Talk:Bishop (3.5e Class)

Ex-Bishop

If the Bishop ever moves in a non-diagonal fashion, he loses all class abilities and spellcasting. --TK-Squared 14:32, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

Niice. → Rith ^(talk) 15:01, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

Comments

First off, I would like to posit that this character class is so brokenly overpowered it has become morbidly amusing. First off, the spell progression alone makes this class ridiculous- the ability to cast spells of a level equal to your character level is ridiculously overpowered. Only two other classes in the game, both of them prestige classes that can only be entered at level 5 or beyond, and the one that doesn't require having 5 levels of ex-druid is one of the most powerful prestige classes in the game just based on the spellcasting. Added to this, you've given that Bishop an improved version of the Paladin's Divine Grace ability, which is again, insanely powerful. Many Charisma-based builds, especially 'Sorcadins', willingly lose two levels of casting progression to gain that ability and the Weapon and Armor proficiencies of the Paladin. You're giving this ability to a first level character whose entire build is already focused on utilizing that one stat on all of its spellcasting. Second, as prepared spellcasters, they can automatically prepare Sanctified spells from the Book of Exalted Deeds. The second level and fourth level spells, Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor, more than compensate for the loss of armor proficiencies, and when combined with the Divine Fate ability, gives them a higher armor class than most clerics. Second, the loss of BAB in the class doesn't actually matter- by casting a 4th level spell, Divine Power, they gain a +6 bonus to Strength and a full BAB. With racial weapon proficiencies, such as those of an elf, or even the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, the Bishop becomes a powerful melee combatant. In addition, the fact that the class has Turn/Rebuke Undead as a class feature means that they can take the Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell feat, and change the duration on the spell to 24 hours. Then, you have given the Bishop access to spells far above any other class, so a 7th level Bishop can start using Holy Word and Blasphemy. Even at 5th level, the Bishop can cast Slay Living. And that's not even counting the ability that they can cast Miracle at character level 9. And at higher levels, when they get the Gods Power ability, they can use Geas/Quest as a Standard action. Which offers no save. This class is blatantly overpowered, even without bonus feats and the quite ridiculous number of spells per day. Please, for the love of god, fix this before someone tries using it in their game.

If you take a look at the edit history, you'll find that an unlogged user made all the changes you're objecting to. The original Bishop was actually pretty well balanced before it had all that crap added. It hasn't been fixed yet because the original author left when the wiki split happened. -Ichai (talk) 17:59, 15 September 2012 (MDT)

holy crap did you see that typical encounter entry? jesus christ take a rememdial writing class

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it represents a mastery of the divine energy that surrounds everything in the D&D world. --Guardian 13:29, 3 July 2009 (MDT)

Rating nullified because the class has changed since the rating was given. → Rith ^(talk) 22:11, 13 July 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it wasn't as good as your usual, it was more like Frank and K's crap. I think you could improve it by giving it some thought on how it interacts with the world --Guardian 13:29, 3 July 2009 (MDT)

Well, if you read the top of the page, just above the picture, it says, "Status: WIP" and "Editing: Please Discuss before Editing. (No editing while I am away)". Now then, you may have missed these when you passed through the page the first time, and there isn't anything wrong with that, though, as you can see, I've attempted to make it clear that I will not be able to edit this page for a while, and, in fact, I've already thought of a few idea's for this class, and I'm more than likely going to change the mechanics themselves whenever I actually get a chance to do so. Thanks for the interest. Also, Frank & K classes aren't crap, they simply work on a different system than most. Not knowing this system, will usually make them seem overpowered. → Rith ^(talk) 15:53, 3 July 2009 (MDT)

Rating nullified because the class has changed since the rating was given. → Rith ^(talk) 22:11, 13 July 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because you havn't finished the class yet and i know that when you do it will be flawless. --Guardian 13:29, 3 July 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I like Divine stuff and this is a great example of how the D&D universe is constently changing (and i always thought that the cleric was a bit under-powered). --Guardian 13:29, 3 July 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because in many ways it strikes me as inferior to a standard cleric. It draws from the same spell list and has the same spells per day, but looking at first level, you trade armor proficiency, one more good save, turning ability (not that big of a deal), and better melee ability for a divine grace equivalent. Divine grace is definitely very nice and it probably overcomes the presence of a singular high save, but if I'm looking at level one, you look pretty squishy to me (especially with those d4 hit dice). Divine Fate would be a nice offset to the lack of armor, but you give it sort of late (I'm thinking getting it really early would be better, like level one, two, or three, to offset the lack of armor proficiency). The bonus feats are nice, but nothing special. Gods Power is very nice, although only once per day seems a little restrictive. I'm thinking you could make it scale a little (up to maybe three times per day or so) to help fill in those dead levels (if you wanted to, you could also give it a little earlier, I think, without hurting the balance). Sacred Aura is sweet, but I would also suggest making it scale. For example, you have sixth or below at 19, but what if you have fifth or below at 17, fourth or below at 15, and so on.

