Talk:Airelong (5e Creature)

The Beginning Of This

Hi! I made a dragon monster. Because i had a cool idea and we can never have enough dragons.

I need to figure out how to place pictures though... It doesn't seem like i could upload one... But maby i didn't see it yet.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 20:11, 8 September 2019 (MDT)

You can add a picture through the 5e image template found under |description.

Remember to provide a link and info to who created the image too and you can also use DnD_Links#Images for a few good image hosting sites that show who created an image.

Blobby383b (talk) 20:26, 8 September 2019 (MDT)

I do have an own picture, but I need to define it more, because it is only a pencil sketch.

And I need to upload it to DA than.

Also, how balanced, or better how unbalanced is my dragon?

I oriented my self on the wyvern and the young blue dragon.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 10:19, 9 September 2019 (MDT)

If you are creating an image, you could upload the file onto the wiki at Special:Upload or you can upload it to DeviantArt and link to it from here, it is your choice.

Balance wise the dragon is weak for a CR 9 creature as it has low damage output/survivability for that CR. If you have the DMG, you can find info on average stats of creatures on pp 274, plus you can find general info on monsters in the first few pages of the MM or another quick way to check the relative power of creatures is to see what the AC, HP, and average damage output of an average CR 9 creature is over on 5e_SRD:Monsters#CR_9.

Either way, let's get into the creature. The 1st thing to note is that a creature's hit die is determined by its size and a Large creature's hit die is a d10.

Next, this creatures saving throws and skills do to align with its proficiency bonus for its CR(+4). If the creature is proficient in a skill or saving throw, the skill/saving throw should be 4 more than the ability score used with that skill/saving throw.

After that, I see that the creature is vulnerable to bludgeoning damage and resistant to slashing damage. Is there a reason for this in the lore(having soft tissue under the skin or something else?)

Although the Airelong isn't too smart, how does it understanding instead of speaking a few languages like Draconic or Common sound?

Battle Rage doesn't state when the creature enters into a Battle Rage.

Next, Battle Cry's save DC is far too low and needs to be increased a decent amount(to around 13), plus Wisdom is typically associated with saving from being frightened. Battle Rage Battle Cry saving throw is too low as well(15/16 should be good), and having a separate duration for being frightened when your closer as it is a bit confusing when everyone is affected by the power but the players are affected differently depending on where they are (also durations in 5e are standardized to 1 round, 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day).

As for the Deafened part of Battle Rage Battle Cry, I would make it so creatures within X range are automatically deafened until the start of their next turn so players don't have to make two saving throws from the same ability and deafend is a very minor condition.

Claws look pretty good, though they could perhaps to a tiny bit more damage and I would also bump up the to hit number to +7 as the creature has +3 strength mod and a +4 proficiency bonus

Lightning Breath's base ability looks good, though I am again unsure that it is good for the breath in Battle Rage to have two separate effects, ranges, and saving throws. To make things much simpler, you could make the Paralyzing Breath be a separate 30 foot cone breath that is only usable when the Airelong is Battle Raged. Your thoughts on the idea?

Finally, the description of the creature seems very detailed and well thought out good job. I again may have missed some things while going through the creature, but I hope that you can make use out of all this advice. Good luck on the creature Websurfer1111.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:21, 9 September 2019 (MDT)

Thanks for the tips, Bloody383b! I was actualy worried that it was too strong as it is now XD.

I will try to upload the pic to the wiki directly when it's done.

I have an almost finished first impression of my dragon, just to digitalise it for the beginning, so that I have an orientation for the actual thing later.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 14:58, 9 September 2019 (MDT)

Hello!

I Uploaded a picture of my dragon.

And I made a MULTIATTACK_Average_Tabel with the data of the eight 5eSRD_CR9_Monsters:

Monster	AC	HP	HP-Dice (Max)	Sice	d20-Attackroll	Hit Max-output	Damage-Dice Max-output
Bone_Devil	19	142	201 = 15d10+60	large	+8	29	44 = 2*(1d8+4)+2d8+4
Clay Golem	14	133	196 = 14d10+56	large	+8	32	50 = 2*(2d10+5)
Cloud Giant	14	200	288 = 16d12+96	huge	+12	42	64 = 2*(3d8+8)
Fire Giant	18	162	234 = 13d12+78	huge	+11	56	86 = 2*(6d6+7)
Glabrezu	17	157	225 = 15d10+75	large	+9	46	70 = 2*(2d10+5)+2*(2d4+2)
Treant	16	138	204 = 12d12+60	huge	+10	32	48 = 2*(3d6*8)
Young Blue Dragon	18	152	224 = 16d10+64	large	+9	45	69 = 2*(2d6+5)+2d10+5+1d10
Young Silver Dragon	18	168	240 = 16d10+80	large	+10	43	62 = 2*(2d6+6)+2d10+6
----	----	----	----	----	----	----	----
Average	16,75	156,5	226,5	>large	+9,625	40,625	61,625
Min	14	133	196 = 14d10+56	large	+8	29	44 = 2*(1d8+4)+2d8+4
Max	19	200	288 = 16d12+96	huge	+12	56	86 = 2*(6d6+7)
----	----	----	----	----	----	----	----
Airelong (v0.3)	15	169	203 = 18d10+23	large	+6	26	52 = 2*(2d12+2)
Airelong (v0.4)	17	169	233 = 16d10+73	large	+8	38	58 = 2*(2d12+5)
Airelong (v0.5)	17	169	233 = 16d10+73	large	+8	36	54 = 3*(2d6+6)

