Talk:Aquamancer (5e Class)

Why I made this class

Just wanted to discuss this briefly - I'm open to suggestions for radical changes to this class, but only as long as they adhere to my central need here.

Basically, I'm planning a campaign in a setting that doesn't have a whole lot of natural water, where that's the only obstacle to a larger population forming, and where the people are by and large deeply religious. Obviously there are clerics, and they can cast Create or Destroy Water, but in this case the need would be too great for the number of Clerics, especially when they can only create 20 gallons of water out the gate. I wanted a class that could provide a lot more as early as level 1, and I liked the idea of these people's god giving a small handful of people the very simple but important task of generating the necessary water.

That sort of gave rise to the Spellspring idea. As for the rest, all the base fullcaster classes are widely varying powers coming from the same source. I wanted to toy with the design space of a specific set of powers coming from vastly different places, and I felt like this would be one of the most sensible places for that concept. Water is important enough and evocative enough that its magic can be accessed from these opposing fronts.

Anyway, those are just my basic thoughts behind this class. I'm very much open to constructive criticism - I want to get this class right! Ctenochaetus (talk) 02:13, 12 September 2018 (MDT)

I have an island nation with a similar issue. They lack earthly resources likes metals and such, so the main form of magic there is transmutation and then have them get their resources by means of transmutation as well as exploiting trading with another smaller nation rich with such resources but too underdeveloped to get them. Besides just removing the salt from seawater, you could have a god grant a blessing that allows the free casting of create or destroy water or even just the ability to convert sea water into fresh water but I digress. —ConcealedLight (talk) 07:02, 16 September 2018 (MDT)

Anyways, as I mentioned on my talk page I've done a look through of the class. I have the following suggestions besides the ones given on my talk page:

• Spellspring points should be incorporated into the class table and be a linear progression like sorcery points
• Rapid Inlet should probs be worded like so, and grant breathing underwater, "You gain a swimming speed equal to twice your current speed and you can breath both air and water."
• The cohort is a bit iffy atm, the wording needs to be improved for telepathy since telepathic isn't a 5th edition term. You should be able to use your cohort like your familiar from the find familiar spell. In particular, seeing through its eyes and naturally without the "You cannot attack with this familiar" restriction. At a higher level, instead of granting spells to it(because you already get bonus spellcasting for the class), you could allow the casting of spells through your cohort with some limitations. Maybe moving from cantrips only, to 1st level spells, etc, up to 5th level maybe.
• Divine Cascade grants more spells - this is getting a bit out of hand - and the wording is funky. I think for this subclass, nerf Planar Renewer down, make it an aura effect(enter 10 foot around me and get watered) and grant it at 3rd level with a scaling improvement like the dragonborn's breath weapon, then at 10th level improve it by upping the area range and maybe adding an additional effect like a 10ft slow. Torrential potential is also really strong maybe too strong.
• Natural Confluence: darkvision is given in increments of 60 feet and most races have it, so having it grant or increase darkvision by 60 is better. Spell doubling should probs be a short rest or maybe you could even link it to the spellspring points, like doubling the casting cost to manifest one of the following effects. Aquatic soul gives a lot of resistances and benefits, instead of doing so how about making it a transformative ability, granting them few passive benefits like not requiring food/drink but allowing them to, as a bonus action, transform into basically a water elemental, granting them such resistances and other abilities the water elemental has.
• Scholar's Geyser: Study sidekick should be more linear in its progression or have statistics based on their aquamancers abilities, such as granting bonus based on their level or maybe Charisma. Moat of Arcana, maybe make it a reaction to do so but then lessen the number of times you can do so.

Other then what I've said above, the 5e Class Design Guide, When to Italicize and Capitalize and the 5e Race Design Guide's section on referencing should be looked over since there are {{wording}} errors throughout, like "once per day", missings references, and links to external sites rather than using the "<ref>" tag detailed in the guide. —ConcealedLight (talk) 07:02, 16 September 2018 (MDT)

Woof, this kind of fell by the wayside for a while. I figured I'd go ahead and check in with you now - other than the Spellsprings, for every feature you've suggested a change to, I either implemented your suggestion or made a big change that I thought was a good middle ground. I'll briefly go into a few of the calls I made:

• I didn't go for Planar Renewer as a 3rd level feature, since flavorful but potentially narrow features like that one are usually saved for the midgame. I changed it to an aura effect similar to what paladins have, and I replaced Sacred Celebrant with a different support-oriented ability.
• I made the cohort pretty radically different. I was thinking of Warlocks, and how in addition to fullcasting they have the pact boon and a big serving of eldritch invocations. The spellspring and cohort are the big features given to the aquamancer class, so I wanted to make the cohort pop quite a bit more. It's possible I overdid it, but this is a direction I feel a lot happier with than the cantrips at 4th and 10th level.
• Scholar's Geyser got a different defensive ability at level 3, lifted from the School of Abjuration wizard subclass. I managed to make this one the sturdiest aquamancer subclass, ironically enough.

Anyway, I'm working on how I want the spellsprings to look now. I'm really happy with the subclasses as they are now (other than NC's Extra Spellspring, of course), so I'll be checking for formatting/capitalization/etc errors and giving a really critical eye to those three central class features, and then I think the class will be ready for action.

Thanks again for your help! Even where I didn't take your suggestions, you got my wheels turning in the right direction, so I do appreciate the suggestions and how carefully you thought about everything. Ctenochaetus (talk) 03:52, 21 October 2018 (MDT)

Thoughts

I think a lot necessary changes have already been made. I don't see or feel like anything is really troubling. There are a couple features that are really new in my opinion but overall the class mostly allows a player to decide between an aquatic divine, sorcerer, or wizard. I'd play this as is and see how it goes. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 21:58, 1 November 2018 (MDT)

Lash of Water: Attack roll vs. saving throw, melee vs. ranged

I'm starting this discussion because the Lash of Water ability was recently changed from a melee attack roll to an ability that forces the target to make a saving throw. I am reversing this change, which I understand can be seen as against the nature of having this class on a wiki where anyone can edit. So here is my defense for keeping it as an attack roll.

• Damage balancing: This is a spell ability that does not require preparation, and that scales up well, so balancing against the advantages is important - in this case, a balancing factor is that a melee attack roll doesn't do half damage if it misses.
• Target balancing: A melee attack roll imposes disadvantage on the attacker if the target has half cover, if the user is blinded, etc. I believe, in this case, it's a necessary way to keep the ability from becoming too overpowered.
• Flavor: As a melee attack roll, a player gets the sense that the aquamancer is striking at a target with water as if they were attacking with a sword or their own fists.

And anticipating the possible suggestion of making it a ranged attack roll, here's my defense of keeping it as melee instead of ranged:

• Minimum range issue: The aquamancer should be able to target a creature 5ft away without disadvantage.
• Prone target issue: The aquamancer should have advantage, rather than disadvantage, against a prone target.
• Flavor: Again, the idea is that the lash of water is an extension of the aquamancer's body. A melee attack roll is much better suited for this than a ranged attack roll.

I welcome all discussion and will accept a change to this ability if enough people think it should be different and/or if a convincing argument is made on this discussion page, but the melee spell attack roll was a very deliberate decision when I made this ability, so I'm going to insist that this be discussed before this element in particular of the class is changed.

--Ctenochaetus (talk) 22:41, 17 June 2019 (MDT)

Aquatic Soul question

I do like the change of how it became a transforming ability, but what if you're already playing as a Large creature? Do you just not change, or do you still grow one size? --Camberp01 (talk)

If a DM would let you grow one size when playing as a Large character, power to them, but the way I see it, the character is using a certain connection to elemental magic to take on a watery form, and the physical form induced by that connection is inherently a specific size. Thanks for asking, though! --Ctenochaetus (talk) 15:40, 13 October 2024 (MDT)