Talk:Archer (DnD Class)

What?

I have no idea what the "Range" ability does. And to be honest, it seems like a ranger that takes bow style or a fighter that puts his feats to bow-related stuff would be a much more effective archer than this one. Partial attack bonus? Ouch.

Fighter>Archer

I'm truly not entirely sure a class like this is a good idea. After all, the logical conclusion would be a axeman, swordsman, lancer, Knifer, Fencer, etc. class.

I believe that fighter works a lot better as a base class, and then the specialists would be better done as prestige classes (Which do exist currently)

Interpretivechaos 17:00, 17 February 2006 (MST)

Range ability is overpowered

Come on, a +7 bonus to attack and damage rolls at 20th lvl? You cant even get that by paying for a magic weapon. I changed this, as you can see. And I reworded some things to make it more understandable. I also added HD, something that's sort of important. This class isn't melee oriented, like the ranger can be, and mostly stands in the back, so I only gave it a d6. And I gave it 4+int modifier skill points cause I felt like it. I don't have time to choose class skills right now, but they're sort of important.

Alcalientre

The Creator's Report

Okay... I was planning this to be a base class... but should it be a prestige class instead? Also, now I feel that it's under powered... but... It seems like it needs more specials...

Zero Takenaka

A coupla suggestions

Firstly: Give it Full BAB. It's only logical, as this class' focus is battle. Only secondary fighters (like Rogues, Clerics, Bards etc.) should get 3/4 BAB, because they have some other meaningful stuff to work with, like spells, skills or both.

Secondly: Have you considered giving it something like the monk's Flurry of Blows?

Thirdly: Why any ranged attack on that Range+ ability? Isn't this an archer? Try any bow or crossbow, or this will result in extremely powerful axe-hurlers.

-Abu Dhabi

No... Not at all

Firstly: I agree.

Secondly: the monk's flurry of blows may or may not be applied to a bow.

Thirdly: ...

Lastly: FIX IT URSELF

Okay...

Heh. I wasn't aware random passerby are allowed to do edits...

There. How does that look?

...

It's okay I guess... Could you find/make more bonus feats to go on the list?

Questions for you to ask yourself

A character should be a mix of offensive, defensive, and penalty reducing abilities, with a few party contribution abilities as well. Abilities that should structurally belong to the character must be applied.

I want you to think about the following:

• Should this class get any perks while mounted?
• Should this class get a way to avoid AoO's while in melee?
• Should this class get a way to use the bow as a melee weapon if stuck in melee?
• Should this class gain Evasion (as most high-dex classes gain evasion)?
• Should the class gain a mechanism to overcome DR?
• Should the class gain Magic Weapon and Greater Magic weapon in their career? What about True Strike?
• All martial types gain Martial weapons. Should this class gain martial weapons?
• Medieval archers wore chain. Should you allow medium armor for your class?
• Should they gain the Track feat?
• Presumably, as a hunter, should he gain a few die of sneak attack damage?

The trick to making a good character class is to compare it other other classes again and again. If this class is only slightly better than a fighter-archer, a smart player will take the small hit on ability to take a big advantage in flexibility.

Answers

• Should this class get any perks while mounted?

Mounted Archery is one of the bonus feats. If the player goes along the mounter combat feat tree, he can get it for free, ie. faster.

• Should this class get a way to avoid AoO's while in melee?

Uh, probably not. With crossbows, maybe. With normal bows -- no way. Munchkin Moonwalk should be sufficient for avoiding AoOs.

• Should this class get a way to use the bow as a melee weapon if stuck in melee?

There's already a way. Improvised weaponry. -4 to-hit, but can use it in melee.

• Should this class gain Evasion (as most high-dex classes gain evasion)?

Now there's a good idea. At higher level, 10-15, it wouldn't probably be overpowering.

• Should the class gain a mechanism to overcome DR?

Cold Iron/Silver ammo is cheap. Adamantine isn't as much, but still. Aligning the arrows is just a matter of being friends with the party mage/priest. Or just getting a special ability on the bow.

• Should the class gain Magic Weapon and Greater Magic weapon in their career? What about True Strike?

This is an archer, not a caster. Why would they get Magic Weapon? As for True Strike, it has merit, sure, but so far I haven't seen any official classes sporting anything of the sort.

• All martial types gain Martial weapons. Should this class gain martial weapons?

If an archer needs to use a flail, something is terribly wrong. Self defense is all well and good, but that's what they have the simple weapon proficiency for. I guess giving them a shortsword proficiency wouldn't be bad, though.

• Medieval archers wore chain. Should you allow medium armor for your class?

A chainshirt is light armor. A mithral chainmail is, too. What I'm trying to prevent here is archers using breastplates an' such. Anyone in their right mind choose a breastplate over a chainmail, sice it's only a bit costlier, but sports better non-AC stats.

