Talk:Gender Switch (3.5e Spell)

Deletion

I don't understand why this is up for deletion. This spell is very Gygaxian (if that is a word). The optional rule is funny, in my opinion, but perhaps a bit inappropriate. However, he did (try to) add the adult content breadcrumb. I'll add the adult content template for him, if that's going to be an issue. It's an April Fool's spell. Most importantly, I am also confused as to what makes this spell "unbalanced". It creates no negative mechanical effect on the players. Are you saying that this spell should be a lower spell level? I would call this a 3rd or 4th level spell; so yeah, I guess it's unbalanced. What's with the link to permanency? How does that apply at all? --Badger 01:18, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

Well this spell has a permanent effect for no XP penalty, which is inherently unbalanced. The permanent effect has an effect, especially a role playing effect. For example everyone the player knows will, after this spell, treat him or her differently. Maybe if it was an illusion spell with the same effects for a certain period of time it would work as is. It's inappropriate because the optional rule is not civil. After a bit of work, however, the template can be switched to another of course. --Green Dragon 13:05, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

There are many spells that have permanent effects without an XP cost. Moreover, the effect is exclusively role-playing (which means it can be totally ignored, and might be at some tables). While I could make a list of a dozen spells, instead I'll just link to Polymorph any object. Gender switch is essentially a very specific version of that one. Polymorph has no XP penalty, is permanent if you are only changing gender, takes a single round to cast, is also a transmutation spell, allows the same save, and has no expensive material components. If a caster can turn a man into a cow, I would assume he would also be capable of changing a woman into a man. --Badger 13:55, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

It has a duration though. --Green Dragon 13:59, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

However, if you read the entire page, you'll learn that the duration is permanent if you are only changing gender. --Badger 14:09, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

I'm looking at a 9 Duration Factor, not a 9+. Unless you find that "Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.)" should apply. I think not. Male is not to female as female is not to male. Male is to human as female is to human. Dunno. --Green Dragon 14:16, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

Same Kingdom (+5), same Class (+2), same size (+2), same Intelligence (+2). We're already at 11. "Related" doesn't even matter. Furthermore, 9+ (likely) means all values equal to or greater than 9. --Badger 14:20, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

Oh right, I didn't think about that last one when I said that. I changed the template to reflect. --Green Dragon 14:22, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

This seems like an ultra-restricted version of that spell. I would argue that you could easily get away with calling this a level 6 spell. Probably lower, considering it can be easily reversed, and carries with it no inherent and universal penalties. Thoughts? --Badger 14:26, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

I agree that this is like an ultra-restricted version of polymorph any object. I think one should just use that spell. One would only have this done to themselves in a non-aggressive setting, e.g. not in combat, since it has no effects for either side on combat and as such is useless. As such one could hire a magical user for some money, and the level can also be very role-playing dependent, as is this spell. --Green Dragon 14:51, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

My point is that the spell level is just wrong. We should consider it to be something like a level 5 spell. If it were a level 5, it would have different functions than polymorph any object. I think we should change the template from "delete" to "needs balance". There is no need to delete this spell, in my eyes. The problem is balance. That is exactly why we have a needs balance template. There is no need to delete a spell that is complete simply because it is similar to another spell. --Badger 15:38, 28 August 2010 (MDT)

Well, the spell is indeed level 5 now, which I believe is fair because of the permanent effect. The normal Polymorph spell does have an ending duration, so bumping it up one would be fair, also seeing as how limited the spell actually is. Though like the polymorph spell, maybe more spell components would be nicer to make it more like the spell. Just a thought, like perhaps a coin, two faces and such. This spell would be actually very much used in my campaigns, and adds a nice roleplaying focus. -- AnimeOtaku137 23:55, 30 August 2010 (MDT)

Yeah, I'm against deletion as well. Balance is not a reason for deletion, and this obviously is not the same as polymorph, so "non-unique" is a poor reason as well. JazzMan 16:09, 3 September 2010 (MDT)

I added Template:Delete instead of Template:Needsbalance because it had two major problems. One was not being unique. The other was the inappropriate wording or game play. As one or the other gets fixed please switch the template accordingly, of course. --Green Dragon 17:30, 7 September 2010 (MDT)

←Reverted indentation to one colon

So here's where we are: The spell has been balanced, and it considered by at least 3 (probably more) users to be unique enough to warrant a place here on the wiki. I've added the adult template, which I think covers the "inappropriate" issue. Let's keep in mind that it was pretty tastefully done, and used biological terms. It didn't use slang, and it isn't overly childish. I'm going to go ahead and completely remove the delete template and call this playable, unless there are any objections. --Badger 17:35, 7 September 2010 (MDT)

Also, to remind you, you added the delete template because you felt it was overpowered (as opposed to not unique) and inappropriate, neither of which are grounds for deletion (according to the page "why is my article up for deletion", at least). --Badger 18:35, 7 September 2010 (MDT)

I nominated this for deletion because I feel that for some reason the article is not currently of the level of quality we prefer on this wiki.

The level was the only thing changed. Is that balanced? I still find it not unique in any case.

About the inappropriate issue. Using the rules of D&D there is no need to know such information as breast size, etc. Does a starting character know? No. Should an established character know it? If one is using such rules in their campaign already, then they will already exist. If one is not using any related rules why embellish on that rule? Isn't height, weight, and other things more important, as they are even listed on the character sheet? Yes. This is my reason for the inappropriate issue. --Green Dragon 20:13, 7 September 2010 (MDT)

I find your argument for "not-unique" invalid. Many spells have greater and lesser forms, this is just like that.

As for the extra rule, I would ask you to look at alter self which says "You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind". Seems to me that this sort of thing already exists in SRD. From what I can tell, the caster should be able to choose physical qualities of the target. Would you be ok with "Caster may select any relevant physical qualities of the target, including, but not limited to, hair color, hair length, skin color, breast size, and penis length"? --Badger 13:29, 8 September 2010 (MDT)

I changed delete to needsbalance. It it balanced? Please feel free to work on this. --Green Dragon 14:00, 8 September 2010 (MDT)

Blindness/Deafness is permanent at level 2, and has a huge mechanical impact on a character. By that logic, this could be a level 1 spell. Baleful polymorph turns an unwilling target into a toad as a 5th level spell, so it should be less than 5th level. Polymorph turns a willing creature temporarily into a different creature at level 4. So I guess the question we need to ask ourself is, in D&D is it harder to make a small change forever, or a big change temporarily? Judging by the timeline set out on polymorph any object, it would seem that duration is affected by degree of change. Since we know a 2nd level caster has enough "magic" in him to manifest permanent changes, I suggest we call this a second level spell. I know I started this thread by saying 5th or 6th, and have since changed my mind like 5 times, but I think each argument has enough logic behind it to stand. --Badger 14:25, 8 September 2010 (MDT)