Talk:Machine Mutant (Dragon Ball Supplement)

I got caught wildly off guard by this. I had just finished an entire page filled with traits and features after about an hour and a half, and when I tried submitting it, this post took priority and wiped out all of my work. Happy to see others are invested in GT and this race in general though lmao. I'll attempt to recreate what I can. I had originally planned on making the Neo Machine Mutant a subrace, but I've started to realize they're so vastly different from the normal Machine Mutant that decided to just create the Neo Machine Mutant itself. There's really nothing that carries over other than Liquefaction. Jotting this down while my old work is still fresh in my mind, these are the things I had as traits:

Regeneration (I took and reworded the Majin's version since they're ultimately very similar), I gave them a lack of aging effect and the ability to breathe in space, I also gave them the ability to learn Liquefaction without meeting the prerequisites while having it be a fundamental technique (might change that). After I finish readding my traits, I'm going to go to the Martial Artist section and create a new version of Possession centered around the Neo Machine Mutant variant.

Yo!.. sorry about that, but in my case, the page was clean, without any thing.... but hey! atleast we know how to go on it. about Neo Machines and normal Machines, they can work like Sub-Races, while in base they will have same abilitys, related to technology (like having a Ray Gun attached to them, have advantage to interact with other machines and such), while Neo-Machines would have more Baby/Kamin/Orin related features.

About the Neo-Machine Possession, i already once did it something akin to it. here:

Tuffle Parasite

Cost: 12 ki points

As an action, a creature you can touch must attempt a Wisdom saving trow. If it fails, it has the Hallucinating condition. At the start of its next turn, the creature must attempt an Intelligence Saving trow, ignoring the effects of Hallucinating. If they fail, they are still Hullucinating. At the start of their next turn, they must attempt a Charisma saving trow. On failure, it is completely controlled by you.

The creature becomes an obedient servant to you and will follow your commands as an absolute truth, but can still question actions that would bring injury or negative effects to itself. Creatures you have controlled with this Technique are counted as Charmed when you are not parasitising them.

You can parasitise the body of one of the creatures you control while it is in this state. During parasitisation, you can use the creature's physical stats instead of your own for rolls and have access to all of its features. You can only parasitise one creature at a time, as soon as you decide to parasitise another, you automatically leave the one you were originally parasitising.

While parasitising a creature, you become a single being with characteristics reminiscent of both participants.

---Midalos (talk) 18:32, 8 November 2024 (MST)

I like the base of the idea. I'll most likely rework it and try to balance it with Absorption so the two aren't to off in power, but with how Absorption works it could take me awhile to make sure one doesn't fully overpower the other. I appreciate the help with this. Don't worry too much about the erasure, I've managed to re-add most of my old ideas. I think the issue just stems from me submitting mine around the same time (or right before?) yours.

Yeah i think it's something like this. About the Parasite, i think its very balanced as while absorption you gain a bonus to your scores and can have multiples at the same time, the Parasite is more about the ideia of getting one creature as your "main" body to use it (just as Baby used Vegeta's Body near to 100% of his time after parasiting Vegeta) and maybe have small group of creatures under your command. (Anyway, if ya want to talk about the setting, call me on Discord: elldasm.w)

For the time being I'm going to reset the page to read as Neo-Machine Mutant in other places since I'm still learning how formatting works, and I'm not sure how to change the name itself to just Neo Machine Mutant. The reason for this is that I have 0 plans to create any other kind of Machine Mutant, but I don't want to request deletion if it's not necessary or cause more hassle for anyone else. For now, I've reworked everything to revolve exclusively around Neo Machine Mutants, so I'm going to begin working on abilities in the Martial Artist class. Spooks2222 (talk) 19:23, 8 November 2024 (MST)

Thank you for adding Regeneration. It had completely slipped my mind when I was adding the traits. I went back and reworded Tuffleization and the Tuffle Parasite on the Martial Artist page. Pretty proud of how everything turned out. I'll run some balance tests over the next week or so and see how the class scales.

my only concern at the moment is the part about hybridising a demon and having the potara bonuses (because I don't remember heroes very well, I'll have to rewatch it) and the way the parasite ability is written, it seems that you can create a parasite in a creature, using another creature that's already been parasitised.

What can be added to avoid confusion, is that you can leave a parasitised creature and it is now in the possession effect of the class itself, until you return to it and having a limit being the already placed of parasitised creatures that you can leave and enter at any time.

Also, no problem bruv, i just love the setting and want to get this to it's best.

From what I remember, when Baby possessed Janemba and Hatchiyack he fused with them in a more permanent fashion. That's the main reason I went with Potara fusion, but it might be much more fair to have it as a permanent Metamoran Fusion Dance. I do also agree it could be busted to have two Tuffles, both with their host body combined with their own, fusing together to create a Potara level fusion. So to mitigate that, I think I'll reduce it to Metamoran fusion so the numbers stay MUCH lower. It won't entirely solve the issue, but ultimately the only way this could be abused is if the Game Master running the session allows two players to abuse it. Otherwise it should be safe for normal play. Spooks2222 (talk) 20:15, 8 November 2024 (MST)

Tuffle Changes

I noticed the stuff I had added was changed again in the Martial Artist tab. I'm not too sure what issues you have with Demons permanently fusing with Tuffles. Demons are strong, but with the way that I intentionally built the ability, it would be very hard to exploit. You'd have issues with Saiyans much sooner than you'd have issues with Demons, because Saiyans can reach naturally MUCH higher numbers due to their abilities. Compare a Tuffleized Legendary Saiyan, or even just a normal Saiyan with no tuffle abilities to a Demon Fusion, the Saiyan will win 9 times out of 10 due to their wider variety of options and boosts earlier and late game. I don't think there's any reason to remove it. It's "canon" (as canon as anything in DBH can be), and it isn't as busted as I think you might be interpreting it, especially after you lowered the fusion's power to that of the metamo ring. That part I actually liked, because it feels more natural. I started this as somewhat of a passion project since I'm a big fan of GT, but every time I come back to continue working on things or make sure they're balanced, I'm finding the stuff I added altered or entirely removed. I still would like feedback, but I'd also appreciate being able to not worry too much about changes being made before I can even test how strong they are. Spooks2222 (talk) 17:45, 9 November 2024 (MST)

Edit: I don't want to sacrifice accuracy for "balance" when we've already hit a fantastic sweet spot with what is and isn't strong. You can create any two characters to test it and see that they don't stack up to the same level as some other races even with their benefits. Neo Machine Mutants already don't have that many features, I don't want to cut even more of it when there's nothing that truly makes it busted without the DM forcefully giving their players every tool to make it busted. I wouldn't change Potara earrings to be weaker just because they have the potential to be OP just because a Majin player might absorb a ton of people, then fuse with a Bio-Android that's absorbed a ton of people. It's possible to break anything. Let's just leave it up to the DMs to decide what works for their campaigns. Spooks2222 (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2024 (MST)

Don't Worry about me going crazy on your work, cuz i really like them, it's just i maybe... spend too much time reading this class and setting, so i notice a lot of possible combos and/or ways to "exploit" to rules, they usually end being nothing crazy to worry....anyway, i really love GT and Heroes (As a Raditz enjoyer, SSJ3 Raditz vs Turles was peak), so i see all your work with good eyes and really like them, really good job bruv! ----Midalos (talk) 18:25, 9 November 2024 (MST)

I appreciate it. I know it doesn't come from a bad place. I actually really like how you reworded the Tuffleization to show the Fusion benefits below it, when beforehand I only wrote it to just say "This is the same as Metamoran Fusion." One project that I do want to work on next is maybe adding the Shenron race from GT, but that might be awhile away since I have to do a lot more in-depth research on how they function. Thanks for the support Spooks2222 (talk) 18:41, 9 November 2024 (MST)

About the Dragon Race, i... don't think we have info about it to make a race of it (atleast, not like Saiyans, frost demons or namekian), but maybe we should focus into the Alien Race, as this race would allow to make most of the less explored races (Jiren, Beerus, Bojack and 100% of the GT Aliens races).