• Should they gain the Track feat?

Eh? That's the ranger you want.

• Presumably, as a hunter, should he gain a few die of sneak attack damage?

Not a hunter. A specialized back-row soldier. Not sure why you think archers are automatically sneak-attackers.

As to more bonus feats: I only took the basic SRD feats, there are bound to be more archer-type feats in CWar or CAdv. I could probably look them up.

I believe this class is better than a Fighter specialized in bowmanship. More skill points and more attacks. Doesn't get Weapon Specialization or Greater Weapon Focus, but that's offset by the bonus damage/attack.

-Abu Dhabi

Thanks for the answers

Thanks for the answers. On looking over the class, I am still concerned about flexibility.

I suggest tracking and sneak attack as many people automatically associate archers with hunting and sniping. These also provide the archer an in-class damage bump and another useful logical support function. I suggested the spell as the class will bump into magic amunition issue. I'm glad that you thought about that, already, so that may not be necessary.

I strongly believe that martial types should gain martial weapons. In D&D, melee is certain, even if the party plays correctly. A fighter-archer can fall back onto melee weapons and AC. A rogue archer can fall back onto flanking and sneak attack. Your archer class has very little to fall back onto. In real life, the archers did find themselves in melee. There's some good stories there, if you dig up the sources. English archers used to carry mallets to bang in stakes as protection. On getting attack by foot troops, they took out the mallets and drove back the enemy.

D&D is a team game. Where does this player fit in a four person team? He can't take a spellcasting slot. He can't take the tank slot. So he must fill the skill slot (ranger/rogue/bard) as well as those classes do. That takes more than doing more damage faster. That position takes a flexibility that the Archer does not have. Skill points are part of it. He should really have 6+INT skill points and a slightly wider array of skills. His weapon/armor selection should be closer to the ranger/rogue/bard range. Two of those three gain medium armor. The character doesn't have to wear medium armor, but it should available to the class. Two of those three classes gain spells. The class without spells gets the cumulative sneak-attack ability. I see no ability in this class worth those spells or that sneak attack. If you disagree with everything else, I want you to think about that one.

Oi...

I agree with every thing but...

A. I keep thinking of the Arcane Archer. B. I have a thing with wanting to add a special ability

Hmmm.

"I strongly believe that martial types should gain martial weapons. In D&D, melee is certain, even if the party plays correctly. A fighter-archer can fall back onto melee weapons and AC. A rogue archer can fall back onto flanking and sneak attack. Your archer class has very little to fall back onto. In real life, the archers did find themselves in melee. There's some good stories there, if you dig up the sources. English archers used to carry mallets to bang in stakes as protection. On getting attack by foot troops, they took out the mallets and drove back the enemy."

Aye, point taken.

"D&D is a team game. Where does this player fit in a four person team? He can't take a spellcasting slot. He can't take the tank slot. So he must fill the skill slot (ranger/rogue/bard) as well as those classes do. That takes more than doing more damage faster. That position takes a flexibility that the Archer does not have. Skill points are part of it. He should really have 6+INT skill points and a slightly wider array of skills. His weapon/armor selection should be closer to the ranger/rogue/bard range. Two of those three gain medium armor. The character doesn't have to wear medium armor, but it should available to the class. Two of those three classes gain spells. The class without spells gets the cumulative sneak-attack ability. I see no ability in this class worth those spells or that sneak attack. If you disagree with everything else, I want you to think about that one. "

You have a point here, too. A tertiary casting ability with support/buff spells would fit here pretty nicely. I see no reason not to include such spells as Cat's Grace or True Strike, these would help archers muchly. This would probably be arcane casting, too (don't really see a reason to make archers worship something), with maybe armored casting.

As to sniping, I feel that should be incorporated in a Prestige Class, not a base one. But still, perhaps an ability to deal extra damage to unsuspecting foes would be prudent. Like, say, flat-footed foes the archer hits receive his archer level in extra damage per hit. Sort of like a cross between Sudden Strike and Smite.

Also, I've added some feats to the bonus feat list that I found in the CWar.

-Abu Dhabi

Spells

Here's what I think the spell list should be:

1: Magic Weapon, Expeditious Retreat, True Strike, Endure Elements, Longstrider

2: Protection from Arrows, See Invisibility, Invisibility, Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, Blur

3: Heroism, Flame Arrow, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Blink, Haste

4: Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice

Spells per day should be identical to the ranger, caster level is half class level, spellcasting type is arcane and preparatory. Light armor casting (includes buckler).

Thoughts?

Response

I'd think that the spell list be larger but it has full BAB bonus. But bard has about the same thing.

Right

I'll make the changes when I have the time. Probably tomorrow.

-Abu Dhabi

Now we're talking.

The class has some meat on it's bones now. Let's get to comparing it to similiar existing classes. The two I think are most similiar are the Rogue and the Ranger. I think it would be fairest to compare these at low-, mid- and high-level... Let's say 5th, 12th and 20th.

But a few overall qualities first.

Alignment: None have any restriction.

HD: The ranger has the highest of the three, d8, the rogue and archer have d6s. It's not a really great advantage, but still.

BAB: Ranger and archer win here with 1/1 BAB, the rogue has 3/4. BAB is very important. The rogue can possibly make up for some of it with stealth, but still...

Skills: Rogue is best with the most class skills and most skill points. Ranger is a moderately close second and the archer is quite a ways behind, with few class skills, though making some of it up with the amount of skill points. Not to mention that rogue can get the nifty ability to take 10 with his skill checks.

Saves: Ranger has two good saves, the rogue has one, they both get evasion at some point. The archer has only one good save and no evasion at this point (though it has been suggested, we will see after the comparing).

Spellcasting: The ranger and archer get tertiary spellcasting. It remains to tested who has the better spell selection. The rogue does not get spellcasting, though he has the Use Magical Device class skill that can get really useful when combined with that ability to take 10.

Special Abilities: The rogue's primary special ability is the sneak attack, which is deadly. Uncanny dodge and Evasion are also very useful. Trap sense is, IMO, the least useful. The rogue special abilities are also nifty, if one is clever with the choices. Trapfinding is neccessary for almost any party.

Rangers get special abilities centered mainly on the wild. Their stealth and tracking can get really useful in the right circumstances and evasion is always well-seen. Combat styles are nice, too. The favored enemy, although it may seem first-line, isn't all that good, unless you are lucky or get a whiff what the DM has in store for you.

An archer's special abilities pertain his bowmanship, increasing his range, damage and rate of fire considerably. The bonus feats are quite nice. However there is speculation as to the flexibility of the class, which has been duly noted. We shall find out if this is the case.

---

Alright, time for the builds. I'll be working with a 16,18,14,14,12,10 set of stats, arranged as I deem it most effective in each case and class. These build will be bow-using ones only, which is only logical.

~5th~

Rogue: The rogue can strike out with a +8 attack modifier, using Rapid Shot (has to be selected through normal feats), a double +6, dealing 1d6+4 with a +1 composite shortbow, possibly +3d6 sneak attack per hit on an unsuspecting target.

The average HP for him would be 20 + Con*5, with my stats - 30 HP. A little low for going near the front lines.

The skills help greatly, especially the trap-handling, item-stealing and sneaking-around ones.

Ranger: A bow-using ranger is a better shot than the rogue, with +10 normally and +8 twice using Rapid Shot (Combat Style), dealing 1d8+4 with a +1 composite longbow, +2 or +4 if he stumbles upon a favored enemy. No sneak attack, though. The animal companion may help here, providing flanking bonuses.

The average HP for a 5th level ranger would be 26 + Con*5, with my stats - 36 HP. Not much better than the rogue, but able to stand a hit more. If he chooses Diehard (Endurance is granted via bonus feat), it's even better, since he can heal himself up with a spell quickly when he is dropped to negatives.

The skills are primarily used for skulking around the wilderness and tracking things down. Not universally useful, however.

Archer: With two bonus feats, a 10 ft. bonus to range, and +1 to hit and damage, the archer seems worse off than the ranger and the rogue. If those feats were to be Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot, he'd get a total +2 to hit and damage within 30 feet, and two attacks (+12 within 30 feet and single-shot, +10 two times within 30 feet). A little better accuracy, doing 1d8+6 per hit with a composite longbow within 30 feet. However, that one True Strike he can do could be a decisive thing.

The archer's HP would be same as the rogue's. Definetally not a front-line fighter.

The archer's skills can't really stand up to the ranger's and definetally not the rogue's. Mostly utility, not much advantage in combat.

---

More will come. I need to get some more sleep.

Feel free to comment and throw some insults if I'm being unreasonable somewhere. ;)

-Abu Dhabi

Delete?

So, ZeroTakenaka asked me to delete this, would someone else like to keep it going (it seems a lot of people are trying to improve it...)? ZeroTakenaka asked me by way of the Category:Candidates for Deletion. --Green Dragon 14:42, 18 March 2006 (MST)

Reason for Deletion

It seems like a lot of people think this is a stupid class but... I think it would be a good PrC than a Core Class

-ZeroTakenaka, Owner and Founder of the Time Space Dimension Association (TSDA)

>_>

i would never have guessed that the Archer would have a talk page...(sarcasm) --Jack Bread 21:32, 18 July 2008 (MDT)