Talk:Hiemalis (5e Class)

Okay everyone, this is my first try at creating a class myself. My rule of balancing is "When in doubt, reduce the power." That way, if a player comes up to a DM, they show that its not to powergame, but more for the flavour of the class. And the DM can then buff it as they see fit. However, what I and you see as balanced/weak might be different, so feel free to ask questions and make suggestions.

I will most likly not make more than one archetype, though if I get enough ideas that may change.

Hiemalis is latin and means "wintery, cold, stormy", and this fits my thinking behind it: a ice and lightning, weapon using mage with a summon. All that, to make my perfect class. By that I dont mean to make this class untouchable, but simply create the class that I would be happy to play, without any complaints concerning the class.

-- Celepito (talk)

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Questions and Stuff

Leave your questions here, so I can answer them.

Balancing discussions

Hi! In my opinion, this class could probably use playtesting to see if a d6 is too little. I have several suggestions on balance for this class, since in some ways it seems somewhat off-balance. The Gale ability, for example, is limited in an odd way. Perhaps instead of a limited use followed by a very expensive re-use, it should only use a small amount of energy, like 10, since energy is a valuable resource but can be easily acquired. So instead of "you can use this Int+1 times, then can later spend 50 energy", it should just be "you can use this by spending 10 energy".

Now, a big thing for this class is how powerful howling winds is. My friend and I came up with the idea that every round you maintain it, in addition to concentration, you could spend a small amount of energy, like 5. This way, you are encouraged to attack to maintain enough energy for howling winds. Alternatively, a limit such as Int modifier (minimum 1) times per SHORT rest might be good. Another thing about howling winds is its damage types. Instead of 1 damage from 4 damage types, perhaps let the user choose which damage to deal, and deal 1d4. The scaling can then be increasing the dice by one level up to 1d10, since the 4d6 gets way too powerful anyways. This also simplifies the usage of howling winds.

Another thing I noticed was fierce whirlwinds. Instead of how it works, perhaps change it so that whenever you deal one of its damage types, it ignores resistance ONLY, and doesn't affect immunity. Then, make it so it isn't limited usage. As is, it's too limited and works in an unusual way.

Eye of the storm is an interesting ability. It is powerful, as a 20th level ability should be, but it's not at all functional in an adventuring party. My friend and I came up with the following changes:

1) You control the radius of the storm

2) It should last one minute, since that makes more sense in a 5e context

3) You should choose whether to use gust or lightning

4) Gust, instead of heavily obscuring and creating difficult terrain, should work like lightning where you choose 6 foes. Each makes a CON save, and on a failed save, they are blinded and move at half speed for the round. These changes make the ability more usable in an adventuring context.

Finally, I think the Cyclone subclass could use some rewording and tweaks. It's too many bullet points and too complicated a feature; certain creatures just don't make sense. The most major change here is the wording and the fact that the companion must be a beast or elemental.

My idea for the rewording is this:

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Beginning at 3rd level, you gain a cyclone companion, a creature that takes the form of an animal but in a new, elemental way. Choose a beast or elemental of CR 1/2 or lower. If it is a beast, its creature type becomes elemental. It has the same alignment as you, and darkvision out to 60 ft. It understands your languages and primordial, but cannot speak normally. It can telepathically communicate with you, however. The companion shares your mental stats and mental state, needing to sleep as much as you and sharing your Exhaustion.

The companion acts in initiative immediately after your turn, which it will use to protect itself unless commanded otherwise by you as a free action. It can only make one attack on its turns (it is unable to use multiattack), and it is incapacitated wile outside of your Howling Winds. Instead of its proficiency bonus (+2), the companion uses your proficiency bonus. If your bonus is higher than +2, it will gain a bonus to its attack rolls in addition to saving throws and ability checks it's proficienct in. Its attacks, instead of doing their normal damage, deal cold, lightning, thunder, or bludgeoning damage. It can choose which at the end of a short rest.

If the companion dies, it reforms over the next long rest, just as it was before. It heals using its hit dice or by any normal healing magic or long rest.

Each long rest, you can choose a new elemental or beast form for your companion. The CR you can choose from increases to 1 at 5th level, 2 at 7th level, and 3 at 9th level.

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I also think Swept Up should deal the same damage as the companion's attacks, and should also grant the ability for the elemental to change its attack damage as a bonus action instead of a short rest.

Overall, this is a very well thought out class and concept, and I appreciate all the work that was put into it! Its main flaws are mostly just wording and the power of certain abilities. --Tegzi

So, I'll just respond in whatever order, sorry.

Eye of the Storm is really just storm of vengeance with a slight nerf (halved the duration, removed acid rain and hailstones), to account for the 'Control Weather' and for loosing the need for Con checks to maintain 'Howling Winds'. I could still change it further, of course, but I think getting a 9th level spell, plus the other benefits, is enough.

d6 hit dice is still warranted, I think. You get resistance against two common damage types (cold, lightning) via 'Superconductor', Evasion via 'Gale', melee enemies are next to no-issue since you quarter their movement ('Howling Winds' difficult terrain and 'Gale' each halving it), and technically speaking ranged enemies should have disadvantage against you due to the DMG rules for Strong Winds. Not to mention, two archetypes provide extra bodies on the field, which an enemy might target instead. That makes a whole lot of defensive options, and increasing the hit dice on top of all that just makes this class too safe, IMO. Since this is homebrew anyway, if a DM sees fit, they can just increase the hit dice themselves, which usually goes over better than swinging the nerf bat.

The way 'Gale' is usable is also part of that consideration. In essence, its the Rogues 'Evasion'. But that is a whole class ability of its own, and I give (a whole lot of) other things on top of that, so it needs to be more limited. Hence the uses per long rest. But I also like the thought of spending Energy to use it in an emergency. However, since the limited uses are there for a reason, the cost needs to be steep, hence the 50 Energy, equivalent to a 5th level spell. That way, the restriction isnt just ignorable. (Additionally, the previous review recommended reducing the power of the class with per rest abilities, so that would be a step back there as well. See the banner at the top of the class page.)

'Fierce Whirlwind' has the same reason for the restriction, to reduce power a bit. Additionally, ignoring Immunity is a big thing, but also one that I would like to keep. I dont actually mind that this is as limited as it is, because it is more or less just window dressing for the Wings you gain. Those are, again, a full class ability in other places. They are less important, since two other options for permanent flight exist with the class (the Companion and 'Find Greater Steed'), so adding stuff on top isnt an issue. Still, I dont want to make it too strong. And again, if a DM thinks its too weak, its still an easy fix.

Now, onto 'Howling Winds'. Damage wise, I flat out disagree. Its on the same level as the lowest scaling cantrips (e.g. acid splash). And if I were to put a limit on it, I would be putting a limit on more than half the class, due to how intertwined the abilities are with 'Howling Winds', and it being active. (There are a lot: 'Gale', 'Fast as Lightning', 'Reactive Reform', 'Tesla Coil', 'Weather Dynamo', half of 'Heightened Potential', the active part of 'Slipstream', and 'Maelstrom'.) Because of that, I think that the need to maintain concentration is already enough a limit. You kick a Hiemalis out of 'Howling Winds', suddenly half the class abilities dont work anymore. That is in addition to the fact, that 'Howling Winds' is one of the core things I want the class to do, so limiting it feels wrong. Its basically a souped up cantrip, akin to the Warlocks 'Eldritch Blast'.

Finally, the Cyclone Companion. Your general complaint of rewording the companion is extremely valid, and incapacitating instead of instantly dying is certainly the right way as well. However, your changes would basically do the thing I specifically wanted to avoid. Namely, turn it into a slightly different 'Ranger's Companion'. Specifically, being able to choose any creature, instead of just beast, is a big point. I think, however, that the best way to do this properly, is going the same direction as Tasha's Cauldron for the Beast Master Conclave Ranger, and just make it one to three stat blocks that you can pick from (my initial thought would be for all of them to be large, have a flight speed, and then differentiate into a melee and a ranged option. Maybe a tank one too). Let the actual appearance just be fluff. That way, I can drop a lot of the text of the ability. Of course, that text would then be at the end of the class description, to include the stat blocks, but that is whatever. It would certainly be easier to understand and balance, thats for sure, even though its more or less exactly the thing I wanted to avoid ._. (That would then also fix the issue with Swept Up, to a degree. I could also, in theory, integrate some of the abilities into the stat blocks, and then come up with new stuff in place of... basically all class abilities from the 'Living Storm' archetype.)

So yeah, hope that clears some stuff up. I'll see when I get around to making the changes, kinda not been in a DnD mood for a while, so this will almost certainly take a while.

--Celepito (talk) 05:22, 20 April 2022 (MDT)

I am unsure if I should increase the Hitdice from d6 to d8. Both the druid and the Warlock also get d8, while Sorcerer and Wizard have the d6. On one hand you need to use actual weapons, with the best possible damage in melee, which would advocate for the d8. On the other hand, you already get quite a lot of defensive tools (Howling Winds and its improvements, Fast as Lightning, Superconductor, Cyclone Companion and its improvements/Extra Speed). With that I think that the Hitdice should remain at the d6, but I would be happy to have outside opinions on this.

--Celepito (talk)

Hello there! I was taking a look at your class, and I think honestly its very interesting. I do have a few thoughts though. For one, I think that the class should get a d8 hit die. So far in the base classes, only full casters take a d6, and this class is for one not a full caster, and two, seems to be indended to be in the thick of the fight. And while howling wind could be quite a nice defensive ability, I don't think it would truly slow down enough enemies to make that jump in hit die viable.

I think another change this class could potentially use is the ability to apply the bonus damage to an existing weapon. So for example, if there is already some fun or nice weapon the character has, they could instead enhance it with ice, water and lighting for some bonus damage.

As much as I would like an extra attack, I admit I'm not sure if it needs it? I do think having a later one, like at 11th level could help with energy gain, but I'm unsure of the balance in that aspect.

- UmbralJester

For the hit dice situation, take a look at the top of the balancing discussion. For one, Howling Winds counts as difficult terrain for everyone else, meaning half speed, and then you half the remaining speed again at level 6+. Which means the enemy moves at 1/4 their normal speed. Practically speaking, your only problem will be ranged attacks of any kind. Then you have to remember that you have basically double HP if you go Living Strom, due to the summon. If you get more HP base-line, the issue only gets worse. And then you get two resistances against somewhat common damage types on top of all that, and I think the d6 should be the way to go, otherwise you might be too safe for a damage-centered class.

As for Stormy Weaponry, what I was thinking is that you only have simple weapons proficiency base-line. And the best weapons are martial. So the idea is that you summon a martial weapon to go around the proficiency restriction, which is why I dont really want to let it apply to already existing weapons, because why would you want to use "worse" weapons. At the same time, there should be no real issue with letting it apply, because of the same reason; the weapons you could use that part of the ability on would be weaker anyway, so why not.

Lastly, no extra attack, because that would double the damage. If you take a look at all the math above, a lot of the time doubeling the damage of your attack would push you beyond the average value. Since it would also add the extra energy, I can only describe it as too much. And I would need to throw out one of the existing abilities to make room for the extra attack ability.

--Celepito (talk) 12:11, 20 August 2019 (MDT)

Hmm, would it make it too powerful to allow weapons you use with stormy weapon to become finesse? For example, if you had a decent club you wanted to use, but your strength score was rather low. Then, you could enhance the club with stormy weaponry, causing it to become finesse as well as give it bonus damage. It doesn't seem like it's too much of a change, as it essentially gives a slightly better versatility. It's similar to the effect of shillelagh but with dexterity.

- UmbralJester again

While I wouldnt say it would be too strong, dexterity is already a really strong stat, and giving it even more power really isnt needed. There are already finesse weapons that you can summon, as well as the ranged weapons. If you can convince your DM to add it, go ahead, but I dont think it is needed. This way, to have the best damage you can get (Maul, Greatsword, Greataxe, Lance), you will need to sacrifice something else.

--Celepito (talk) 11:13, 20 September 2019 (MDT)

After some more thinking and some math, I have come to the conclusion that it would not make a difference at all, since this would also allow one to use ranged weapons with strenght. I have also realized that martial weapon proficiency should be fine as well.

--Celepito (talk) 05:53, 1 October 2019 (MDT)

A some of my thoughts regarding the recent balance changes:

I came up with them after a small burst of motivation at 1am local time, for what thats worth. In theory, I dont mind putting in restrictions for any abilities of this class, but I am also one of the people that wont use potions and the likes in videogames, because what if I need them MORE later!? Thats why I gave them Energy cost alternatives as well, because then I can trick my brain, and those of like-minded people, into actually using them at all, by still "having" them, just with a cost!  :)

• The Evasion part of Gale became a reaction and limited to 1 + Int modifier times per long rest, or activatable by spending 50 Energy.
• The amount of Energy is equal to nearly max load at the level you gain it at, and the equivalent to a 5th level spell slot, which I find more than reasonable as a balance point, considering you still need to have Howling Winds up. (Which is concentration and thus interruptible, at least until level 20.)
• The resistance ignore of Fierce Whirlwind became once per long rest, or by spending 100 Energy.
• Here too, the math would put this at the equivalent of a 10th level spell slot, if one would exist, more than e.g. a Wish, so again reasonable in my opinion. Technically speaking, this makes it usable twice per long rest, and once per short rest once you reach level 20. This is fine in my mind as well, since you use the Energy for spell casting, and using it "per short rest", so to speak, would lower your power in that area.
• I played around with the idea of making Howling Winds cost Energy equal to your Hiemalis level, but since I made quite a few features reliant on having HW up, I decided against it
• I didnt include more per rest limits to other features, e.g. to Howling Winds, Stormy Weaponry, or Fast as Lightning, for varied reasons.

• HW again, is too integral for the class in its current state to put in such a limit.
• SW is the main damage tool in my mind, and a restriction here would be like putting one on a fighters Extra Attack, so I decided against it.
• Leaving FaL is the most debatable one, as its entirely down to opinion and feeling, not reason. In my mind/the way I would use this class, would be more of a mobile hit-and-run kind of thing, and FaL is a big part in controlling your engagements. At the same time, its also a big part in the storm and wind theme, striking fast and all over the place like lightning, slipping through nets and traps like the wind. Its one of the first abilities I had in my head for this class, second only to SW, and as such is so integral as well in my thinking, that putting any further limits on it feels wrong.

• Cyclone Companion already has a limit of once per long rest.
• Swept up is more or less part of Stormy Weaponry and follows similar reasoning. As a nerf to it, I could remove the multiattack completely from Companions and say they can only make one attack per turn. However, I think all that would result in would be limiting the choices of companions to ones with power full single attacks, instead of actually reducing the power of this class and the archetype in any way. (And since Swept up scales with more attacks, removing the limit of two attacks would also be too much. With the current set-up, creatures with mutliattack dont get shafted when picking them, while also not going completely crazy with the bonus damage, leaving those with powerful single attacks only slightly weaker or on par with them, depending on the stats of the individual creatures obviously.)
• Storm Cell in general is already the weaker archetype, and gets hit by the limits to Gale and Fierce Whirlwind too, so I see no point in punching this part further down, at the moment at least.

--Celepito (talk) 18:15, 1 January 2022 (MST)

Also, I am unsure if I should keep the Cyclone Companions ability to change the damage type of its attacks. I think its sensible, that an elemental comprised of a storm would be able to inflict e.g. lightning damage as a basic attack, like how a Fire Elemental's touch attack deals fire damage. At the same time, its another thing one need to keep track of, and more of that is always bad. It is also another source of versatile power (going around resistances), so I really dont know what to do.

--Celepito (talk) 20:05, 1 January 2022 (MST)

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Overwiew for general balance:

This part is regarding the damage balance section from the Class design guide of this website.

The design guide only considers 1 turn usually, meaning set-up effects like spell related summons or Howling Winds are disregarded. Therefore, the "With set-up" damage number can be higher than the limit set. I only include them to see how much power is linked to Howling Winds, for comparisons sake.

