Talk:Living Maug (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Optimization or Race?

Should this really be treated as a race or put under optimizations? I mean a +10 str at ECL 3 is not very fair, and I feel that races should be based on balance, not exploiting the rules. Thoughts? --Green Dragon 23:02, 27 December 2007 (MST)

I think of it as an optimized build. I was playing with my new "Savage Species" and exploring the possibilities. I just don't know where to put an optimized race. As to balance, I would only say that sometimes the rules allow you to do things that damage the game, but sometimes the rules prevent you from doing things that are good for the game, and that's when it helps to know some work-arounds within the rules. What if you want to play a big, strong race that is not dimwitted or associated with evil? Not very many people want to slog through a dozen plus levels of Storm Giant, or what have you. And for better or for worse, there are a lot of ways to buff your str really high and really fast; I doubt this is the worst of them.

So in summary, I guess I would say that I think there is a role for this race, ECL 3 and all, in the right campaign, but there is no question that it is optimized up the wazoo. -- S1Q3T3 11:10, 28 December 2007 (MST)

Another thought. By an accident of the rules, this build has no constitution bonus. In line with the variant rules described elsewhere, one could shift +4 of Str. to Con., and have +6 Str., +4 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Con. That would bring it more in line with other large races and eliminate the +10. The rebalanced race could be cut loose from its backstory and presented as a Giant (Seamost), an ordinary, man-born-of-woman race (could be the ancestors of the half-giants?) I would only want to do that if you considered the final result balanced. Then the "Living Maug" could stand as an optimization, and the "Giant" could be plugged in anywhere as a human-like race without the baggage of an Ogre or what have you. -- S1Q3T3 11:33, 28 December 2007 (MST)

Just to elaborate on the point made above (that there are a lot of ways to get your strength up) consider this example, from Savage Species: the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, another ECL 3 build, gets three levels of monstrous humanoid (LA:+0), +8 Str., and +4 to Dex, Con, and Cha. Large size, and +9 natural armor. That's right; at the same ECL as my I'm-a-real-boy-now Maug, this build settles for 2 fewer points of strength but +4 to Con and Wis and an additional +2 to natural armor compared to my build's +7. I don't know what they were smoking when they made this an LA +0 race, but it's all summarized on the chart on page 217. -- S1Q3T3 14:31, 31 December 2007 (MST)

Another example (because they're fun to come up with, not because I'm arguing with anybody): Orc + Draconic Template + Feral Template + 1st lvl barbarian. LA: +2, ECL:3. Stats: +10 Str., +4 Con., -2 Wis., -6 Int. So he's not winning any chess games, but he has +10 Str., +14 when raging, +7 natural armor, claw attacks and skill bonuses . . . second thought, maybe you let him win the chess game. Happy New Year! -- S1Q3T3 20:02, 31 December 2007 (MST)

Happy new years to you as well (damn, don't I have better things to do with my time on new years eve :P)! Anyway, I looked at your posts above and I understand how you are trying to justify this as being a playable race. However, I feel that, since this draws from pre-made WotC material, that it really should be considered an optimization. Also, as I see it, a race optimization should be treated just like any other optimization, and linked to from Character Optimization. So, if you do not object, I will move it from being treated as a race, to make it treated as a CO. Let me know if this is okay. --Green Dragon 00:34, 1 January 2008 (MST)

Sure, I have no problem with that. Now that I know that you can use that for race and well as class optimizations, I may submit others as well, such as my Loth-touched Feral Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (LA: +2, ECL: 5, Str +18, Con + 14). Fear Willy . . . . -- S1Q3T3 18:32, 1 January 2008 (MST)

I have moved it. --Green Dragon 21:37, 7 January 2008 (MST)

I thought this race/build sounded interesting enough to try to calculate its ECL by using the Upper_Krust's Challenging Challenge Ratings v6 document. It ended up exactly the same as here (ECL 3; 2 HD and +1 LA).

The final ECL, though, was rounded up from 2.55. Ergo, according to UKCCRv6, this build only BARELY qualifies for that +1 LA. A dungeon master could probably let a player get away with 2 HD and no level adjustment without it severely impacting party balance -- or simply let the player "buy off" the level adjustment at "half-price", if he allows that rule from Unearthed Arcana.

However, in my original calculations I neglected to take into account equipment, which is something this race requires to be viable (unless someone were to add natural weapons or something).

2.55 (ECL) * 0.2 (factor for PC equip) = 0.51 + 2.55 = 3.06

As we can see, after giving him PC equipment, he finally fully qualifies as an ECL 3 race.

Just for fun, let's see what his CR would be if we were fighting one of these guys with NPC equipment...

2.55 * 0.125 = 0.31875 + 2.55 = 2.86875 * 0.67 (CR is 2/3rds ECL) = 1.9125

So a single enemy living maug with 3rd-level NPC weapon and armor would be CR 2. Interesting.

If we were to give him 3 fighter levels (also with NPC equipment)...

2.55 + 3 (each PC class adds exactly 1 ECL, not ironically) = 5.55 * 0.125 = 0.69375 + 5.55 = 6.24375 * 0.67 = 4.1625

So if you want to throw a group of 3rd-level fighter (or barbarian, or rogue, or...) living maugs at your players, each one's CR is already calculated for you. You just need to give each (consults NPC wealth chart) 5,200 gold worth of weapons, armor, treasure for the PCs to take, and possibly a few flasks of alchemist's fire and barrels of oil that act like a grease spell when tossed and broken at the player's feet (which is also highly flammable; this also limits the amount of treasure the players get after the fight, if that's a worry).

But I digress. That's enough off-topic rambling. As mentioned earlier in this discussion, this is a solid ECL 3 race, even though there are superior ECL 3 races to play with... unless they so happen to be truly ECL 4 or higher builds according to UKCCRv6. If anyone else wants to calculate a "Fear Willy" race, by all means....

--Anonymous 03:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC)