Talk:Blackheart (5e Race)

Help

I'm trying to add a link to the Large Player Character variant rule page as the word "Large" in the text on the size line, but it won't let me. Help.--GD-Psycho (talk) 15:30, 21 July 2017 (MDT)

I'm trying to understand the need for all the racial traits on top of large size? It's mentioned that one way to value Large is +3 and its best to aim for 4.5 total value. Would you consider toning down your race, or recreating it as a monster? I think the latter is better in all honesty. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:47, 5 October 2017 (MDT)

Balance Suggestions

• Ability Score Increase. Your Strength increases by 2 and your Constitution increases by 2
• Size. Medium
• Black Blood. The Blackhearts most notable feature is their black blood. It can be hardened to the durability of adamantine upon contact with oxygen and is quite thick. When you are at half hit hoints from weapons you gain resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
• Baatezu Retaliation-remove

I'd make these changes to balance the race out. If I didn't mention a trait, I'd live it as is. The Baetzu thing isn't really necessary. If it is, much too powerful as written. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:06, 17 October 2017 (MDT)

Yes, it has more points to it, 6 in fact, but it is an almost inherently evil race. In a decent moral game system, Good options are harder but more rewarding to the player as an investment later, whereas Evil options are easier and reward the short term but "backfire" later on. A backfire could be a social standing, constantly on the run from the law, literal gods getting involved, etc.

Also, there are no bonuses given that don't have their own drawbacks. +2 to two scores, -1 to another. In order for them to gain resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage you have to have been halved by weapon attacks. The AoE burst that you can pump immediately knocks you unconscious and gives you a failed death save. I will add a stipulation to the Natural AC to mirror the Lizardfolks', but other than that I am leaving the Blackhearts as the are.

>>EDIT<< Hard Blood already has the stipulation of being unarmored to gain the ability. --GD-Psycho (talk) 23:58, 23 October 2017 (MDT)

I never mentioned Hard Blood....

There are no backfires for this race. its inherently better than core races. #1 being it is large. Who cares about social standing if you're evil? Negatives don't outweigh the positives or even come close to balancing things for this race. No one cares about a -1 ability score because of dump stats. *har har, lower charisma, darn* currently it says lost 20 hit points, so until a blackheart reaches level 3 or 4, maybe even 5 pending HD this trait is moot. The way I've written actually allows use.

Baatezu-the diameter isn't define. if I spend 100 hit points, do I get 100 ft? 100 in? 100 miles? Did you intentional use a saving throw formula different from 5e and similar to 3.5? (5e uses 8+ability modifier+ proficiency bonus)Even on a save, they'll take 2d8+con bonus+50 if the character has 100 hp. I get the save is low but low rolls happen too. You use 1 death saving throw but those don't matter unless you have a DM trying to sabotage a character because stabilizing is fairly easy in 5e. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:17, 24 October 2017 (MDT)

If being evil as a social hindrance isn't a backfire, we play very different versions of DnD. Social concepts of good and evil are always sticking points in the games I run and am a part of.

I fixed the radius issue you mentioned; I'll check the original page which indeed was a 3.5e race.

The 20 Hit Points lost is a level dependent thing which can come earlier to d12 and d10 classes but slower to the rest as a racial bias towards martial classes (the original was a free attack when hit).

I also don't know how you play 5e if stabilization is easy. The probability spread for self stabilizing grants you (11/20*11/20*11/20) = 1331/8000 = 16.6375% of stabilizing yourself through saving throws. Failing after using this ability is equal to (9/20*9/20) = 81/400 = 20.25% (this sounds odd given the 50/50 spread of living or dying, but that is context that numbers don't care about). At the end of that, you might be stabilized, but you're still at 0 Hit Points and Incapacitated. Unless someone uses their action to cast a spell or attempt a Medicine check with a Healer's Kit, you're out of the fight and at risk of losing your character. --GD-Psycho (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2017 (MDT)

We aren't playing different versions, I'm saying if you are evil, what do you care if people like you or not? You're freaking evil, they're all gonna die anyways.

Guess I'm not keen on waiting 3-5 levels for my racial trait to work. To each their own then.

I am still playing the same game you are, perhaps my players work better together as a team because the spell or medicine check is what I am referring. I suppose if players don't want to stabilize their party members, maybe even friend, then that's a different group play style. I think the game is designed with player cooperation in mind and they should want to use that action to save their comrade from dying. The death saving throws I think are a fail safe for players when RL people won't do the right thing (or TPK makes it impossible) So for this, I know I have someone who has an all in nuke thing. "Hey man, do that thing you do, and I'll stabilize" "yeah okay" so as said, one failed death saving throw, big whoop.

And still, the large thing. No real justification for it. just a need to be innately better/OP BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:46, 29 October 2017 (MDT)

Charisma isn't about people liking you, its about your ability to present yourself in a way you can control. An Intimidation check doesn't make someone like you, but it's Charisma based. The race has the Menacing trait much like Half-Orcs do; they have an easier time making themselves look frightening due to them being larger and covered in dried blood. The Cha -1 is a callback to their racial origins; people who know what a Blackheart is, which should be most people if this race expands the world by existing, have a general bias against being frightened or coerced by a cursed people from a prideful bastard's kingdom.

<side note> Being evil doesn't immediately mean going on a murder spree or killing anything on sight (i. e. politicians). A good character could do the same thing to kobolds; it's still murder. </side note>

The waiting for this trait is supposed to be a balance in its own right. Since DR isn't really a thing in 5e, I couldn't translate the old ability verbatim nor keep the free attack feature. The original text, after edits, reads as follows:

Black Blood (Su): The Blackhearts most notable feature is their black blood. It can be hardened to the durability of adamantine upon contact with oxygen, and is quite thick. For every 10 HP you are missing from weapon damage, you gain Damage Reduction 5/Adamantine.

