Talk:Classes (Orion Supplement)

Flavor Flaws

So the justification about these being all about melee is that the world is chaotic and everyone focuses on material posessions, and that casters are not material but abstract. 1) Being material-centric is BAD in a chaotic environment, because your shit will be stolen from you or destroyed or whatever. Abstract people are better. 2) Casters aren't even that abstract ANYWAY. They're about as in-touch with the real world as any melee class. So the justification is very poor. Plus, it rules out a ridiculous amount of monsters (I'm talking ALL of the Outer Planes monsters. Devils, Archons, Inevitables; the lot. And there are plenty more who use spellcasting or rely on SLA's for most of their combat tactics) and will really put a dent in any campaign possibilities.

Also, If every single class in here is melee, then the Okeanos are VERY weak with their -2 Str and -2 Con, and might as well not fight any wars ever. Honestly, wouldn't one of them ever think about sitting down and talking animals into fighting with them? Or mastering nature so that they've got at least some sort of competitive edge? I mean, if this world has been around long enough for Lizardfolk to evolve into a society of organized, swamp-dwelling gargoyles, I think the Okeanos have been hanging around long enough to learn enough to manipulate the powers of nature so that they don't have to rely on fighting things and getting their asses kicked.

I'm not looking at the classes. The list of them isn't complete enough to warrant review. --For Valor 00:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying to take your comments in good humor, but please remember to be nice about things, I'm getting a very unpleasant vibe from you. Always sandwich criticism between two big slices of compliments. :) Anyways, first off, I don't think your making fully educated comments on these things... so here are the things you may have missed when making this review.

1) Martial may not be the best option in a chaotic world, however in a world like Orion, the people do not know any better, and do not have the time to figure it out.

2) I personally think casters have a very abstract idea, and I think the exact opposite. From everything I've heard casters are out of touch rather than in touch as you say. Even if they are in touch and martial anyways, any DM can safely surmise that in my world at least, they aren't.

3) This does not rule out any monsters. Some monsters are less common, and many keep their magic hidden unless necessary, however these monsters still exist and can present a unique challenge for the primarily non-magical groups in the world. An experienced player would look into counter magic strategies and builds if they are planning on adventuring in magic infested areas.

4) The Okeanos are not weak, as they can choose the mystic blade, and later on a more magically focused prestige classes (which have not been added yet, but they have been mentioned). They also have great power with the hunter and can utilize the jumpers abilities relatively well.

5)Honestly, wouldn't one of them ever think about sitting down and talking animals into fighting with them? Or mastering nature so that they've got at least some sort of competitive edge?

Excuse my rudeness... but did you even read the race? They are all about mastering nature and talking to animals. Hence the favored class and many of their stat boosts and abilities. Through the hunters they can utilize magic like abilities. Giving them natural magical abilities like these would contradict every flaw you have pointed out with my races. It would make them stronger and streamline their role playing decisions even more.

So ya, I think my arguments are fairly valid, however if you still have a problem with my races, then please speak up.--Vrail 02:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

1) What IS Orion? A continent? A planet? Surely somebody took the time to learn how to focus their magic instead of using it augmentably only. Just because the world is in chaos doesn't mean nobody spends their +2d% years till death teaching themselves magic after they retire to a little old cave in the mountains. And once magic takes over... well, then people get magic items. Magic items means a more competitive edge. Which means everybody wants casters. Magic is what makes the world go 'round. That's why it's so necessary for a campaign.

2) The Wizard needs to be very in-focus to keep himself from getting sick when he Polymorphs, and the Druid is certainly not going to be ditzing around when he's Wildshaping himself into a boar. And all three classes need to be REALLY aware so that they know where to drop their Flame Strike so that it doesn't hurt them or their friends, but damages most of the opponents. That takes observational skills. But it's a DM's ruling...

3) Not some, most. 90%, heck 95%!! Once you're around level 10, monsters have SR all over the place, powerful spells, supernatural (supernatural means magical) abilities all up the wazoo, and a lot of them glow or shoot laser beams. I mean, every single Celestial and Fiend has a strong repertoire of Spells and SLAs (with the exception of the Dretch. But even that guy's got a bunch of immunities and supernatural telepathy). If you want no magic, you'd better play an E6 campaign, because that's about as far as you can go before EVERYTHING needs magic. Also, magic items.

4) Okeanos Mystic Blade vs. Kreinos (Any non-magic). Kreinos will win. In combat, the Mystic Blade might be tactically worth something, but wars between the three races would wipe out most Okeanos very quickly.

5) Magic + Animals = Druid. Ever heard of a Druid? They're one of the most popular classes around, especially with the Spell Compendium. And I wasn't talking about the race getting abilities. I was talking about an Okeanos being like "screw being a hunter... I'm going to go talk to the sheep." and eventually mastering the ability to talk to sheep before moving onto wolves, and then elephants, etc. If there's a race that lives in the woods, there should be a class that's all about talking to the woods, and using the forest to do your work instead of running in with poor melee stats and getting your ass handed to you. There should also be a full-on "nature magic" class, because at some point, the okeanos will realize that they're not as good at stabbing people in the face as the Charons or Kreinos and will look for another way to win. With a crazy-elven lifespan, you can bet they'll figure it out.

So no racial streamlining. Just more variability for the classes.--For Valor 05:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

1) Orion is a god and later a world (it talks about it in the history to some degree, but I'm adding more on that). As for magic... uhhh... DM's prerogative? Orion wants to limit magic? I dunno... its just part of the idea behind the setting, if your really that into a reason behind it, I'll find a good one and write about it somewhere on the setting page. :)

2) In all the stories the great and powerful wizards are either insane, or talk abstractly and metaphorically. Magic is way out there and crazy for us. One can be smart yet out of touch with reality. Think of the famous play Macbeth. Later on in the play Macbeth and Lady Macbeth both start going insane and getting more and more out of touch with reality, however they are still smart and scheming.

3) Again, I'll bring up my early point as I think it is still valid... this one isn't going to go anywhere. :)

4) I wouldn't be so sure if I were you. I think you are underestimating the power of the Okeanos and that of the mystic blade.

5) I'm not sure what you mean exactly with this, as I think my earlier comment still applies. However again the full on magic nature class idea, I'm going to reference back to #1 about limmiting magic.

I think the classes are fairly variable, however you are right to some degree about the races being to specialized.--Vrail 06:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC)