Thus it the player would start making profits of 450 gp per day minimally assuming they only make one and find a buyer in 1d6 days according to page 130 of the DMG. And let's use your estimate that a player only makes 8 of these per day, even though it should only be 2 because they only have two 2nd level spell slots at this level. But to make 8 of this per day is a minimum of 3600 gold per day. And asking for a DM to never provide the players with spell scrolls is unrealistic, because what if the DM was a newbie and did not know about this abuse, and the player then does it the moment they get their hands on a spell scroll?

And no, it would not be faster to make spell scrolls the normal way because according to page 129 of the DMG, to craft a Uncommon magic item will minimally require 500 gp, which is 10x more expensive then it is to transcribe and create via Mage.

As for the spell preparation, I would still rather it not spit out magic items which is my main concern with your change. Also, in your example, if a player just transcribes the scroll according to page 200 of the DMG, and consumes that transcription instead, then the original scroll wouldn't have lost value. -- Alearori (talk) 12:43, 16 March 2018 (MDT)

Alright, this could be argued further as to why the current set-up isn't broken, which would include the fact higher level spells cost more to put into spellbooks, but I won't press the issue. My problem with how the class worked originally was that as soon as a Mage found a spell they liked slightly more, they then had to spend an unspecified amount of time and gold to put it into their focus, and the old spell went POOF. My change was put in place to remedy these 2 issues, but considering the lengths you will go to argue, I will simply change it again into something less abusable.

This current change can still be used for gold farming purposes, just a bit more convoluted. Because let's say the player has a 2nd level spell, a 1st level common spell scroll, and 50 gp with a book/paper to transcribe it. So the process then just changes to:

Step 1: The Mage transcribes his current known 2nd level spell into the paper/book for 50 gp. Alternatively, the Mage can find a 2nd level scroll and transcribe that onto the paper/book for 50 gp.

Step 2: Now, the Mage swap his 1st level spell in scroll with the 2nd level spell. This would turn the common 1st level scroll into a 2nd level scroll which is a uncommon magic item. The value of the 1st level spell scroll essentially quintupled and the spell scroll is now worth 500 gp.

Step 3: Then the player can absorb the 2nd level spell he transcribed at step 1 to regain it and the 1st level spell is now on a useless piece of paper or book which can now be scrapped.

Step 4: Sell the scroll for 500 gp. This gold can then be used to buy any the common 1st level spell scrolls for 100 gp with a profit of 400gp (25gp of this profit can be used to buy another book if necessary)

Step 5: Repeat from step 1

Thus all this change does is become a magic item item rarity swapping mechanism. You might as well just use wording for spell preparation and nerf the amount of different classes of spells the Mage can take from. -- Alearori (talk) 08:04, 17 March 2018 (MDT)

While I am glad that you have a burning passion for this class, I will just say flatly that you are wrong this time. Since a Mage cannot swap spells of a different level, and since the swap means that a 2nd level spell scroll stays a 2nd level spell scroll, as well as a spellbook page stays a spellbook page, then that means that no value is added or created by the Mage's actions. Since the change is the way it is currently, that means that no spell scrolls pop out anymore, and your proposed loop would be better suited for any wizard in the party, which I don't think is even within the rules then.

"When you wish to imbue a new spell into your focus it takes you 1 hour of focus which can be done during a short rest, after which the spell in your focus and the spell you are learning switch places, with the old spell now occupying the scroll, page, etc. and the spell you wanted to learn now in your focus" This does not specify it cannot be of different levels. And the loop can't be done using a regular SRD wizard because a real wizard doesn't spit out or change magic items, unlike what this line of text is implying. -- Alearori (talk) 21:24, 17 March 2018 (MDT)

As stated at the start of the class, a Mage only has 1 spell for each level, aside from bonus spells, and since the new spells are not bonus spells that means that there is only 1 spot open for spells of each level. You cannot use the base Mage class to have 2 level 3 spells at the same time, unless one is a bonus spell, which spells gained from books and scrolls are not. So as a result, I did not feel it needed to be restated that the new spell and old spell MUST be the same level, as it had already been established.

I do like the wording as it is currently, and it does capture the original intent and feel of the Mage without proliferating magic items for free. It is interesting that this can trade spells out of a spellbook now, but it feels appropriate. The class feels fairly balanced, in that Arcane Bolt is a powerful almost-cantrip, but having only one spell of each level offsets that power nicely. Zibby (talk) 01:55, 22 October 2018 (MDT)

Gaining tricks of the trade at additional levels is extremely overpowered. The mage is not meant to have all of the things from every class, tricks of the trade is meant to give features about as much as any other class. It is not intended to make the mage more powerful than any other class, or even equal to other classes. The strength of the mage is in having a wide variety of skills. Zibby (talk) 16:25, 2 October 2018 (MDT)

Charisma vs Wisdom

This class is the very essence of irresponsible, using pure willpower to buy past the learning and memorization of a normal wizard. That doesn't sound like wisdom, it's charisma. Please don't change this class to a wisdom based class, it doesn't fit in the least.

Adding spells known

The recent edit of adding spells known to be more like other full casters was undone, as it defeats the point of this class entirely. This is not meant to be a wizard with a few spells that you don't have to bother preparing. This is about a character that has found a shortcut to casting and memorizing spells in order to get by. Please make a wizard if you want a class with more spells known at each level. For a mage, getting more spells is intentionally more difficult unless your DM gives you lots of scrolls and spellbooks. Even so, casting them all gets a bit dicey and takes time and planning. Again, please don't try to make the mage into just another wizard but with a fancy staff. Zibby (talk) 07:45, 28 August 2020 (MDT)

Adding Expertise

As it stands, practice makes perfect is a really watered-down version of expertise. I recommend simply replacing it with expertise then, if you wish for it to accrue the same bonuses as it would the srd feature. An alternative is to instead choose a single ability and all skills associated with said ability get a bonus. Maybe not double proficiency, but a small one. Sonamagaful Talk 09:51 18 September 2022 (HST)

I agree that this is watered down, but this is watered down by design due to this class being a full caster, rather than the 1/3 caster that a rogue can be. Several of the things that this class can do are also watered down because of the capstone ability that makes countering or disrupting your concentration spells quite difficult, along with the fact that you can extend a concentration spell beyond what is normally possible. This is not meant as a dip or multiclass, it is meant to build up to the capstone. Zibby (talk) 16:06, 19 September 2022 (MDT)

If you wish to improve on this capstone ability i suggest layering on more magical abilities to replace this one. Instead of gaining double proficiency in a skill or tool, perhaps instead a mage gets advantage on concentration checks, or gets a sort of "Buyback" for a concentration spell, allowing them to expend a spell slot of the same level to instantly succeed on a concentration check Sonamagaful Talk 00:13 23 September 2022 (HST)