Black Blood Retaliation (Su): The Blackheart's other fascinating feature is that when their blood solidifies it has a tendency to solidify in outward spikes often impaling allies. Whenever an enemy deals damage to you all creatures adjacent to you make a Reflex save (DC 10). Those that fail the save take 1d8 + Con modifier piercing damage.

(Any thoughts for the original would be appreciated.) Full Resistance at level 1 is way too much, especially for Barbarians. However, every martial class would benefit from this ability in the early levels. Having players wait until a certain point that isn't given at a specific level made the most sense to me at the time. People will have to optimize their Constitution to get this earlier, but never before level 2. It still leaves them just as vulnerable to environmental effects, poisons, and spells.

You glanced the head of the nail there. In most of my playing experience (I DM a lot) turns in combat not spent making things die better be worth it. Most Clerics I've fought beside don't have enough spell slots to keep everyone up and running. Healing Word is fantastic, but a DM with some imagination creates distance and angled fighting arenas. I have my graphic calculator emulator app open as often as my spellbook app. More than once have we been praying for misses while the party has 5-10 HP divided amongst them. In an average session, the martial frontliner (generally me) is halved at round 2 from being focused as the tank generally is. (No, I don't get any backup other than Healing Word the full 120 ft. away.) I did get an idea for an effect of Retaliation while typing this just thinking about MinMaxer strats, so I'll add it in.

I'm still not sold on Large being an issue. Does it bring iffy mechanics to the table? Absolutely, but a clever DM needs to operate around them or use them to make the game better. Its all about fun for everyone, after all. DMing is storytelling + writing + daycare (if you don't agree, meet my players -.-). --GD-Psycho (talk) 21:28, 31 October 2017 (MDT) (forgot this)

I won't touch the 3.5 stuff. It's been too long and what I remember it's a system that's broken and abused by min/maxers. It kind of explains this races conversion to 5e :) I know Charisma isn't about people liking you, more so your ability to affect the world (tomato/tomahtoe) and I don't see this race or a player caring about a -1 Charisma, I repeat dump stats. This only hurts Bards & Warlocks? so big woop.
For every 20hp missing a +1AC could be had? blood hardens the more hp you lose? every 10 would be too much AC in a system with limits.
We could both list our resumes but I don't care for urination contests. The consensus I've gotten from online D&D community, and my own play experience, stabilizing is easy with the assistance of party members. Unless you've got a DM headhunting a kill.
I don't think a DM should have to play around poor homebrew design. This race offers fun in numbers min/max optimization way with roleplay secondary. A "clever" homebrew design and player needs to operate around balance and story to make the homebrew and playing better. Its all about fun but not if one PC does what 2-3 can do.
the half radius is nice touch to retaliation. I want to add its hard to balance Large homebrew because WoTc doesn't have one (iirc) but it does have a flyer which is almost equivalent in power terms. Take a look at how other benefits that race got. I'd say this race as is, better than all others. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:14, 30 October 2017 (MDT)

This isn't your IP address, is it? The edits this made make things much harder to calculate numbers for no reason. - 2607:fea8:2a1f:f1f4:d968:63c:9e3e:48e2

I didn't mean to write that out as a dick-measurement challenge, my apologies.

The AC increase is a decent workaround, though for that 20 is a lot and 10 isn't enough for higher levels. 15 HP lost = +1 AC?

What about a trait that gives them a slight detriment to Dex saves due to size? Something to mirror the size category guidelines from earlier editions? Do we know if any large rules will be published in Zanathar's? They missed their chance with Volo's. --GD-Psycho (talk) 21:28, 31 October 2017 (MDT)

I do 99% while logged in. I undid those edits for same exacts reasons. 15 might give things too much. I know 20 seems high but you really don't want to be handing out AC (if this alternative jives with you/community)
I know what you are referencing in regards to earlier edition penalties, it seems 5th really tries to stray away from that style of creation and rather stick with balancing benefits. Might I ask the determination for large? I've read everything and I'm still missing the certainty for including this in the race design. I agree 100% they missed the chance with Volo's but one could assume they weren't ready for that in 5th (large creatures) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:23, 1 November 2017 (MDT)

Since they never added their own rules I use the 3e, 3.5e, and PF rules for size categories. The categories still hold consistency in 5e, though unspoken. Dwarves are Medium and can't be shorter than 4 ft., no Small races are taller than 4 ft., and nothing breaches 8 ft., save Goliath's according to Volo's, keeping Large out of the picture.

Since the original design was about a race of transformed, monstrous humans and also Large, I wanted to maintain that theme. In my mind, they are as if you took an average human, made their circulatory system external and then gave them abnormal muscle mass. Where this wouldn't realistically make them +8' tall by base, I want to say it was the keyword "monstrous" that made them Large before I found the page. Kind of like a bogeyman people that Orcs and Orogs still kind of fear in adulthood. I'm still piecing this together, lore-wise, myself as it wasn't my race. I just fixed grammar and rewrote the background before I balanced the stats.

Even so, Size really does matter both mechanically and thematically. Something would be lost if Blackhearts were Medium. Halflings get a big chunk of their identity and reputation from being Small. Since 5e is so thematic based and has gaps in the mechanics, I guess we wait until WotC paves the road for us. I and a friend have been working on mechanics like these with written out weapon and armor rules statistics for different size categories not in 5e (another friend really missed being a Pixie), but I wasn't aware of the scope of the work we set out to do. It would be amazing if us on this Wiki collaborated for things like this. --GD-Psycho (talk) 12:52, 3 November 2017 (MDT)