Talk:Kpinga (3.5e Equipment)

Balance

look over the stats on this. d8 light weapon 18-20 crit is already exotic. adding thrown isn't too bad. The other 2 abilities should be feats of their own. like ranged trip, or how the shield feat shield from Phb2 work. and the ricochet throw sounds like the feat boomerang ricochet. i'd say make it a d8 18-20x2 one handed weapon, throwable, +2 trip and make the other 2 feats.

and yes I saw the "episode of that show whose name I'm not advertizing that pits 2 fighters against each other". those guys took mad feats to be awesome.--Name Violation 19:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

As shown on "show whose name I'm not advertising that pits two warriors against each other", the Kpinga was imbalanced. You could kill someone instantly with the handle, embed it in a bone when you threw it, and it could go around a shield. Since ricocheting is more balanced than "your shield offers no defense," that's what I went with.

and by your logic, does this mean that Bolas should need a second feat to use properly? I understand that my weapon is WAY more powerful than a set of Bolas, but still. Ranged Tripping isn't a new idea. Granted, my weapon hits really freaking hard, but really, it's an exotic weapon for a reason. -- PokeDM 19:30, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

and you kill someone by dropping a brick 10 ft, but in dnd thats like a d6. RL damage is far different than DnD damage. but anyway bolas don't deal awesome damage.

mainly its the attack 2 people that OP. That should be a seperate thing, otherwise this is the only thrown weapon worth having for a fighter. --Name Violation 19:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

not true. Ever heard of the Halfling Skiprock? Does the same two-people thing. This isn't meant to be for a full-armor, shield-bearing, sword-slinging warrior. This is the kind of thing you'd find in like a Goblin Tribe or something. Nobody knows how to design these things. PokeDM 23:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

So, there you go. New Rule: Rare Weaponry. PokeDM 23:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

My point is this does what 3 different weapons do. its a elven blade/bolas/skiprock/wtf else you want it to do. its a great example of the x are underpowered meme (katana's are underpowered, lightsabers are underpowered, claymores are underpowered, see http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20 for even better examples). you're basically wanting a swiss army knife weapon.--Name Violation 00:28, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Elven blade? Which one? What I saw here was a bolas/skiprock/kama combo. Just because it gives you different options doesn't make it imbalanced. It just makes for a really cool weapon. Although, admittedly, the high damage and the scary crit was a bit too much. I'm torn, should I lower the damage to 1d6 and keep the crit or change the crit and keep the die type? I'm staying adamant about the special abilities. PokeDM 21:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow, yes, the rarity doesn't make up for the fact that this thing is overpowered. Trip weapon is a function of the design of the weapon. A ranged trip weapon is also a function of the design of the weapon. But being able to hit two people with one attack? The design might make offer the opportunity, but it's your skill (a feat) that makes it possible.

You are worried about making this thing match it's real-life counterpart -- I'm guessing the people who use(d) this in real life have had training with it, and they must train (earn a feat) to be able to hit two people in one attack. If someone who has training in swordplay picked this weapon up, they would be able to trip people with it, but not hit two people with one.

I can't speak for the halfling skiprock (because I'm not sure what book it's from and can't look it up), but seeing as how it has a race in the name, I'm guessing it's also something that requires some sort of training. And heck, if it's from a splatbook, who's to say it's not also overpowered? JazzMan 21:43, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Halfling Skiprock was designed to ricochet off of enemies. If anyone was proficient with it (anyone, not just an angry Hobbit) they could either just throw it at someone and smack them in the face, or they could bounce them off an opponent and hit another opponent, taking the same penalties as shown to what the Kpinga can do. It's in the Arms and Equipment Guide if you want to look it up. PokeDM 00:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, concerning the Kpinga, this thing was designed to bounce off of someone. It hooked onto a shield, one of the barbs turned it, and it flew and hit another guy. The shape could trip someone's legs out from underneath them, at a long range and a short range. PokeDM 00:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is, it's designed to be an overpowered, bad-ass weapon. PokeDM 00:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

And it's EXOTIC because of that. If someone trained in swordplay picked it up, they wouldn't be able to use it right at all. It's an awkward sickle-with-a-pickle if you're not trained with it. PokeDM 00:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

the elven weapon i spoke of is in CW its a 1 handed finessable d8 18-20x2 weapon. This is a light weapon dealing a d8 and criting on 18. thats uber on its own. it should probably a d6. also, look in Sandstorm, they have a weapon that looks almost exactly like this and isn't near as OP. calling it "rare" dosent make this not horribly OP. a lot of exotic weapons have an extra feat to do something awesome. You wanna compair this to a skip rock? i don't think a skip rock is doin a d8 and criting on 18. this blows everything you compair it to outta the water. yes, IRL this may be a brutal weapon, but for the sake of a GAME you have to maintain game balance. this is over the standard balance, by a lot. No 1 weapon should be this good via game play mechanics as a balance issue. we aren't yelling "kill it with fire" we're just saying tone it down a notch and add a feat or 2 for truely epicness.--Name Violation 01:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... How about I lower the crit range and lower the die-type? Really, the only serious balance issue was that combined with the other abilities. In my opinion, tripping is tripping at a long range and a short range, so I can't really see the problem there. As for the HSR, that did about 1d6 points of damage with a normal x2 modifier for medium-sized characters. PokeDM 01:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Nerfing the damage is a great start. the main problem is really its 3 exotic weapons in 1 right now. its bolas, skip rock, and uber crit thing. you should really pick 1 special ability or the other and make the other a feat.--Name Violation 02:02, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Only problem is, that's what makes a Kpinga a Kpinga, for lack of a better term. The trips and the ricochets are what make the weapon so unique. I'll lower the uber-crit and damage, for sure, but I really want the abilities to stay... PokeDM 02:49, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