I see the Alien Race more like a "Build Your Own" type, as it only has "1" feature that allows you pick more racial features and the more you level up, they get stronger (just like humans and cerealians have features that increase it's power with time), like the Rubber Head Alien that was used in place like before, but as i said, having features that evolve with time. ----Midalos (talk) 18:49, 9 November 2024 (MST)

The alien race would be about the same in terms of info at that point. My general idea with the Dragon race was that you'd be able to pick between a few subraces similar to how the Shadow Dragons are themed around pollution, fire, earth, and whatever Syn Shernon is. Then I'd add forms which increase your power based on however many number of Dragon Balls you had at the time, and with each one you collect you can gain new features from the other subraces along with strict stat buffs. Main issues with this would be "Can they be any dragon balls?" "Does the type influence the level of power you gain?" stuff like that. Circling back though, I do think the general alien race could use a rework. I don't think I'd be able to do it myself honestly. I feel like it's incredibly customizable, and I don't think I could ever account for all the options you could create. I think interpreting original Dragon Ball works is way easier for my current skill level in 5th edition homebrew. Spooks2222 (talk) 19:17, 9 November 2024 (MST)

Balance Change

after checking and doing some tests with lv1 character sheets, having Liquefaction at lv1 is simply OP to the point of being a powerful Game Break. Let's get on with the explanation:

In this Setting we have the damage Threshold equal to your STR modifier multiplied by 2, so it's possible for a lv1 character to have 10 Threshold (which in turn is already very strong, since 1d4 + 5 with maximum damage gives 9 damage, so it's necessary to use technique effects to deal damage, but it's soon balanced since lv1-4 characters don't have as much HP), if we give Liquefaction at lv1 to a character with possibly also have +5 in DEX, not counting the bonuses that will be received for liquefaction and Grade 5, it already becomes almost impossible to cause damage, since it starts to be necessary to take 15 damage to be able to cause some damage, if we add the bonuses (possible +6 in the DEX score with Grade 5), a character will have a REDUCTION of -8 in damage and even if we consider the damage reduction after the Threshold, it makes the character only receive at least 2 damage.

And good luck for a character with 1d4/1d6 (if it's a Saiyan) up to lv4 to deal 18 damage with so little Ki to be able to combine techniques properly and as i said before, even with +5 can only deal a maximum of 9 damage, if it's a Saiyan it can deal 11 damage, but there is still the reduction, so even if the Saiyan manages to deal 11 damage, it has actually dealt 3-6 damage to a character who is perpetually in that state of damage reduction (since with the Grades the cost is 0 to maintain).

Even in Nat20, 2d4+5 deals a maximum 13 damage (reduced to 5-8 damage) or in case of Saiyans 2d6+5 (reduced to 9-12 damage), but the only way to deal damage being a Nat20? that's not fun to play against or to have someone in your party overshinning everyone, as they are just untouchable.

That's why I'll have to remove the part about receiving the Liquefaction transformation from the race.

---

Midalos (talk) 08:09, 18 November 2024 (MST)

I'm readding it and removing the Grade 5 trait. I think your goal should be to think about how to balance things instead of removing features the bare-minimum alternative. It's generally smarter to at the very least discuss the features before removing them. I'm going to lay out the stats once, and then I'm going to revert it to a weaker state. The first thing we're going to address is the "damage threshold equal to STR mod multiplied by 2." I haven't seen anywhere in the wiki that a "damage threshold" is mentioned, especially not in the class itself. Using CNTRL+F only results in techniques that create damage threshold, which still is not "STR mod multiplied by 2." If this is a variant rule you're running, I cannot account for every variant rule that might be added to the system. The house rules that DMs run is up to them. Regardless, that's not part of Liquefaction. Liquefaction exclusively states "You gain a damage reduction increases by your Dexterity modifier". Ignoring the bad english of that Technique, that only implies a max DR of +6 at level 1. Now, I'll cover the statistics. The following stats are assuming that (somehow) you start with a 20 in all stats.

• The DR for Liquefaction is Dex Mod, meaning max you can have is +5 at level 1-3. Assuming that you're facing a level 1 martial artist, the minimum they could deal with 20 in all stats is 6 damage, the max would be 9. This is not counting basic techniques, which under your logic should be "too busted" because they can one-shot most characters (Kamehameha, Tri-Beam, and Makoho with Final Shine being the obvious picks)
• No, they are not "perpetually in a state of damage reduction". With maximum stats you start with you'd have a ki of 1+Con(5), so a total of 6 Ki. The activation is 2 Ki + 3 per turn. Meaning you can only have this form active for 2 turns, unless you use any Ki related abilities, which would then reduce you to 0 Ki and end it in 1 turn. At level 4 the max you would be able to sustain it for would be 3 turns, again, assuming you don't use any of your other Ki related abilities. You would only be able to use this feature once before being unable to do anything for the rest of the day.

With that out of the way, lets compare it to other level 1 features that you haven't taken issue with, that are the same as or stronger than Liquefaction.

• Afterimage Technique allows you to force a Wisdom saving throw on the target with a DC of 15 at level one. On success the enemy cannot target you until the start of your next turn. This costs 2 ki, meaning it could be used 3 times consecutively, meaning that for 3 turns the enemy can't damage you. Alternatively, Stand Ground allows you to half damage from all sources until your next turn. This could be used 6 times total. This is the exact same thing you had complained about with Liquefaction. You can run the numbers directly next to each other to see how they compare. To quote you,

"And good luck for a character with 1d4/1d6 (if it's a Saiyan) up to lv4 to deal 18 damage with so little Ki to be able to combine techniques properly and as i said before, even with +5 can only deal a maximum of 9 damage, if it's a Saiyan it can deal 11 damage, but there is still the reduction, so even if the Saiyan manages to deal 11 damage, it has actually dealt 3-6 damage to a character who is perpetually in that state of damage reduction (since with the Grades the cost is 0 to maintain)."

So to conclude, Liquefaction will be re-added without Grade 5 buffs. In the future, please discuss larger changes before making them.

Damage Threshold rule is in the Rules of the setting itself, it's not on the class, it is in the setting. Also, i kindly ask you to read the Grades effects, as they give you at grade 2 and 3 a +2 each to one score of your choice in the transformation, grade 4 and 5 reduces the cost by 2 each and in the rules of transformation allows to go beyond your score limit at the moment (so a character at lv1 with 20 in DEX can go to 26) and in the same rule of transformations, if a form has it cost to maintain turned to 0, it becomes a "permanent" as the only way to deactivate is by the creature itself or by using Miracle Kablam-Slash/Spirit Fission against it. I don't want to sound rude, but i kindly ask you to read all the setting rules, class, races and content before any change or creation, as it's balanced to normal campaings and the setting itself alone.

Please maintain balance, i know we all want to have awesome techniques, features and so on, but if one player is far stronger than the other, no fun exist.

---

Midalos (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2024 (MST)

Variant Rules are not mandatory, they're optional. The same way Multiclassing, 5ft Grid, and Feats themselves are variant rules, and considered optional. This still does not change the entire focal point of my discussion, which is that it would be readded without Grade 5. You didn't respond to Stand Ground or Afterimage Technique, which both function on par with Liquefaction. To avoid sounding rude, reread the discussion we're having. It's essential to maintain balance in the setting you're trying to improve on. Spooks2222 (talk) 13:41, 18 November 2024 (MST)

Stand Ground and Afterimage can be used only ONCE per turn, as they cost a Bonus Action to do in your turn or as a Reaction to be attack/make a save, so you can't use them more them twice per turn, even more that any attack that bring harm to the creature break the Afterimage, so you can use it to run away or to make a more complex approach to your target.

Stand Ground in the other hand is until the start of your next turn and you must spend a Action or Bonus action to it, but you can't move, so you are locked in place trying to defend yourself.

The thing is, both are more risky to take, as you lose your moviment to defend yourself or you try to be invisible (but if someone has ki sense, it's just lost ki points) and you can't attack if you don't want to break your cover.

Liquefaction is a passive damage reduction (Damage Reduction alone a very strong thing to a degree that is hard to see in any content), if you have a passive reduction along with threshold and high values to both, you are just unbeatable.

Also, if you are going to play a setting, it's expected to the rules of the setting are used. balancing things and making things that feels that race is hard, i know that, one wrong writting and BOOM everything go out the window.

i kindly ask you again to read everything on the setting, i know it's gonna take a while, but it will everything flow like the rest to all of us have fun playing. :]

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Midalos (talk) 13:52, 18 November 2024 (MST)

I never said you could use Stand Ground or Afterimage more than once per turn. Again, please read what I had discussed. You are capable of using Stand Ground to halve the damage taken from all sources (not including saving throws), which is higher than Liquefaction's damage reduction early and exponentially more late game with much higher frequency than Liquefaction due to it having a Ki Cost of 1. Being locked in place does not effect much, as you would be using this in response to being attacked at range where you would typically respond with ranged attacks anyways, or you'd use it in response to physical attacks, which keeps the enemy in your physical range. I think you misunderstand why Afterimage is powerful. The invisibility doesn't effect much, it's the fact that as a reaction to being attacked, you can move out of the attack range. The invisibility is a minor bonus, as the enemy cannot change the course of their attack in the middle of firing. Liquefaction itself is not passive, because it costs Ki. It is active damage reduction and more expensive than other features. Once again, threshold is a variant rule. If we take Threshold into account like you do, then that makes Stand Ground even more powerful than it already is.

Damage threshold was only just added this year, and as a result, most techniques haven't been changed to work with it. I've been using this setting since long before that. It is not expected, nor is it forced onto the DMs or players. To say that it's "expected" when it hasn't existed or been taken into account by the setting itself is entirely untrue. If that's your preferred playstyle, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But it is not the expectation.

You can continually ask me to reread the entire setting, but if you're not going to contribute to the discussion, you're not going to improve the page. Right now the fact remains that Liquefaction is a more expensive ability than 2 other level 1 abilities which both result in higher guaranteed effects, that can be used at a much higher rate. Those are the baseline. If those techniques are changed and act differently, then as a result, I'll change Liquefaction to play better under those rules. Otherwise, there's no reason to be blaming Liquefaction for doing something that other level 1 techniques can accomplish better. I get where you see the issue at, but you haven't intentionally addressed any issues with the page. Again, I'd like to discuss it here rather than hastily making edits to fix a problem that isn't within the ability itself. Spooks2222 (talk) 14:10, 18 November 2024 (MST)

As long as the free Grade 5 transformation is removed as it made it too powerful, I believe the feature works sufficiently, as it highlights what makes the race unique much like other races having one powerful feature to represent them effectively. In the context of editing this or any PECR setting, most "variant rules" should be factored into feature design, as they either balance the game or/and are integral to the setting itself, being considered when creating creatures for the bestiary or NPC page which work as examples. "Optional rules," are standalone, meant to offer alternative playstyles without affecting the base rules and are never considered when editing. --P@uL (talk) 14:27, 18 November 2024 (MST)

Previously I had added the "No prerequisites" feature to target specifically the level required to unlock the feature, but under the context of your revision, I believe it makes more sense. If there are any other changes we should make to it, let me know. While I do believe variant rules should be applied to the setting's creation as a whole, some of the abilities given less attention operate incredibly strong when variant rules are taken into account as I've outlined before. I imagine this is mainly because it was added in 2024, when those abilities that have slipped by are from years ago. A lot of them similar to their original effects from years ago when I first started playing, functioning as if the DR doesn't exist. That might be a larger project to tackle at some point in the future if it should be taken into account for the overall content of the page. That way when I go to base certain features around the Martial Arts class, the features inside accurately reflect what you're going for. Thank you for your time. Spooks2222 (talk) 14:38, 18 November 2024 (MST)