Talk:Kenseijin (3.5e Class)

Balance

lolwut? extra hit die is bad. really bad. over the top munchkin bad. --Name Violation 01:24, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Whoa yeah, either I'm misreading this, or at level 3 you have 9d10 hp (assuming you have 16 WIS). Also, your saves need to be normalized. 10/10/15 is not a normal progression, they must be either 6 or 12 at level 20. --Badger 02:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

So wait... at level 20 with 20 wisdom you would have 120d10 health? Huh, maybe my DM will let me play this class in my next adventure... :P --Vrail 04:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I added Template:Needsbalance. --Green Dragon 17:39, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

As is, the HD doesn't do that much for you if you go only with this class; it just prevents it from sucking more since all you get are bonus feats (I honestly cannot tell what the Sword Bearer does at all). It doesn't even really put it above a fighter, since even the fighter gets full BAB and more bonus feats. In, the end, this class by itself just grants HP, and that's it. It's dippable to a dangerous extreme (I can just imagine a cleric with a billion HD and persisted divine power), but it's not that big a deal if it can't be applied to other class levels. That being said, it's not really that good of an idea, either.

Also, way to rate your own class, man. Try to do it properly next time (because it only goes up to 5/5). - TG Cid 19:04, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Using feats for HP the fighter cannot attain this with any regard. Seems overpowered to me as such. --Green Dragon 19:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, you take a 1 level dip to get the exponential HD class ability and then never look back. Nothing specifies that it only works with Kenseijin levels. Also since we're discussing general balance, what does putting 90% of your XP into your sword do, other than slow down leveling? Also, you included several Epic level feats in the bonus feat list. Are you planning to let non-epic characters take epic level feats?--Badger 00:33, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Unless you plan to use something like the Rogue bonus feat trick (ignoring prereqs), you couldn't possibly take any Epic feats anyway. Since this class has to have the prereqs, the epic feats should be removed. More importantly, a fighter with more hp is still a fighter (i.e. not that good), especially when a DM with any brains would pit you against something that doesn't need to deal damage to shit on your face. It has the same weakness as every other class that has the potential for loads of hit points: it's one failed save away from being dead. Essentially, the high hit points are irrelevant, since the class is weak enough that no reasonably leveled opponent will bother with it anyway. Pit it against anything with good SLA's and this class is screwed. Overpowered? Not likely. - TG Cid 23:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok i understand what you guys are saying, but first of all, ITS NOT DONE...and second of all if you would read about them, you would understand why they have increased hitdie, THEY HAVE NO AC, and as for mr take a level of kenseijin so you can get EXP HD and never look back, you need to learn how to read...ive had the kill factor posted on that ability since i made this class...it only works with the Oath of Freedom ability...Thus if you break the oath you lose the ability aswell as the hitdie you gained from it...as well as an alignment change to Cn and DM intervention of causing your character to die...onces its done read it and tell me what you think

And FYI this is almost identical, but made less powered than a 3.0 Orient class so dont give me crap about it being OP their good but not that good...plus you have alot of restriction to actions, kinda like a pally Envoyof_aGod 21:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so here's the deal, "No armor" doesn't mean "no AC". Natural armor, Dex, Deflection, and other bonuses can get you to a pretty decent AC (nothing too astounding, but you can easily break 20 or so). As for the single level dip, nothing says you can't do that (unless I'm misinterpreting your rules). "Kenseijin are allowed to multiclass without penalty" is a direct quote, and as far as I can tell the only way to break the oath is to wear armor. Is Exponential Hit Dice only for levels of Kenseijin? I assume so, but nothing in your text clearly rules one way or the other. I think that is your problem. I take a single level of Kenseijin, then spend my next 19 levels playing around with other classes. I get all the benefits of Kenseijin as long as I don't wear armor, and I also get the benefits of my other classes (to boost saves, and combat functionality). That's where the OP comes into play. The class itself is pretty weak, but a single level of it is worth a ton when used with a 19 level progression of other classes. --Badger 22:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

hell a belt of the monk gives wisdom mod +1 to ac (its been brought up a bunch of times in the past), so no armor isnt a big deal. Bracers of armor also work, plus the things badger mentioned. Ac is easily pumpable, even with out min-maxing--Name Violation 22:39, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious to read the class you based this off. Was it also named Kenseijin? What book did it come from?--Badger 00:19, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

See you havent read anything about my class...you arnt allowed to use any magical items, or any items that would aid you in any way in battle, no healing, no belts with +1 wis, how do you gain natural armor if you have no magic and are restricted to human? it does state that EXP HD applies only to kenseijin. as i said my class isnt done, but i did alot of updates, the HD is now 8 im contemplating D6, as far as multi classing, sure if you want to use that blade alone, if you use something else you violate your code, you are sworn to preserve the balance of the world, not to roam around and savor your own self satisfaction, immagine a Neutral paladin and their role in the world, coupled with the Mindset of a monk, and the other restrictions, this class might beable to break a 30 AC if built properly at level 20...30 ac at 20 is pathetic...i changed their saves to mimic the monks you need to read the full class before you respond to this please, ive been working alot on this lately and everything your saying has been changed before you said it...i dont have alot of time to just work on this class...except for today, but look closely and think about what everythign means...they are a great class...but they level slow...they have so many restrictions are you really gonna say that they are too strong...they could easily get destroyed by a equal level caster if they were level 20...

Sorry bout that, i was just looking through it again...the comp at my work never saved the work i did the other day...thats why it was nt posted but it should be fixed now. Envoyof_aGod 02:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I did miss the update you made about no magical items, that was my mistake. I'll hold off on any more comments until you've totally finished the class, clearly it is still undergoing a lot of changes. I'm just curious, can a Kenseijin use potions, and oils? Can they receive the benefits of a scroll, wand, or ally's spell? Because those are also ways to pump up AC without using "magic items". --Badger 03:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Given everything that has transpired since the last time I looked at this, it seems like the Hit Die means even less now. In the end, I agree with Envoy of a God in that a caster will shit on this class, but increasing the amount of HD and taking away the ability to increase useful things like Armor Class and saves via magic items is sort of ridiculous an makes this class pretty unbalanced towards the underpowered side rather than vice versa. Sure hit points are good, but a good fighter build can still mess this guy up pretty bad, and any wizard with phantasmal killer or better can kill him in one round regardless of his wicked hit point total. My concern is that this class is lacking a way to do things other than swing a sword (and it doesn't even do that very well compared to even a fighter). Not only that, but by introducing the Oath of Freedom thing you are straight-jacketing people into a certain alignment and role, which is one of the central problems with the paladin IMO. I feel like it reduces the incentive to take this class since you have to constantly worry about what you're doing or risk losing class features (even though, honestly, there isn't really much to lose here). I just think that there aren't too many reasons to want to play a Kenseijin, which is a critical problem in and of itself. - TG Cid 01:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Ill give you that Cid, you have some valid points, but again its not, done, and if you understand the abilities of their sword as it progresses they can mess an equal level fighter up, Melee that is, mainly because they are a melee tank class, they arnt designed to go 1v1 they are designed to work in a group. also though this class is limited to a certain alignment and has restrictions, it is actually quite simple to play...all you have to do is draw a picture of a scale, put good on one side and evil on the other, whichever side droops the lowest when applied to your world, you player fights against. so if their is too much good they do evil and vice versa. Badger, they cannot use potions or oils that would be disqualified by their oath, if it can be used to help them in battle and trail it is not allowed. they can be buffed but tend not to. they can use tomes of Ability and things of that sort that arnt a constant use item. im working on balancing them a little bit...im probably going to work a few kinks out tomorrowEnvoyof_aGod 15:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things you need to address still (in my opinion):

1. You still have epic feats in the bonus feat list
2. Spell buffs sound like a loophole waiting to happen, you should work with that. I see a munchkin saying "We were about to fight a red dragon, of course we needed me to be buffed, otherwise we'd be toast. I didn't break my vow.
3. Is it "trail" or "trial"? There is a big difference, and you seem to use them both...
4. Why doesn't a Climber's kit count as an item that "would aid him in any way", thus breaking the vow?
5. I'm having a hard time thinking of a time when a climber's kit (or similar item) would be used outside of a trial. If you're climbing there is a reason for it, in my mind. The DM didn't just add the cliffs for ambiance (probably).
6. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you mean with this oathbound blade chart, namely the bonus feats. You can trade each bonus feat for a +1 on your weapon. This is on top of the +10 you can eventually get. I don't know, but that seems weird to me, potentially OP.
7. You have an astounding number of spelling/grammatical errors that you need to address, not to mention sentences that make no sense.

--Badger 05:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Well i understand your points and let me clear them up:

1. the reason epic feats are in the bonus feat list is because the kensei gain bonus feats at epic level and i felt it would be easier that way, you still have to have the prereqs to take a bonus feat so if you feel it should be seperated i can do that.

2. In that instance the player willingly accepted the buff, for 2 reasons, A. fighting a red dragon before your capable of doing so proves that they needed the buffs and asked for them, Vow Broken. B. if you were strongenough to fight a red then you wouldnt need the buffs, and got them, vow broken, trust me i want to remove the ability to have buffs, but some friends are trying to talk me out of it. so im still debating and like i said its being tested.

3. Its Trial as in Test not Trail as in Path, i will fix them when i go through for my final edit.

4. That restriction is being used out of context. its only not allowed if it will benifit them in battle or trial.

5. Well in my experience ive always found cliffs in ambience, and decided to climb them, they were never part of a test or in anyway battle related.

6. The Bonus feats from the weapon can only be exchanged for Enchantment slots not bonuses, I.E. Keen = +1, Vorpal = +5. thus 1 bonus feat couyld be sacrificed to gain keen on your blade or all 5 could be to gain vorpal, once they are all attained though, also the player has to decide when they get them whether to exchange them for a secondary, primary, or ench. they do not increase the Enchantment bonus given to their blades.

7. I know, i build then repair, its how i work, once the class is finished and proper, i will go though and to a major spelling, grammer, and formatting edit and then itll be golden.

If there is anything else please let me know.

On point 2: What if in that instance the Kenseijin didn't ask for the buff? What if the cleric just decided on his own to give him the buff? Does he get the benefits? Does he break his vow?

On point 4: You wouldn't consider climbing a cliff a trial? In my mind if it requires a check, it's a trial. Maybe that's just me. You should try to clarify that by better defining what "trial" means.

And point 6: Can I trade my first bonus feat for "keen", and then trade my second bonus feat and keen for "flaming burst", which is +2? Are the enchantments permanent, or can they be swapped around? Can I trade keen for flaming (both +1) every other day, or only at new levels?

--Badger 21:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Ill probably remove the spell buffs they are being an issue in the campaign as well, my friend have learned to shut up haha, as for the Climing kit, ill probably remove it aswell, i was just being nice, and as for the bonus feats, it doesnt work like that, if you spend a bonus feat on keen _+1 then you cannot exchange it, it is there, and at your second bonus feat you woul only have a +1 slot open, because as most things in dnd it doesnt stack. Envoyof_aGod 08:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)