*Cough cough* Feats *cough cough* ;-) JazzMan 02:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

feats. feats. feats feats feats feats feats. feats. feats. feats feats feats feats feats. feats. feats. feats feats feats feats feats. feats. feats. feats feats feats feats feats. feats. feats. feats feats feats feats feats. feats. feats. feats feats feats feats feats.. noticing a pattern here? --Name Violation 03:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am. Noticing and applying are two different things, unfortunately. Look, the Kpinga's shape is what gives it the ricochet and basically all the other abilities. Would you like me to start explaining the concept of angular momentum, or can we drop it and leave this as is? PokeDM 14:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

sorry to burst your bubble, but RL physics dont exactly line up in DnD, so angular momentum is moot and that argument has been had to death in the past. you Its not a RL simulator. Lemme ask this given the option between this, a Skip rock and a bola, why wouldn't you take this weapon? it seem like this is obviously better than the others, and anything obviously better is normally overpowered--Name Violation 17:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Look, guys, clearly this discussion is going nowhere. Sure a kpinga's shape is what gives it the ability to ricochet, but you have to know how to use it properly. Here's a suggestion: a single scaling feat: Weapon Mastery (Kpinga). Flavorwise, it means the more you use this weapon, the better you get with it. No one can pick up a Kpinga and know how to use it as described on the page a day later. If you want to get real, let's get real. You have to be trained, and that sort of training takes years, not hours, I don't care how the weapon is shaped. Because this is a scaling feat, you don't have to burn valuable feats to get full use of the weapon, but because it is scaling you don't get it all at once. It scales with your HD as listed below (rough draft, open to changes):

1 HD: You gain proficiency with the Kpinga

5 HD: You may use a Kpinga to make a trip attack. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you may drop the Kpinga to avoid being tripped.

10 HD: You may use a kpinga to make a ranged trip attack. You cannot be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a Kpinga in this way.

15 HD: If a Kpinga hits its target, it ricochets towards another target of the thrower's choice (within five feet). The thrower makes a second attack roll for the Kpinga against the new target, with an attack bonus equal to the first roll -2. This is purely optional.

Thoughts? I know a level 15 character can pick one up with this feat for the first time and be a champion, but at level 15 I can fly and turn invisible at will. --Badger 19:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

One feat's probably overpowered, but not as much as no feats. I like it. JazzMan 21:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that OP to me. A 1st-4th level character can't do anything special. 5th-9th can trip, which is no better than bolas. 10-14th can trip at a range (like bolas) but you're suddenly unarmed. That's gotta be inconvenient, especially if your +2 flaming Kpinga is now under a very angry ettin. At 15th level one extra hit at a -2 penalty is almost insignificant compared to what a wizard is doing. If anything this is making a fighter more relevant in high level combat. Also, if you throw your Kpinga you have to draw another one, and that means no full-round multiple attacks (unless you get quick draw). --Badger 22:06, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

It's also a light weapon so you can use two of them pretty easily. I guess when I think about it, it's more powerful compared to a PHB fighter (and even then, I'm not saying it's game-breaking or anything), but certainly not overpowered compared to to broader scheme of things (*cough cough* Tome of Battle). So to be perfectly clear (since I'm a fan of wishy-washy wording), I'm fully ok with the feat as presented. It's an elegant solution to the power problem. JazzMan 22:14, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

You reminded me. I googled Kpinga to see what it looked like (the description was not working for me). I would not call this a light weapon. At all. Take a look. --Badger 22:17, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

thats why i kept sayin 1 handed weapon. i still think it should be a total of 2 feats, but thats just me. lookin at boomerand ricochet, and the master thrower ability to do the same thing, it just seems right IMHO--Name Violation 22:54, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

How about we remove proficiency from the scaling feat, and make Exotic Wep Prof(Kpringa) a pre-req for Weapon Mastery (Kpringa)? --Badger 23:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The scaling feat is something I'd be more than happy to put in. That weapon in the picture is a more... family-friendly Kpinga. The one I saw was used by the Zande Warriors, and it literally had a bladed metal penis where that small spike would be.

If you want to see the one I'm talking about, go to the Spike TV website, go to "Deadliest Warrior." The episode is "Aztec Jaguar vs. Zande Warrior." The one shown in that episode matches up pretty closely with my description, and definitely helps get my point across. PokeDM 23:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The Feat is Up

So, now everyone can stop griping at me. PokeDM 03:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)