Talk:Hidden Blade (5e Equipment)
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The Advantage and the 4d4 damage makes sense, considering the origin of the weapon is from the "Assassin's Creed" franchise. Considering it's ON the arm (Advantage on Sleight of Hand), it's harder to see and detect normally. So if one attempts to get an attack in while it's hidden, no one's expecting it (Advantage on Attack) and it allows you a chance to hit a vital point, if not at least heavily wound the target (4d4). Of course, these properties are WHILE the weapon itself is Hidden. Typically once it's been used people know you have a weapon on you, the bonuses are gone and it's dealing 1d4.
As for the "Bonus Action," it makes sense. If you're using a 1-handed weapon as you could get an extra hit in with the arm the Hidden Blade is on because, as mentioned before, it's ON the Arm and not held as a traditional weapon.
As for the other "Bonuses," those need to be added on to begin with, granting different options to suit the one who has one. They're not already on the weapon itself, they need to be added on. Nightmares are dreams too... (talk)
- Dealing extra damage after being hidden is a function of the wielder's talents, it's not inherent to the weapon itself. Just because you can sneak attack with a dagger doesn't mean that everyone who wields a dagger gets Sneak Attack. Also, phantom blades doesn't reveal you, and I can have one of these on each hand. Maybe It's not supposed to work with phantom blade, it's unclear in its terminology, we've got "normal attack" as a bonus action, and "normal range attack" for the phantom blade, and all kinds.
- If I can make an attack as a bonus action because the weapon is on my arm, why can't I make an unarmed attack with my arm as a bonus action? (Again, this is a function of class features, Martial Arts for example)
- The cost of upgrading the blade is trivial. Assume that character will have all these upgrades by 5-10th level.
- I don't even know what's going on with "knife blade", it's gibberish.
- If I wield one in each hand, Arm Guard gives me +2 AC and allows me to do two-weapon fighting.
- And so on. Marasmusine (talk) 16:19, 21 February 2017 (MST)
- I have some fixes to propose, but I don't have time tonight. Marasmusine (talk) 16:30, 21 February 2017 (MST)
Translation of features, if you will. The point of the weapon is to deal a stealthy, heavy if not fatal stab to its foes. If the Stealth attack on a target with the Advanatge Roll is a Natural 20, there's the possibility that the Critical Damage of 2d4 if we go with the normal die, a character's DEX stat is on average 15 (+2); the damage tops at 4-8 damage. Enough to take out a Commoner. But if we're up against say a Guard, then you wound them. But they still live and alert the base to the party.
On top of that, it's about damage. If a Rouge has a Rapier sword, they're more inclined to use the d8 damage as a whole, and ifconditions permitting of the added Sneak Attack bonus, as even on a critical that would be 2d8 and 2d6 at 1st level. Assuming that the Rouge's DEX is at least +2, the damage is ranging from 6-30 damage. Using the Hidden Blade's base damage, which is a Dagger, it's 6-22 damage. Yes, the minimum is the same but more often than not the maximum damage dealt can mean taking a sentry out silently, or wounding them and they alert the others of intruders. At most, the increase 4d4 on a Sneak Attack puts the Hidden Blade on the same level as the Rapier.
As for the Arm Guard, it is equivalent to having a Shield by having 2 Hidden Blades with the Arm Guards. Considering Stealth is the Hidden Blade's best weapon, a Rouge putting Heavy Arm Guards without the Heavy Armor Proficiency would result in losing Stealth Advantage, borderline even getting Disadvantage on all STR and DEX checks. Even if the Retractable Fins help mobility, with that Disadvantage to the checks a Rouge wouldn't find use for it unless/until they get the Proficiency in Heavy Armor. On the inverse, Light Arm Guards would help a Rouge be able to avoid a bit more damage. Studded Leather with a +2 DEX bonus would put a Rouge's AC at 14. Bumping it to 16 would be a bit more beneficial, as that means they have the possibility of avoiding more damage. 9/10 times, a person would want to be avoiding and taking less damage. It adds a bit of options for those classes that don't have Shield Proficiency, as well as groups that don't have someone helping them with healing and/or buffs.
The Bonus Attack part, in hindsight, has to stem from Ezio's multi-kill chain from "Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood," where he's able to chain kills using a 1-handed sword and the Hidden Gun. Maybe there could be a restriction on that. Maybe add that as a special to the Gun option?
Huh. In all my time of looking at the page, I somehow COMPLETELY missed the Knife Blade attachment. I'll agree, the wording does seem off on that part. If I had to interpret, the wording seems like the Knife Blade attachment makes the weapon easier to grip, like a normal dagger. Using Hidden Blade with the attachment allows full benefits of the Dual Wielding feature without hindrance, if applicable. Nightmares are dreams too... (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2017 (MST)
- Again, Ezio's "mult-kill chain" is a function of his own skill (Extra Attack?) rather than inherent to the weapon.
- Okay, here are my first set of suggestions.
- First of all, are you sure this is a light weapon: are you supposed to be able to use one in each hand?
- Fully upgraded, this is a dagger, with a mechanism for retracting it, and a plate of metal that acts a small shield, and a black powder pistol, and a metal hook, and another blade, and a crossbow, and a vial of poison, and a bunch more blades.
- Please don't tell me that all this weighs 3 lbs or lighter.
- I recommend removing the light property, so that it's vaguely believable, and avoids some of the stacking.
- Second, use the partial armor variant rule for the arm guard. The arm guard should not give you +1 AC if you are already wearing armor that protects your arm anyway (can you even use this weapon if you're wearing plate armor?)
- Third, the hook blade, what is this "disadvantage when climbing vertical walls"? You can normally just climb at half speed. If it's a difficult climb, you make an Athletics check against a DC.
