Talk:Blade Mage (5e Class)

Any questions or concerns? I would love any kind of feedback.

Problems

I don't know who's been making edits to this since last july 2016, but there's a lot of changes and additions that make no sense, and as an experience DM, I cannot agree with. This was previously a well balanced class. Somebody who must not have been the original author has come through and made this a terrible class. If you wish to use the previous, well written, and balanced version of this class, I found the revision. http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Blade_Mage_(5e_Class)&oldid=777755

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In response to what has been stated above, I wholeheartedly agree. I went through every single edit made up to the present, and the changes that have been made are completely absurd. Although after going through the revisions I would suggest reverting the page back to this revision http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Blade_Mage_(5e_Class)&oldid=801215 as it has some minor capitalization changes and a small nerf to the *Braver* ability, but I also believe that after reverting it back to this state, some more spells from Xanathar's Guide to Everything should be added.

Questions

I'd like to start by saying I really like this class but I have quite a few questions/suggestions but mainly just clarifications.

Blade Magic: on the blade magic section is a spell released only on a successful melee attack or do you roll a separate spell attack for it whether your attack is successful or not? I think it should only release on a successful hit with the enchanted weapon, but if that is the case is the spell wasted on a miss or does the weapon hold the spell until it hits? I was also wondering if it would be possible to charge a weapon out of combat. For example when your character knows they are about to start a fight and wants to prepare their weapon with a spell charge before it begins. Maybe specify that a weapon can be charged and holds the spell for a set duration (ie. 10-15 mins.) or until a successful hit causes it to be released. Maybe this could coincide with the releasing part. For example a charged weapon could hold its spell for 15 mins or 5 rounds of battle, whichever comes first at which point the spell dissipates and the spell slot is wasted. This would allow you to prepare for battle by charging your weapon prior to battle commencing. A set round limit, as in the example above, would give you some maneuverability combat-wise so that if you miss with your attack in the first round, the spell would not release (because you did not hit with your attack) nor would it be wasted unless you failed to land a hit in the following 4 rounds.

The spell is released if the attack connects or not, the "resolve" portion means that if the attack misses or hits it is released. At level 10, you may make more then 1 attack, but it is released after any attack connects (allowing you to add the bonus damage only once), or after your last attack is resolved. At level 14 you can keep your charge through all your attacks (adding the extra damage) and is released at the end of your turn or when your last attack connects (whichever comes first), if you release a spell you no longer have the benefit of charged strike.

As far as charging weapons prior to combat I specifically designed against that concept, this class is designed to require the use of a bonus action every round (cancelling out two-weapon fighting, shield bashing, etc. and the flexibility to play differently each round. Blade Magic is stressful, holding onto spells for more then one round I think would be overpowered.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Thanks for the clarification. But what happens to the spell if you miss with your melee attack? It makes sense that if your melee attack hits your spell that it was charged with releases at that point and also hits, but what if it doesn't? You said it releases either way so what happens to the spell? If the weapon attack misses does the spell automatically miss also? Or do you perhaps make a separate attack roll for the spell then? If it does automatically miss when the melee attack misses does the miss effect take place such as 1/2 damage from a fireball or does it fail completely?

If you miss with your attack the spell will still trigger (until you reach higher levels) the spell behaves as normal if your attack misses. Sorry for the delayed response.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 12:10, 10 July 2015 (MDT)

Improved Blade Magic: The second part of this says at 10th level you can use all of your attacks but your spell releases "after an attack connects" leading to my assumption that you intended the spell to only release on successful hits which wasn't clear in the first part. I still think there should be some limits imposed on the length the charges last though as I said before. Also, can you choose to cancel a charge if you want using your bonus action? Can you charge a weapon multiple times? If so, would the effects stack or maybe the first spell releases on the first hit and the second on the next? If not what happens if you try to charge it multiple times? Would the second spell simply cancel the first and takes its place and wasting your spell slot at the same time or perhaps the addition of another spell would cause one or both to release early with the wielder as the target? This would be especially important to know when the lingering magic takes effect. Can you absorb a spell if your weapon is already charged? Does it do the same thing as if you had tried to cast multiple charges as stated above? Or can you maybe charge a different weapon with the absorbed spell as long as you have another bonded weapon with you that can hold a charge?

Due to the time turn restraint forcing you to release a spell by the end of your turn you cannot charge a blade with more then one spell at a time, doing so would allow a player to nova (do nothing for a turn or two, then unleash a massive attack).--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Final Blade Magic: The last part says that at level 14 you can hold onto the spell until the end of your turn or until all of your attacks hit. I wanted some clarification on this part too. Are you saying that if you charge your sword after level 14 all of the attacks you make with it release the spell effects if they hit? For example if you charged a weapon with fireball and then attacked successfully with both swings as granted by your extra attack feature you would do your weapon damage plus the 8D6 fire damage from the basic level 3 fireball twice over? Also I was wondering if you could enchant another characters weapon assuming you allowed the aforementioned rule on charging a weapon before battle starts? If not maybe you should include a restriction like only being able to charge your own bonded weapons. I was also a little confused by the word usage specifically the recurring use of "blades". In the bonding section it says you can bond to any weapons you are proficient in except unarmed strikes. The class gives you proficiency with bows as well and if you were say a dwarf you would be proficient with hammers could you not bond these as well? I assume you can but the recurring use of "blades" specifically makes this confusing.

At level 14, if you strike with your weapon you may release the spell, if not your weapon retains the charged strike property, you are unable to release more than one spell this way. I understand the murky water on charging a weapon, honestly I would leave this up to the DM, if they allowed charging another creature's weapon you would be required to touch the weapon, and be proficient with that specific weapon, they gain the properties of the charged strike and blade magic until they meet the requirements for unleashing the spell.

The recurring use of "blades" refers to a weapon you are proficient with, this was meant as a shortcut with a bit of flavor, sorry for the confusion. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Spellcasting: I couldn't find anywhere that specifies what your spellcasting ability is for casting your spells. Although it doesn't look like it matters for enchanting your weapons you still have a few spells that can be cast outside of battle. As a matter of fact many of the spells available to learn cannot be cast on weapons as they can only be charged with evocation spells that don't require concentration

My apologies, I will update it, your spellcasting ability would be charisma. Only about 1/3 of your spells are meant to be used as blade magic, you only get 10 spells, and I'm sure most players will want a bit of spell variety out of combat, besides, what would a sword with the Jump spell in it actually do?--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Lingering Magic: In the section Lingering Magic it states that it may cause the spell to detonate early or attack you instead. Its not very clear but I assume this is what happens if you fail the Charisma save to capture it? If so, which is it, detonate or target you, and how do you determine this? It also says this must be released by the end of your turn. I assume this is supposed to be the end of your next turn maybe? Also if you fail to release what happens? Does it dissipate safely or perhaps go off in your face? Perhaps impose the same rules for weapon charging from sections 1 and 2 "Blade Magic" and "Improved Blade Magic". I also think that maybe you should stipulate that you must use your reaction to attempt to capture a spell. Also as well as not working on cantrips I would say the spell being captured must meet the other requirements for charging a weapon: evocation, no concentration. Also I would think you shouldn't be able to capture a spell of a higher level than you can cast. For example if you are level 10 your highest level spell slot is a 5th level slot therefore you can't capture any spells cast with a 6th level slot or higher. In summation you can't capture a spell that is stronger than you can cast.

If you fail the charisma save, nothing happens, if you succeed the spell behaves wildly (if its a line spell it will end at the point you capture it, if its a fireball it explodes right where it was captured, etc, you then capture it. It essentially becomes a spell used by your blade magic (same rules, just starts a little sooner). I changed it to use a reaction and I agree with the evocation requirement. and also changed it no only affect up to 5th level spells.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Thanks again. I think you might need to change the wording on this part though. It says it captures the spell leading me to assume that the original spell would be nullified or absorbed by the blade. This is more of a spell copy or duplication than a capture as the original spell still takes affect. It makes more sense after your explanation though. You may also stipulate what happens to the magical energy. For example after you successfully capture a spell the magical energy dissipates. This way there is no question of whether or not you can capture 2 spells. So if two spells are cast at you and you fail to catch the first you can still attempt to catch the second, but if you catch the first and another is then cast at you your out of luck. Nothing saying you can't be targeted twice by casters before you get another turn.

You are correct, my terminology should be fixed, thanks. I thought the use of a reaction (only 1 per turn) would enforce this, but I'll add in the extra detail.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 12:10, 10 July 2015 (MDT)

Bulwark: I would suggest that when you take this Destiny that you specify that shields are now considered weapons for you. You should be able to make attacks with shields as if they were weapons so you get an attack bonus equal to your proficiency bonus + your strength modifier and a damage bonus equal to your strength modifier as with any other weapon.

Updated, thanks.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Vanishing Death: What happens to your shield if you cannot teleport to it and catch it? Does it simply fall where it hits the target or can you call it back to your hand? If you choose not to teleport or run out of uses can you still use your shield throw? I feel like maybe you should be able to throw your shield any time and stipulate that the teleport feature is the only part with a limited number of uses. Also what are your attack modifier and damage modifier for this attack? Do you get any attack or damage bonuses beyond the normal weapon attack bonuses previously suggested (at bonus = prof + str mod and dam bonus = str mod) or perhaps more damage as this is a special feature?

If you are out of teleports it simply falls like any other projectile. You can keep throwing your shield after you are out of uses. Like a regular throwing weapon you use your strength modifier, other then the change it is a normal throwing attack.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Shifting Destinies: When you choose a second creature is the range also 60ft. from the blade mage or 60ft from the first target selected? Can you target yourself with this feature?

The range is still 60 feet centered on you, you may target yourself.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

Brink of Death: It should be specified that when you lose your levels of exhaustion you double that number and it becomes a pool of exhaustion. Then go on to explain that you can cast any spell equal to or lower than the number in your pool. Also the healing part is confusing. Is it if you had 5 levels of exhaustion when you started or is it supposed to say if you have 5 levels after you double it in what was referred to as an exhaustion pool? It says 5 levels of exhaustion not 5 levels in your exhaustion pool, but it says this after it talks about doubling it so it is quite confusing. When does the healing take place? Before the spell, after, or does it matter? This may affect what spell you choose as certain spells may damage yourself, especially if you charge your blade with them?

The healing portion is if you started with 5 levels of exhaustion, and takes place the moment you lose your exhaustion levels (before any spells are cast), I will try to clarify this ability more, but found it difficult to describe.--Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

General: I think the extra attack feature should be spelled out with the rest of the features as some classes get more extra attacks than others. For example the ranger only gets one extra attack at level 5 whereas the fighter gets extra attacks at levels 5, 11, and 20. Spelling it out completely makes it much clearer. Also I think this character is overpowered. All other classes that are mainly melee characters have 1/2 casting to supplement their abilities ie. the ranger and paladin. The classes that have full casting (get 6th-9th level slots) do not get extra attack features and are generally only proficient with very limited weapons and armor. This class also gets far too many martial features (a Destiny with 4 features, Charged Strike, Lingering Magic, etc.) to be allowed to also have full casting. For most casting classes they learn new spells and gain additional spell slots and higher level slots instead of gaining features when they level. This class is getting both martial features and new spell slots every level making it far stronger than all others. I think this class should have the 1/2 casting instead of full casting like other similarly powered classes. This still leaves this class quite strong as the spell list still contains many spells that do very high damage. Comparatively neither the ranger or paladin get access to spells like cloudkill (5D8 20ft radius), Cone of Cold (8D8 60ft cone), Ice Storm (2D8 Blud + 4D6 cold 20ft radius), Fireball (8D6 fire 20ft radius), or any other spells with damage nearly that high. They generally only have the ability to learn 1 or 2 damage dealing spells at the 4th or 5th level (their max spell level). The spell damage may even need to be halved or possibly stipulate that area of effect spells only hit a max number of targets (2-3/ spell mod. maybe) to properly balance this class.

Completely spaced the extra attack, I will fix this, it is meant to get only two total attacks per round.

As far as being overpowered I will defend it: Damage per round (actual spell not calculated) at level 5, 11, 20 (assuming for a longsword or longbow and a +3)

Fighter 5: 2d8+6=15, Fighter 11: 3d8+9=22.5, Fighter 20: 4d8+12=30.

Rogue 5: 1d8+3d6+3=15, Rogue 11: 1d8+6d6+3=28.5, Rogue 20: 1d8+10d6+3=44.5

Wizard 5: 2d10=11, Wizard 11: 3d10=16.5, Wizard 20: 4d10=22.

BM 5: 2d8+3=15, BM 11: 2d8+1d6+6=18.5, BM 20: 6d8+6=33.

Things to note, the Blade Mage's damage is with blade magic being used EVERY TURN, I doubt players will spam one or two evocation spells every turn (look at wizards, most players can throw a fireball every round during every encounter at higher levels, but they don't.
MAD: The Blade Mage is a very MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) class, requiring a high Strength or Dexterity, Constitution, and charisma, causing you to focus only many abilities, unlike a rogue or wizard.
Middle of Chaos: A Blade Mage will most likely be in the thick of combat, and will occasionally light themselves on fire with their own attacks, I suspect that melee focused will use line spells to avoid hitting themselves while ranged ones will use radius spells.
Bonus Actions: Very few abilities can be used at once, using a bonus action to teleport or using unending assault means you can't use your Blade Magic. Known Spells: Admit it, 10 known spells at level 20 is pitiful, assuming you get a spell per slot that gives you 1 free spell, I doubt all of them will be evocation spells, I would bet at maximum 5 will be evocation, specialization is their enemy.
As far as half versus full caster: Paladins are very one note combat classes, Ranger's are thought to be very underpowered, I tried to make this class versatile, many of the class features do deal with combat, but the spells are there to even them out.
Exhaustion: Read what exhaustion does, it is very detrimental, and really hampers the class, but causes players to make creative and risky moves, will you see your Blade Mage doing some really cool moves? Of course, will they suffer for their risks? Most definitely. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2015 (MDT)

I had a few questions regarding Legendary Swordsmanship. How does wielding a 2h heavy weapon work? Does it also act as a light/finesse weapon, or is that only for a free hand as a dual-wielder? Say I wield a greatsword in one hand as a dex-based character. Do I get the dex bonus for attack and damage? Also, if I have a hand free(for dual-wielding), does that mean any weapon choice, including another greatsword, could be wielded as a light/finesse weapon? Or would the second blade only work as something such as a longsword as a light/finesse weapon? The wording seems slightly confusing, or I'm just misunderstanding the feature. Also, would wearing a shield in the off-hand change any of the aformentioned mechanics? Thank you!

It only acts as a light finesse weapon while you are wielding no item in your other hand (no weapon or shield) yes if you are dex based you can wield a greatsword one handed, but you cannot wield 2 of them at once. So a str based character could wield a greatsword and a shield (one handed) but a dex based character would be unable to do so. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2015 (MDT)

I have 2 questions about magic with this class. The first is why there are no cantrips available? In looking at all the other magic using classes, I see that each and every one of them has access to a number of cantrips. I respect that this class shouldn't be given so much power as to be OP, but the lack of cantrips is a rather large handicap for a magic user. My second question has to do with the classes of spells available. In my opinion, at least the Mystical Bulwark Destiny option should have access to Abjuration spells, as a melee caster isn't likely to have gone into combat with only offensive spells. There is some call for additional versatility in that direction. A thought on cantrips, is it possible to limit them to being received at higher levels, or provide the class with only 1 at first level and 2 at a later level? Seeing as most classes have from between 3 and 5 through the levels, this appears reasonable.

Cantrips: I purposely eliminated cantrips from this class to more distinguish it as a martial/caster hybrid, seeing as it focuses more on martial abilities enhanced by magic I could not justify giving it cantrips apart from an archetype choice that granted limited cantrips. To answer the second part of your question, if you want versatility go prophetic seeker, offense go master of blades, defense go mystical bulwark. This class doesn't need cantrips and if it does get them it defeats the purpose of the class, if you really want cantrips choose a high elf, or get the magic initiate feat, this class doesn't need anymore versatility. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 22:34, 15 September 2015 (MDT)

Spell list: I actually debated about granting abjuration instead of either conjuration or transmutation (I only wanted 3 types to limit them from the sorcerer's potential), but ultimately decided against it due to the sorcerer's lack of interesting abjuration spells, yes you could get dispel/counter magic, mage armor and shield, but that's about it, that would be worth mentioning. In another note, the blade mage isn't the typical caster, it is supposed to be reckless and offense driven, abjuration would not only put more emphasis on combat (something this class already heavily favors), but also make them the most defensive class of all if you choose bulwark (plate armor + 2 shields + shield = 31 AC) and that is like giving the DM the finger, all day long. What it boils down to is having a special niche for the blade mage, that doesn't end up being a combination of sorcerer and paladin with no drawbacks. --Tubal-Cain (talk) 22:34, 15 September 2015 (MDT)

How much money does this class start with?

As in the Starting Wealth by Class table (p. 143)? (I ought to incorporate that into the preload) Marasmusine (talk) 13:37, 1 November 2015 (MST)

The Blade Magic ability, would that not reduce the casting speed of a number of spells, giving a rather significant function boost for magic use?

You may fuel the Charged attack ability with Spell Slots to deal varying amount of damage based on the spell slot level used, and restore cantrips, limiting the choose-able cantrips on combat enhancing and defensive cantrips, maybe, giving the character some "Cantrip Slot" useable too with the charged attack. --93.46.16.113 07:08, 20 December 2015 (MST)

Sorry if I misread somewhere or didn't understand at some point (I'm a foreigner) but...at what point does exhaustion kick in? After the release of the blade magic or at certain levels? Because the Blade Magic states that if you fail a constitution save with certain DC from 6th to 9th level (how does the exhaustion change after that?) you get an exhaustion point. Also the Fate's Protection states: "You recover your levels of exhaustion caused by this class when you take a long rest." So do you get exhaustion points from the start by using Blade Magic and for the save DC until 6th level you use your charisma? I'm quite confused by this...Also...how do ranged spells work with Blade Magic exactly?

I have some questions, it is to my understanding that one should avoid making class feat's that replicate general feat's. It seems to me like alot of this class features copy a specific aspects from alot of feats (often the only usefull part of that feat) forexample the first feature blade bond "you can provide the somatic component of spells with your blade" this is essentially warcaster but without concentration advantage beacuse this class can't concentrate. Magic absorption rode: this seems really overpowered compared to other similiar abilties (mostly capstone ability of magic tricksters which makes the enemy do the save and can only be used only once pr day, and up to a maximum of 4th lvl) and lacking in details (how close does the ally have to be) also it makes almost no reason for this to be a save. A save is meant to be used when you are the target of a special ability, so it should be a straigtup ability check using the spellcaster modifier. also the consequences for failing is a positive. with such a powerfull positive benefit to succseding it needs to balance out if you fail, not merely a disadvantage if the spell is 5 lvl or more. but keeping in line with the powerlevel "the spell targets you instead and you automatically fail the saving throw". there are many more I feel should be edited espesially all of the "you can use this feature equal to your cha mod" is fine if it only concerns 1 feature, if there is more you should instead use a point pool (such as monks ki or sorcers sorcery points). also some features mentions using cantrips when this class is incapable of using cantrips.

Concerns

I know this was discussed in the questions section, but in conclusion, does Lingering Magic cause the spell change its target to you/your location or not? --UltimateDefender18 (talk) 22:03, November 2 2011 (CDT)

Thank You

If you have helped in any way, thank you for your support.