Living Storm

Level 1:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 16 in Strenght: 2d6 +3 = average 10 damage (guide is at 13)

All out:

Thunderwave: 2d8 = average 9 damage (guide is at 13)

Level 5:

Standard and All Out (Spells do less single target damage):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Hippogriff summon: 1d10 +3 + 2d6 +3 = average 18,5 damage

Result: 33 average damage (guide is at 24 for standard, 54 for all out)

I see no way to resolve this above limit damage potential in a sensible matter. I could restrict multiattack until a later level, but a Giant Spider and her poison does 16.5 average damage in one attack, so I would need to restrict attacks with additional effects in some way as well. And while I already have a bunch of rules for the companion, trying to cover everything like that wouldnt work, as inevitably I would miss something, even if its just a monster from a book I am unaware of. Also, a Beastmaster Ranger can output more damage (2 Attacks with the Maul/Greatsword at 18 Strenght for 22 average + Giant Poisonous Snakes Bite for average 17 damage, resulting in 39 average), leading me to suspect that companions like this werent factored into the Design Guide properly.

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Hippogriff summon: 1d10 +3 + 2d6 +3 = average 18,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 39 average damage

Level 11:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged Alternative - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Result: 50.5 average damage (guide is at 48) [With Manticore at 41]

Same justification as at Level 5, and again, a Beastmaster Ranger does more (2x Greatsword/Maul with 20 Strenght for 24 average, plus two attacks by the Giant Poisonous Snake for 34 damage, resulting in a total of 58 average).

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 60.5 average damage [With Griffon at 55,5]

All out:

Lightning Bolt: 8d6 = average 28 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Result: 59.5 average damage (guide is at 80) [With Manticore at 50]

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Lightning Bolt: 8d6 = average 28 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 69.5 average damage [With Manticore at 60]

Level 17 and 20:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Result: 54 average damage (guide is at 53) [With Manticore at 44.5]

• Points at Beastmaster Ranger dealing more at level 11 already*

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 68 average damage [With Manticore at 58.5]

All out:

Lightning Arrow (Spell level 5): 10d8 = average 45 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Result: 76.5 average damage (guide is at 145) [With Manticore at 66]

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Lightning Arrow (Spell level 5): 10d8 = average 45 damage

Owlbear summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 1d6 = average 31.5 damage

[Ranged - Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 90.5 average damage [With Manticore at 80]

I would call balanced as can be in that department. The trade-off with this archertype would be possibly too strong continuous damage, though still less than a Beastmaster Ranger, with abysmal (in comparison) damage spikes. We are still below a level 11 fighter in terms of all out attack, not to mention the wizard. And its ignoring the opportunity cost of using an owlbear over a companion with a ranged option, a flying speed, or spell casting. But, do you all think that the balance is okay?

One of the bigger issues with this Archetype will most likely be the permanent flight at level 3, due to the summon (Giant Owl is CR 1/4). But the DM normally has to plan with the fly spell anyways. Maybe not at that level, but it helps the class a bit. It is also easy to homerule out, simply say "no flying speed", job done.

As for Spellcasting and Energy, you would need to do 790 damage, with only your own weapon attacks, to match a full caster. If we go with the average damage of 21, that would be ~38 attacks between rests. If we roll max damage on every attack, we are looking at ~24 attacks. Each representing a full round, since you dont get extra attacks, and the companion/spells dont generate energy. Hell, it has to be even more rounds than that, since you can only save up to 200 Energy, so you need to cast. And your highest spell is level 5. I think it should be good there. You can cast more freely than a Warlock, I guess, but the Warlock also gets the Mystic Arcanums and the Eldritch Invocations, so I would say it's fine on that front too.