Airelong (v0.3) enraged MAX damage output: 39 + 0 = 39 hit | 90 = 3*(2d12+2)+3*1d4, but suffers 2 HP reckless-damage per hit.

Airelong (v0.4) enraged MAX damage output: 57 + 12 = 69 hit | 105 = 3*(2d12+5)+3*1d6, but suffers 1 HP reckless-damage per hit.

Airelong (v0.5) enraged MAX damage output: 36 + 12 = 48 hit | 72 = 3*(2d6+6) +3*1d6, but suffers 1 HP reckless-damage per hit.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 18:56, 10 September 2019 (MDT)

Added airelong 0.4 to the tabel.

As to see, I changed a few things on the damage output.

I restructured the flavour text in the description and added new stuff to flash out an airelong's behaviour patterns.

Added Fly to the actions.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

That is a great picture you made there, it reminds me of Eastern dragons which are long and skinny. Your recent edits to this creature have also improved it a lot, though there are a few final few things that could be fixed though.

I see that the creature still has non-standard durations on several of its features(durations should be changed to be one of standard durations I stated above as durations have been standardized in 5e so they don't require DM's/players to have to keep track of how long it has been since X, Y, and Z abilities has been used, as keeping track of them requires a ton of work).

The deafened condition on Battle Cry/Rage Cry, even though the condition is minor, lasts too long and the effect occurs in too wide of an area. You could also reduce the range of the effect by a lot(10ft) and leave it at a long duration(1/10 minutes) or make it a large area(60 feet) with a short duration(1 round).

Finally, the paralyzed condition is extremely strong, and as such the Battle Rage's Lightning Breath paralyzing effect shouldn't last for more than a single round.

Besides that though, the creature is looking really good and besides some grammar and other minor errors that needs fixing, I don't spot anything else that needs to be done. Good job so far.--Blobby383b (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

Hello Bloddy!

I still need to do the airelongs saving throws right.

I tryed to eliminate the non-standard durations. But I guess I made it worse. I replaced a bunch of "turns" with "rounds" or minutes.

Will do the deafening effect and the paralyzing effect.

An other thing that I worry about is, if I made my dragon to strong. Outside of RAGE it seams to be OK-ish, but in a rage the Damage Output almost dobbles from 38 to 69 HIT // 58 to 105 DICE MAX.

Durations in 5e are standardized to:

1 creature's turn (no duration given!)

1 round, wehn all creatures made their turns (~6 seconds)

1 minute (~10 rounds)

10 minutes

1 hour

1 day

I guess your answere was, when I still edited something. I can't find anything that is not at least using 1 round as a duration.

Or did you mean I should use 1 minutes as standard, instead of rounds?

Websurfer1111 (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

If the dragon's damage output is too high with 3 attacks in Battle Rage(which it looks like it is),

it can always be changed so that the dragon only makes 2 attacks during battle rage

or you could make the attacks do a lot less damage and make the dragon have more attacks

(example: 3 attacks non-raging that deal 12 (2d6+5 damage) and during rage it makes 4 attacks that deal the same amount of damage).

As for the duration of the creature's feature's, just try to stick to using the standard durations, but it seems like you have it more figured, so no worries.

Blobby383b (talk) 16:30, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

I took your damage idea and made HIT: 12 (2d6 + 6) out of it.👌

It is nice between the min and max, but I had to get rid of the 4th attack in rage mode, if I want to keep the piercing damage in rage mode.

I guess it is enough of a gimmick for my dragon now.😄

Maybe I have to go back to +5 instead of +6 in the damage roll, though it is still under the max in the table. 🤔

But it is definitely way better than the overkill befor.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 17:39, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

Oh jeah btw, the +numbers for the saving throws and the skills seem to be consisting out of the +4 and the required trait-modifiers.

I think I missed an edit from someone, correcting this.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 18:01, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

I recalculated the length of my dragons claws.

The arm of my dragon is on my screen around 6.5cm (65mm) long (shoulder to middle-hand) and the claw on the middlefinger is around 1 cm (10mm) long.