In short, it seems like the wizard and the cleric had a baby, and she got the wizard's frailty with the cleric's spellcasting. The substitute abilities are nice, but I don't think they bridge the void where armor would be at lower levels, or the possibility of divine metamagic (if you're using it) at higher levels (I mean, Sacred Aura pretty much is divine metamagic, but you're getting it so late, where the right cleric build can set up Persistent Spell at level one). --Jota 14:41, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Well, when I wrote this class, I was a little rushed, and new that I was going to be giving this class incredible survivability. Knowing that, I did not want to make it overpowered (considering how much freaking power spellcasters have already), so, I tuned it down a bit. The end result, I now see, may be considered a little weak. That being said, I beleive I shall up the HD to d6, and change the fortitude save to good. I will also make Gods Power scaling in uses, but I don't want people shooting out 4 fireballs that ignore spell resistance and don't provoke attacks of opportunity a day either, Sacred Aura will stay the way it is now, since it is already almost broken, the level restriction is there so that it isn't too powerful in fact. Also, don't want to stagger the class features around too much, because it has a pattern as it is now, a class feature at 1st level, and every 6 levels afterwards. Thanks for the interest in the class btw, Jota. → Rith ^(talk) 16:10, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

I understand where you're coming from with the spellcasters pooping on kids and why you would dial it back a bit, but that's just less incentive to be a bishop and more incentive to be a cleric, from a player's perspective. With regard to God's Power, I forgot about the supernatural abilities not drawing AoOs, so yeah, you have a point there. With Sacred Aura, I understand what you're saying, but if you're allowing divine metamagic, then while Sacred Aura isn't redundant, players can duplicate its effects at significantly lower levels. If you're not allow divine metamagic then yeah, it's broken. I guess it depends on your DM. With the changes you made and the arguments presented, I will change my rating to a 4.25/5. -- Jota 17:28, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Actually, sacred aura is quite a bit more powerful than divine metamagic for a two straightforward reasons: One, the class feature cannot be dispelled for more than three rounds, making it a short step away from being an etraordinary ability, and Two, the class feature makes a spell that has a range of 'personal' be capable of being cast at great range, far more in fact, than any feat would ever allow. Sacred aura is much more than simply a divine metamagicked persisted spell. → Rith ^(talk) 18:03, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5. I don't really like the opening sentence. It would probably be better read as two separate ideas. I don't think you really need that 'Though' toward the end of the intro paragraph. I also don't think you need to separate damnation with a comma in that last sentence (words of salvation or damnation) unless damnation is supposed to be a noun (a little confusing the way it is structured). I was going to go down through the whole thing, but there's a lot of fluff and I have other things to do shortly. In general, I think you get a little comma happy. Because of this, much of your writing might be a little clearer if you would use shorter sentences on occasion, rather than some of the multi-clause, comma-laden beasts you have in places (sort of like this sentence). There were a few spelling things that I noticed, too, although I can only tell you the few I noticed as I don't have time (at the moment) to fully dissect the fluff. One, I think Gods Power should be possessive. Two, impossbile. If you would like, I can just go through and make the grammatical changes myself (when I get back), and you could revert what you don't like. --Jota 14:41, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Well, I shall try and clarify some of the wording, but I simply write long sentences. Nothing is 'bad grammar' that relates to how many words there are, as long as the thought is clear, and I hope to think that you can understand what I'm saying throughout my works. Though, if you could just do some grammar edits, I would be very happy with you, I have no eye for those kinda things. (also, it's referring to the 'words of damnation', as the subject in that line) → Rith ^(talk) 16:10, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

For the most part I understand what you're saying, it just looks a little awkward to see it typed out. I'll make a few small changes, nothing that would significantly change anything. -- Jota 17:28, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's got everything. It follows the preload to the letter, has comprehensive inter-wiki linking, and even has an NPC to boot. --Jota 14:41, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because this strikes me as a wizard with a cleric spell list. Overall I like the feel of it, and the fluff is fantastic, but the fact that I'm not sure whether I'd ever play one over a cleric or a wizard detracts from it's niche a little bit. And yeah, I know flavor ≠ power, but in this case I think it has some bearing. --Jota 14:41, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Feel free to refute me if you see it a different way. -- Jota 14:41, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Well, the common argument is that flavor is a subjective value, and, therefore, only a 5 is acceptable, but, if you wanna give it a 4, then give it a 4. → Rith ^(talk) 16:10, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Yeah, it's subjective, but that's why multiple people can rate something. The minor power boosts make it a little more attractive, so I'll up this one to 4.5/5. -- Jota 17:28, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Actually, I just saw the lack of alignment restriction, and while I don't get it, that quirk will bump it to 5/5, along with the nice picture, hereto unmentioned. -- Jota 17:38, 15 July 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because over all this class seems weaker than other base classes. One big reason is that early on most healing spells are touch based, this got me killed some at early levels. The ability's are nice but some seem to just come to late. Finally this classes spell casting seems a bit under powered since they do not get the spells outright like a cleric. I think one way to fix this would be to move the AC ability to an earlier level with some limits on it,Also I feel like we should gain something for having to basically keep our spells in a spell book, possibly the ability to scribe some very restricted wizard spells that would have to be listed ahead of time so as to avoid real abuse. Things like Repair damage or other buff like spells. --Starcry 07:17, 25 November 2009 (MST)