- Skipping ahead, if adding fins to a weapon starts dealing damage to creatures that miss you (apparently regardless of their reach), why don't all weapons have fins? There needs to be a tradeoff. Maybe limit this to creatures you are in a grapple with. Marasmusine (talk) 10:50, 22 February 2017 (MST)
- Using two Hidden Blades is a thing though Lore-wise, only High-ranking Assassins could utilize them due to the skill needed as well as the lack of materials to outfit ALL Assassins with them.
- There is bit of restrictions. For one the "Main Blade" (often the Left arm) has at least by Ezio's lifetime end, had the Bracer (natural to the weapon; though was most likely added for gameplay reasons of "The weapon could now be used for blocking" as opposed to Altair's non-usable-but-VERY-visible Bracer, apparently. I digress.), the Blade itself, the Gun (upgraded to fire the more powerful but loud bullets, or silent Poison darts as an alternate ammo.), and a Poison Blade (a needle that injected poison directly to the victim). The Hookblade seems more fit for the Right arm exclusively (at least in the games) to increase mobility yet still function normally. I take it that at least 2's interpretation of armor was the basis for the Arm Guard, as one was not provided for the Right arm and would require a specific purchase of a Vambrace to give it armor. So looking at this individually...
- Arm Guard- The typical Main Hand already has an Arm Guard built in meant for deflecting attacks. Though in this case, the weapon in D&D terms could be starting like Altair where it's necessary TO equip the main hand with an Arm Guard. At least in Creed II and onward, one would NEED to outfit the right arm with an Arm Guard for the added defense. As the Guard is mostly meant for the top part of the arm, it seems reasonable that this upgrade won't affect any other upgrades.
- Hidden Gun- Once more, a typical restriction to higher-ranking Assassins, it's biggest advantage is range and power, but at the cost of once fired ALL Stealth is lost. Only one is outfitted per Assassin, mostly for Rank and Materials, but other upgrades would get in the way if not outright replace the ranged option.
- Hook Blade- Seen more as an "Extension", it doesn't interfere with standard operation of the regular Blade. The Hook has it's usage for Mobility, adding a bit more options for getting from place to place and making it easier to get there. However due to the design, it takes up space needed for attachments like the Hidden Gun/Phantom Blade, and was typically worn on the right Blade.
- Knife Blade- An advancement made around the American Revolution, it modifies the weapon to extend out farther and allowing the user to pivot part of the blade to act as a small dagger. Due to the increased use of firearms during the era, the Hidden Gun wasn't needed anymore due to the open firearm availability. Perhaps due to this the weapon is allowed more space for the extension needed for the Pivot blade, as the mechanism is reinforced to a point it won't break even when hit by an axe. It would make sense that upgrades like the Hook Blade, Phantom Blade, and Hidden Gun can't be added to the mechanism of the Pivot Blade.
- Phantom Blade- It's an entire revamp of the weapon used by the French. The Crossbow is big enough to keep standard Blade usage, but cannot have other upgrades like the Gun (the phantom blade is a projectile itself, and silent too), Knife (the knife needs more space for the pivot mechanism and durability,) or Hook (the actual hook would get in the way of the Phantom Blade's barrel). An identical upgrade, the Hidden Bolt, actually uses standard crossbow ammo while maintaining stealth. But due to the size of the Bolt, it's not going to be as effective.
- Poison Vial- This is a bit two-fold. The concept seems based more for Arno's Phantom Blade, but it's slightly confusing as Ezio also had the ability to poison foes both close AND far. Ezio got a smaller Poison Blade (a needle-like blade off to the side of the main Blade) that allowed him to administer a dose of poison. Eventually, thanks to Leonardo da Vici, the Gun was upgraded to fire Poison Darts, allowing Ezio to administer poison from a distance yet doesn't make noise.
- (Retractable) Scalloped Fins- I haven't gotten Unity or Rouge, so I don't know where this comes from, if it's even applicable to the Assassin's Creed franchise. Seems like it was made as an attempt to allow for a sort of counter-attack?
In terms of weight, the bigger upgrades Ezio had was mostly the Bracer, Blade, Gun, and Poison Blade on a single arm. The upgrade of firing Poison was a modification to the Gun (technically, the ammo itself) so if I'd wager, most of the weight would probably stem from the Bracer itself (depending on the Armor Class if that stays) while the Gun, at most, would add 1/2 lb.-1 lb. Even then, the metal used for the Left Bracer is usually enough to deflect blows while the Right is what adds to Ezio's armor.
- No probs. I note you wrote "Lore-wise, only High-ranking Assassins could utilize them due to the skill needed", which goes back to what I was saying about some weapon features being related to class rather than inherent to the weapon. Well, I'll sit on this for a bit and revisit it later. Marasmusine (talk) 14:33, 22 February 2017 (MST)
- I did a bit or re-reading, and the use of two Hidden Blades was mostly a lack of materials around Altair's time of the 13th Century. By the 17th Century, along with structural redesigns, having two Hidden Blades was more commonplace, and some features omitted in later releases of the series in favor of making them a "Natural part of gameplay." In D&D, Maybe each Hidden Blade upgrade can have a specific "Slot" to have the upgrade, and upgrades can be restricted in who can have access to the upgrades through specific proficiencies (needing Poisoner's Kit proficiency needed for the Poison upgrade as example) and classes. Nightmares are dreams too... (talk) 15:34, 22 February 2017 (MST)
I don't mean to be rude, but: how on earth is this a simple weapon??? I get that it needs to match the rogue's proficiency, but something this complex seems like it would require a dip into the Exotic Weapons feat to justify- especially since it's so specialized that "only High-ranking Assassins could utilize them due to the skill needed as well as the lack of materials to outfit ALL Assassins with them." Thewordywarlock (talk) 02:30, 21 June 2018 (MDT)