Talk:Gore (4e Feat)

Balance?

An at-will that is accurate (+2 to hit), deals normal damage, and knocks most low level monsters prone? Seems pretty ok to me. Oh yeah, and it is a melee basic attack so you can use it with AoOs. Does getting up from prone provoke AoOs? Because if it does, this definitely crosses the border of overpowered for a 1st level feat. --Aarnott 14:46, 15 April 2009 (MDT)

Standing does not provoke OAs. Also remember this is a "power swap" feat so the Player must lose one it's "At-Will" attack powers, and a Feat, to gain it (so it kinda earns the need to have some decent power). Being effective only at Melee range, it has little to no use for Ranged classes or builds. Also given its limited damage expression, that can be easily outdone by most melee class "At-Will" powers of higher then 5th level (the die value increases, while most powers give multiple weapon damage), and the fact that knocking Prone is not that uncommon for many melee attack powers, it comes in well balanced as a "Racial Feat". Given it is meant to add a signature "Satyr" touch to a character that they would keep and use through most if not all of their careers again it works very well, I would expect every Player running a close combat oriented Satyr character to at least consider (if not outright drool for) this Feat. As far as being usable as a "Basic Melee" attack, well again for most melee based characters above 5th level a good magical weapon will probably do better. Still I see what you mean about allowing the ability to knock Prone every round may be a bit much, (sometimes I get annoyed when the Satyr Barbarian uses it twice in a round, but it stills seems far from unbalanced) but I wonder if it is too underpowered to be an Encounter (unless maybe if it recharges when the character is Bloodied?). Tell me what you think.--Sepsis 18:51, 15 April 2009 (MDT)

The way I see it, knocking prone is the only part of this power that is actually tipping the scale. As an encounter power seems right -- maybe adding the recharge. Compare to the fighter 1 encounter power that knocks an enemy prone. On that note, as written, this would be too good for fighters. At level 3, they could use a spinning strike to mark a bunch of enemies and when any of them tries to move away, he would get dex + wisdom + 2 vs. AC to knock them prone. So they have no choice but to be stuck there and attack him. This power is just so much better than 1st level fighter at wills. --Aarnott 22:42, 15 April 2009 (MDT)

But truely Racial Feats should be better then then standard class powers (so far all official ones are), their requirements call for them to be available to the few, and as a power-swap feat it deserves yet another boost in power. And with standard powers most low-level ones will be retrained or "lost" once the PC reaches a certain level, this one is with the PC until the end, so while great at Heroic levels, it loses punch at Paragon, and becomes cute (at best) at Epic levels. Also you may be assuming a bit much by thinking a 1st level fighter would swap out one of his at-wills to take this, other feats may be more useful to them at that level, or if they do take it, they forgo a feat and still need to swap out with one of their powers. Yes the above combo would be devestaing, but that is the idea of working your powers together (a Satyr fighters advantage here is that he fights best close up, and so yes he is trying to keep his enemies near, smart monsters are wary of those famous horns and if they favor ranged attacks stay away in the first place...unless the Sartyr works to close that distance). Please playtest this abilty as written a few times (I did over 16 times, and I've had 2 players use Satyr characters into Epic levels and have yet to run into any balance problems), you may find it dosen't quite cause the issues you fear. Still I find your points very valid, at one time I feared the same thing and added the caviat that only when used as part of a charge would it knock the enemy prone, but this tended to render the power pointless, and none could justify the sheer cost of gaining the power for such a limited effect and I had to agree. Also consider being Prone the individual gains +2 to defenses against ranged attacks, takes a -2 to attacks, and grants combat advantage. All in all an inconvience, not a crippling effect (dazed is worse and that shows up in several powers at Heroic levels). Lastly I do want to get feedback from playtesting that you do, but I'm looking for real balance issues. I do not want to nerf this feat just because it can be used smartly by a thinking player. I would change it if it so altered every encounter it was used in to easily allow victory. So often this power never comes into play, and while it sees its most use in the first 5 levels, after that other powers begin to overshadow it causing it to be used less and less (except as the occasional "flavor" attack). Now I have been thinking of this; what if the Player could only knock prone their Wisdom modifier in enemies per encounter with this power? It limits the prone effect, but still allows the basic melee attack and limited damage range. I'm planning on playtesting that over the next day or so and see how it plays. I still like the power as written, but you have once again made me question its balance and power level. By comparison it seems balanced, and as I said I have yet to see it throw any major wrenches in the cogs, but there is still that scent of something could go wrong. So again if you would please playtest this as written (or maybe even with the other changes I mentioned) and give me some feedback from the actual tests that would help the most. I can't tell you how many times perception will differ from reality. And thank you for your time and input, it really is helpful. -- Sepsis 06:42, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Paragraphs, please :) -- I have trouble reading a big block of text.

Anyways... I will try to playtest this in the various ways you have suggested when I get a chance. My group plays 4th ed like a mini game right now (a few fun skirmishes here an there, no real roleplay). It is actually a very well defined system for that sort of thing. My opinion is that if something is broken at any point during a character's career, it is unbalanced. Even if it becomes bad later on. So yeah -- I'll get back to you once I have tested this out. --Aarnott 09:59, 16 April 2009 (MDT)

Thank you...and I'll watch those paragraphs. Also a quick pointer remeber not to stack bonus types (a PC cannot get Combat Advantage from both Marking and this power, it must be one or the other) -- Sepsis 13:40, 16 April 2009 (MDT)