Wording - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because The wording is almost perfect, I only find issue with the way the AC ability (divine fate) is phrased it sounds as if you can add the entire ability score and not the bonus to your ac, making for one heck of an ac score. --Starcry 07:17, 25 November 2009 (MST)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I see no reason to give anything but a 5 here --Starcry 07:17, 25 November 2009 (MST)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I LOVE the idea behind this class. First off in all religions there is a person or group of people that for whatever reason don't fit in. They may be hypocrites, or doing things like the witch trails, so it makes a great deal of sense to allow the alignments, I also love the way you choose the ability score because your very right in thinking that different people lead in different ways. You can picture the Wise old priest giving good advise, the charismatic young man speaking in a way to make anyone believe and even the preacher who very calmly tells you about the horrible things that will happen or good things that will happen using logic to appeal to you. GREAT idea and this class was a ton of fun to role play --Starcry 07:17, 25 November 2009 (MST)

to presererve its integrity as basically a divine wizard i tweaked it so there was rules against just taking a level in fighter so it gains armor use Ewokdruid 21:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Fixing

to presererve its integrity as basically a divine wizard i tweaked it so there was rules against just taking a level in fighter so it gains armor use Ewokdruid 21:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

This change isn't listed in the History (I assume because of database issues), however it is listed in Ewokdruid's 'contributions' (and I use that term as loosely as possibly.) (see history). As such, I'm going to remove his contributions to this article like the vandalism they are. Ichai 19:17, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not in the history of Bishop (3.5e Class) because for some reason the class features are transcluded from a subpage Bishop (3.5e Class)/Class Features, where Ewokdruid made the change. And, err, it's not vandalism, though I agree it should probably have been reverted. Let's try and be a little nicer to our fellow contributors, eh? JazzMan 20:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Bishop vs Cleric

The Bishop trades away the Cleric armor and weapon proficiencies, turn/rebuke undead ability, hit dice, and base attack bonus for the bonus feats of a Wizard and a few abilities. This trade is not very good, as it leaves a Bishop incredibly weak in melee (unlike a Cleric, who can hold their own). The ability to cast spells as supernatural abilities is good, but can be used to few times and is available to late to be a prime ability. A Bishop also has less spellcasting versatility than a cleric, due to the restriction of a Prayerbook. A Cleric also has access to two domains, where the Bishop has only one.

The Bishop should have the Divine Fate ability included in their Grace of God ability. This would increase their ability to survive at lower levels. Gods Power should take Divine Fate's place at 7th level, and go up in number of uses per day at 12th level and 18th level. This makes it available at lower levels, but keeps it from having to many uses per day, even at high levels. There should also be a class feature that lets a Bishop add an arcane spell of up to one level lower than the highest level they can cast to their Prayerbook at 3rd level and every three levels after. This makes the trade to a Prayerbook less of a disadvantage by allowing access to the power of arcane spells and increasing the number of spells available to the Bishop. An ability similar to the Monk's Tongue of the Sun and Moon ability should be placed at level 13. This keeps the pattern of abilities at every 6th level after first going, and adds to the perception of the Bishop as linked to the gods. Another change would be adding the Spontaneous Casting ability of Clerics. This allows the Bishop to not have to prepare healing spells, freeing up spell slots for buffing or damaging spells.

These changes would make the abilities more effective, compensate for the lack of melee capabilities with more spellcasting, and make the Bishop have a flavor that is different than that of a Cleric. <Enialis 19:26, 24 September 2011 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because that grace of god class feature is too powerful for a first level ability, combined with something like the luck domain makes this class a bit to valuable to dip into. --24.218.183.44 01:02, 26 November 2012 (MST)

Wording - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because many instances were missing the appropriate apostrophes. --24.218.183.44 01:02, 26 November 2012 (MST)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the only flaws were put the EX in the table --24.218.183.44 01:02, 26 November 2012 (MST)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it clearly fits its niche and is not redundant with any existing classes --24.218.183.44 01:02, 26 November 2012 (MST)