100% / 6.5cm * 1cm = 15.4%

So the claw has 15.4% of the arms length. And because I wrote that the shoulder hight is 7 ft, it translated to 2133.6mm.

2133mm * 0.154 = 328mm

Which translates to around 12.9 Inch

My dragon has around 12 inch long claws. 😬 Because picture and math.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 18:29, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

Made some more edits and restructures.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 13:15, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

A spelling correction has happend, with the help of a friend.

Friend says my dragon is OP, for what it is meant to be.

He got a CR of 14 to 16 on CR-Calculator.

Can't recreate it anymore. I fear that I enter something wrong: I get CR 9 or 10 now.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 18:11, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

Damage per round is calculated based on average damage not max damage.

The average damage of the creature without battlerage is 39(3 times 13 avg damage for claws) and 51 while in Battle Rage.

As for the CR calculator, it doesn't take into effect that the creature has a breath weapon or other features, and is generally more useful when dealing with much simpler creatures.

--Blobby383b (talk) 12:17, 13 September 2019 (MDT)

I can't determine if my dragon is OP

Hi Bloody383b! Is there a methode to calculate the CR for a monster like mine? I have no idea how to do that and all my values were based on guessing so far. I wonder if I have to make a test run... Oh by the way! Is the CR for one Character or for a group of 4 peolpe against the monster? I think it is for the 4 people group, but I'm not sure. Websurfer1111 (talk) 13:01, 13 September 2019 (MDT)

You can not super accurately calculate the CR of a creature that has multiple different powerful/unique features, as there is guess work involved in how much those features help the creature's CR. A CR calculator may help a bit in determining CR, but it doesn't show us the full picture either.

As for CR, it could be used as a soft cap for the hardest singular monster a party of 4 could handle(so a party of level 9 adventures are expected to handle a single CR 9 creature, sometimes with difficulty).--Blobby383b (talk) 18:04, 13 September 2019 (MDT)

I removed the WIP-label

I guess it's done. There is nothing I can think off adding to my dragon species.

I removed the 5e Creature Design Guide and the WIP in the heading.

Websurfer1111 (talk) 05:39, 8 October 2019 (MDT)

I re-did the stats-table for comparison purposes.

Monster	AC	HP	HP-Dice (Max)	Sice	d20-Attackroll	Hit Max-output	Damage-Dice Max-output
Bone_Devil	19	142	201 = 15d10+60	large	+8	29	44 = 2*(1d8+4)+2d8+4
Clay Golem	14	133	196 = 14d10+56	large	+8	32	50 = 2*(2d10+5)
Cloud Giant	14	200	288 = 16d12+96	huge	+12	42	64 = 2*(3d8+8)
Fire Giant	18	162	234 = 13d12+78	huge	+11	56	86 = 2*(6d6+7)
Glabrezu	17	157	225 = 15d10+75	large	+9	46	70 = 2*(2d10+5)+2*(2d4+2)
Treant	16	138	204 = 12d12+60	huge	+10	32	48 = 2*(3d6*8)
Young Blue Dragon	18	152	224 = 16d10+64	large	+9	45	69 = 2*(2d6+5)+2d10+5+1d10
Young Silver Dragon	18	168	240 = 16d10+80	large	+10	43	62 = 2*(2d6+6)+2d10+6
----	----	----	----	----	----	----	----
Average	16,75	156,5	226,5	>large	+9,625	40,625	61,625
Min	14	133	196 = 14d10+56	large	+8	29	44 = 2*(1d8+4)+2d8+4
Max	19	200	288 = 16d12+96	huge	+12	56	86 = 2*(6d6+7)
----	----	----	----	----	----	----	----
Airelong (v0.3)	15	169	203 = 18d10+23	large	+6	26	52 = 2*(2d12+2)
Airelong (v0.4)	17	169	233 = 16d10+73	large	+8	38	58 = 2*(2d12+5)
Airelong (v0.5)	17	169	233 = 16d10+73	large	+8	36	54 = 3*(2d6+6)
Airelong (v1.5)	17	153	234 = 18d10+54	large	+8	39	54 = 3*(2d6+6)

Airelong (v0.3) enraged MAX damage output: 39 + 0 = 39 hit | 90 = 3*(2d12+2)+3*1d4, but suffers 2 HP reckless-damage per hit.

Airelong (v0.4) enraged MAX damage output: 57 + 12 = 69 hit | 105 = 3*(2d12+5)+3*1d6, but suffers 1 HP reckless-damage per hit.

Airelong (v0.5) enraged MAX damage output: 36 + 12 = 48 hit | 72 = 3*(2d6+6) +3*1d6, but suffers 1 HP reckless-damage per hit.

Airelong (v1.5) enraged MAX damage output: 39 + 12 = 51 hit | 72 = 3*(3d6+6), but suffers 2 HP reckless-damage on an uneven d6 result.