-- Celepito (talk) 15:59, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

Storm Cell

Level 1:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 16 in Strenght: 2d6 +3 = average 10 damage (guide is at 13)

All out:

Thunderwave: 2d8 = average 9 damage (guide is at 13)

Level 5:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage (guide is at 24)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 20,5 average damage

Supercharged:

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage (guide is at 24)

Supercharged with set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 20,5 average damage

All out:

Thunderwave (Spell level 2) or Shatter while Supercharged: 5d8 = average 22,5 damage (guide is at 54)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Thunderwave (Spell level 2) or Shatter while Supercharged: 5d8 = average 22,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 28,5 average damage

Level 11:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage (guide is at 48)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage (guide is at 48)

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 29 average damage

Supercharged:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 28,5 damage (guide is at 48)

Supercharged with set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 28,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 15 damage

Result: 43,5 average damage

All out:

Lightning Arrow while Supercharged: 12d8 = average 54 damage (guide is at 80)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Lightning Arrow while Supercharged: 12d8 = average 54 damage

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage (no Tesla Coil after Casting, since Energy Level is too low)

Result: 64 average damage

Level 17 and 20:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage (guide is at 53)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 36,5 average damage

Supercharged:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage, times 1,5 rounded up with Tesla Coil for average 34 damage (guide is at 53)

Supercharged with set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage, times 1,5 rounded up with Tesla Coil for average 34 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 21 damage

Result: 55 average damage

All out:

Lightning Arrow while Supercharged: 14d8 = average 63 damage (guide is at 145)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Lightning Arrow while Supercharged: 14d8 = average 63 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage (no Tesla Coil after Casting, since Energy Level is too low)

Result: 77 average damage

This archetype can cast more, and stronger, though it loses some sustained damage. However, against groups of enemies this should be absolutely devastating, since Howling Winds gives you so much Energy, allowing for more casting and throwing out Tesla coils. Doing so needs you to be closer to the enemies though, as you want to have as many enemies as possible in the area. With Living Storm Howling Winds is simply a nice additional source of damage. I am really uncertain in the balance department here though, I can't properly judge AoEs balance wise. I would say it is balanced, since you need to get supercharged first, which needs at least two turns against one enemy. With the average encounter duration being between 4 and 7 turns IIRC, this should be fine? Tough once you are there, you can simply stay at that level... then again, to cast you would spend Energy again, losing the bonus ... but lots of encounters are more than one enemy... as I said I am uncertain here.

As for the spellcasting amount, you would still need to do 790 damage at level 20 to match a full caster. Weather Dynamo allows you to get there faster, but it still needs you to do damage, so we are good here, I would say?

-- Celepito (talk) 08:17, 3 May 2019 (MDT)

Bîaŵac

Before I get into any math, two things:

One, this is a Necromancer style archetype. A normal necromancy wizard with 'Animate Dead', could control 143 skeletons or zombies with only spellslots, and a Mummy Lord (CR 15, with an Intelligence of 11) indefinitly, plus any amount created through 'Finger of Death'. If we go with the basic assumptions of the Class Design Guide's Balance section (every attack made hits), that would mean it can output 715 damage per turn with the spellslot controlled skeletons alone. That is stupid, breaks any resemblance of balance and is more or less not feasible to maintain due to narrative reasons alone, as the DM should restrict your ability to create or use these minions, and you should be loosing some of them more or less every engagement, to AoEs at the very least. At level 20, this archetype would be able to control 292 skeletons or zombies, assuming 1 long rest per day (8 hours), and spending the rest of the day only short resting and casting two 5th level animate dead each time (50 Energy each, you can control 8 undead per cast, and you reset to 100 Energy on a rest). Again, that is just very silly. For that reason, I will work the math with two scenarios. The basic one will be the reasonable DM, where you can maintain ~60% of the limit set by Rising Storm in minions, and the permissive DM, where I assume a 100% maintenance for Rising Storm. Anything more just gets into non-comparable balance territory. And even then, those is still a decently large amount of individual creatures, that brings me to my second point.

It makes you play basically a different game, as that amount of entities on the field means each of your turns is going to take an incredibly long amount of time to resolve, which brings me to the pages 82, 250 and 274 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, the rules for Encounter Difficulty, Mob Combat and the Table for Defensive CRs. These will form the basic framework in which I will calculate the damage that the minions bring to the table, because, as said, the usual assumption makes the comparison useless. I will use the Encounter Difficulty tables hard column to determine the CR of a singular creature that closest meets that threshold, use the Defensive CR table to determine AC, and then apply the Mob Combat rules to that. (I have hidden the tables to avoid cluttering, you can see the stuff in the editing view.)

And I am going to use Skeletons, since they have the better damage and overall stats (the later is more opinion based though, obviously).

Level 1:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 16 in Strenght: 2d6 +3 = average 10 damage (guide is at 13)

All out:

Thunderwave: 2d8 = average 9 damage (guide is at 13)

Level 5:

Standard and All out (Spells do less single target damage):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage (guide is at 24 for Standard, 54 for All out)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy), Skeletons:

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

16 in Intelligence, 2 Skeleton to hit

-> Reasonable, 7 Skeletons: 1d6 + 2 = 5.5 x3 for average 16.5 damage | Permissive, 12 Skeletons: 6 x 5.5 = average 33 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 37 | 53.5 average damage

Level 11:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

I dont know if Dive Attack would apply to both attacks, or only one, my searches have been inconclusive on the matter. I have gone with one of the attacks, as that is the more reasonable one. Also, I have included the greater steed, as it doesnt have the same narrative preparations and constrictions the skeletons have.

Result: 42 average damage (guide is at 48) [51 if Dive Attack applies to both attacks]

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy), Skeletons:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

16 in Intelligence, 2 Skeleton to hit

-> Reasonable, 7 Skeletons: 1d6 + 2 = 5.5 x3 for average 16.5 damage | Permissive, 12 Skeletons: 6 x 5.5 = average 33 damage

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 68.5 | 85 average damage

All out:

Lightning Bolt: 8d6 = average 28 damage

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

Result: 51 average damage (guide is at 80)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy), Skeletons:

Lightning Bolt: 8d6 = average 28 damage

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

16 in Intelligence, 2 Skeleton to hit

-> Reasonable, 7 Skeletons: 1d6 + 2 = 5.5 x3 for average 16.5 damage | Permissive, 12 Skeletons: 5.5 x 6 = average 33 damage

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 77.5 | 94 average damage

Level 17 and 20:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

Result: 45,5 average damage (guide is at 53)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy), Skeletons:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

20 in Intelligence, 3 Skeleton to hit (Permissive gains an additional skeleton for rounder math, could be assumed the result of a Finger of Death)

-> Reasonable, 12 Skeletons: 1d6 + 2 = 5.5 x4 for average 22 damage | Permissive, 20 (+1) Skeletons: 5.5 x 7 = average 38.5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 81.5 | 98 average damage

All out:

Finger of Death: 7d8 + 30 = average 61.5 damage

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

Result: 84.5 average damage (guide is at 145)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy), Skeletons:

Finger of Death: 7d8 + 30 = average 61.5 damage | Storm Surge: + 3d6 for each Skeleton attack and one of the Perytons attacks -> 3d6 = 10.5 x 8 = 84

Peryton (Find Greater Steed), 2 attacks: 1d8 +3 + 2d8 + 1d6 +3 = average 23 damage

20 in Intelligence, 3 Skeleton to hit (Permissive gains an additional skeleton for rounder math, could be assumed the result of a Finger of Death)

-> Reasonable, 12 Skeletons: 1d6 + 2 = 5.5 x4 for average 22 damage | Permissive, 20 (+1) Skeletons: 5.5 x 7 = average 38.5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 106.5 | 145 average damage [LMAO, 145 on the mark unintentional, wonderful]

As you can see, some of the numbers are quite a bit above the limits set by the Class Design Guide, if you factor in the summons. The only defense for that I have, is that the CDG completely ignores set-up stuff like the summons here, or even just Howling Wind. Because if it didnt, then the most damage for the All Out column would be a Necromancer wizard at 17 and 20, since even just a Ghoul deals more extra damage (9 damage with its bite) than the Evocation schools Empowered Evocation (which is only a +5) and would need no extra expenses to maintain, as it would be permanently controlled with 'Command Undead'. Not to mention the technically infinite damage that a wizard with Finger of Death has. That also means technically speaking I should probably only count the direct weapon attack or spell cast for both this Archetype and Living Storm, and everything else I have listed is ignorable. Take that for what you will, I await your judgement. I doubt there is going to be a proper conclusion to this, since its really a discussion on the rules for the Design Guide, which is rather pointless to go through on a random class' discussion page, IMO.

--Celepito (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2022 (MST)