Talk:Draenei (4e Race)
Intimidate is already against your will defense so Draenei can be immune, No racials are highest ability mod, racial utilities gained by leveling do not increase in effectiveness, though you can make versions for higher level utility slots (PC's keep all utilities throughout their lives thus making theses undeniably better). Additional minor things 3 languages is a bit much with everything else, Custom languages should be avoided (perhaps choice of Elven, Draenei, or another fey language as that seems most appropriate to me)
- Draeni have a +1 to will, which doesn't really make them that much more immune to intimidate? The highest ability modifier makes it more balanced imo, because it means any build or class can use it, rather than specific ones. Some utilities do increase in effectiveness with higher levels. Draeni is a throw-away language.
- Strength of the Naaru: You can roll at the beginning of your turn (as well as the end) against psychic or fear effects that a save can end. In addition, you can subtract your own intimidate skill score against opposing intimidate score checks., The subtracting your own intimidate is the issue because you can add an insane reduction to others skill checks. --Aitharious (talk) 23:54, 8 July 2016 (MDT)
- Well, that was the general idea, to make them fairly resistant to intimidation. But, it would only be their intimidate score. For some, that may be just a few. If you had say, high charisma and were trained in intimidate, it may be more than 10+. However, it's still versus a d20 roll where as the Draeni is not. So, it's just a penalty. I could I could say -5, but the intimidate score itself means that increases with how intimidating you are.
- lets say I have a wisdom of 18, that gives me a will of 14 at level one, then i have training with no bonuses for intimidate so +5, that means my will against intimidate is effectively 19. now if i have a charisma of 20, giving me a base will of 15 and a base intimidate of 5, then i have training, +10. Now my will against intimidate is 25 at level one with no other racial considerations, class benefits, or equipment.
- That's the issue, Skill bonuses that are focused on keep relative pace with attack bonuses, but are normally a bit lower, (keeping them in the secondary defense area) so that +10 to the defense translates to a 50% bonus, and with 4e being built around an assumed 50% chance to hit the assumption is it's already being reduced to 0% chance to hit, making them mechanically immune to intimidation.
- They already have the +1 will, that reflects a strong mind, and sturdy willpower, they as a whole already reflect that unwillingness to back down, so you already have a mechanical representation of them being more resistant to intimidation. --Aitharious (talk) 16:04, 11 July 2016 (MDT)
- Okay, but that's literally just a +1. I'm trying to represent more than that? The +1 on top of the intimidate score skill doesn't do all that much.
- A +1 is a 5% difference, and considering you've 4e is a 50% to hit game, changing that 50% to a 45% still makes an impact on the game. and each +/- 1 makes a 5% difference. simple trained intimidate is a +5 that's a 25% difference which cuts your standard foes chance in half. Perhaps they get a small bonus against intimidate or fear, or they have a feat that gives them training in intimidate in addition to a +1 or 2 will against intimidate. --Aitharious (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2016 (MDT)
- Okay, but this 5% difference is pretty minuscule. I don't think added on to the rest that it really changes much. I can understand the idea of the intimidate thing being powerful, but not really the +1 to will. Maybe a +5 to opposing intimidate checks, if you are trained in intimidate.
- +5 on top of a +1 would give an equal level creature a mere 20% chance to intimidate, with a creature 5 levels higher only having a 45% chance. 5% in 4e doesn't sound like a lot but it can make a big difference. Even the chances here are assuming the creature focuses on intimidation, your average creature wouldn't have a chance. I would give the absolute highest at a +3 giving equal level a 30% and 5 levels higher a 55%.
- All that aside they already get to save twice each turn against psychic and fear effects and already have several great race features. So why not turn it into a feat that also gives you training in intimidate, mechanically the same and fits with the 4e style better. --Aitharious (talk) 06:58, 25 July 2016 (MDT)
- Okay, but this 5% difference is pretty minuscule. I don't think added on to the rest that it really changes much. I can understand the idea of the intimidate thing being powerful, but not really the +1 to will. Maybe a +5 to opposing intimidate checks, if you are trained in intimidate.
- A +1 is a 5% difference, and considering you've 4e is a 50% to hit game, changing that 50% to a 45% still makes an impact on the game. and each +/- 1 makes a 5% difference. simple trained intimidate is a +5 that's a 25% difference which cuts your standard foes chance in half. Perhaps they get a small bonus against intimidate or fear, or they have a feat that gives them training in intimidate in addition to a +1 or 2 will against intimidate. --Aitharious (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2016 (MDT)
- Okay, but that's literally just a +1. I'm trying to represent more than that? The +1 on top of the intimidate score skill doesn't do all that much.
- Well, that was the general idea, to make them fairly resistant to intimidation. But, it would only be their intimidate score. For some, that may be just a few. If you had say, high charisma and were trained in intimidate, it may be more than 10+. However, it's still versus a d20 roll where as the Draeni is not. So, it's just a penalty. I could I could say -5, but the intimidate score itself means that increases with how intimidating you are.
- Strength of the Naaru: You can roll at the beginning of your turn (as well as the end) against psychic or fear effects that a save can end. In addition, you can subtract your own intimidate skill score against opposing intimidate score checks., The subtracting your own intimidate is the issue because you can add an insane reduction to others skill checks. --Aitharious (talk) 23:54, 8 July 2016 (MDT)
New Changes[edit]
"No racials are highest ability mod"- There are plenty of races with the highest ability modifier, but regardless this isn't an inherent rule and with new races changes will be made. Various human racial powers use the highest ability modifier for instance, although it's from a theme.
"racial utilities gained by leveling do not increase in effectiveness"- This isn't true, and isn't an inherent rule in the game.
- The issue isn't their primary racial power but the secondary ones, these powers replace utility powers that you would normally gain from your class and these don't increase in power to my knowledge, That's my primary issue with this particular race. I have seen a few racials be highest ability mod since I made that edit but they are still few and far between, but should be the exception rather the rule so should be avoided unless necessary which is a matter of opinion by the author. --Aitharious (talk) 14:09, 14 July 2017 (MDT)
- Well I'm trying to do something different and push the boundaries, so unless it's specifically a mechanical rule I personally don't feel it's an issue. Furthermore there are a few scaling utilities or utilities that scale by proxy, so I think that's just a matter of debate.
- The issue isn't their primary racial power but the secondary ones, these powers replace utility powers that you would normally gain from your class and these don't increase in power to my knowledge, That's my primary issue with this particular race. I have seen a few racials be highest ability mod since I made that edit but they are still few and far between, but should be the exception rather the rule so should be avoided unless necessary which is a matter of opinion by the author. --Aitharious (talk) 14:09, 14 July 2017 (MDT)
"minor things 3 languages is a bit much with everything else, Custom languages should be avoided (perhaps choice of Elven, Draenei, or another fey language as that seems most appropriate to me)"-The Custom language is necessary for the Draeni, which is more of a flavor thing than some kind of actual language.