Discussion:What kind of abilities should a Ninja Have in D&D 5e?

What kind of abilities should a Ninja Have in D&D 5e?

Azernath (talk) 22:49, 7 July 2016 (MDT)

I am planning to a Ninja class for the D&D 5e. Any ideas of abilities they should have?

Please avoid abilities from Naruto unless they are really common. :)

--Kydo (talk) 06:03, 14 July 2016 (MDT)

1. Are we talking realistic or fantasy? Given your comment on Naruto, I'm guessing realistic, but maybe you just (rightfully) hate Naruto.

2. You can currently make very ninja-ie characters using core rules content. Both rogues and monks can make excellent ninja. A full ninja class will face competition from both of them, so you'll need to out-ninja both classes without losing balance. That seems a tall order to me, considering just how ninja a way of shadow monk is! Simply mixing the most ninja-like traits of the two classes won't be enough either, because anyone can do that via cross-classing.

3. What kind of unique, thematic mechanic could be used to differentiate the ninja from all other classes?

4. Maybe look at other content that jells well with the theme here. Backgrounds like the spy and assassin, for example, might give you some good ideas, as those would likely get paired with this class. Eastern weapons people have added to the wiki might also be an interesting place to start.

5. Go research the shinobi ("ninja") and their martial art, ninjutsu. The wikipedia pages on those two subjects alone have HEAPS of useful, idea-sparking material!

Azernath (talk) 12:50, 14 July 2016 (MDT)

Let me tell you what I did with the character thus far:

1. I like Naruto, it is just if I started adding powers from their, it will go ridicules before you can say sharingan.
2. The ninja I am going for is a Ki based ninja which means that it will still has somewhat magical abilities, yet they mainly focuses on either making him more agile or help in combat.
3. I did researched the shinobi from the Edo era; however, my main inspiration Genji from Overwatch due to the fact that he is using more science than magic while fighting.
4. I did mixed the monk and the rouge abilities giving Sneak Attack, Unarmored Defense, Ki, and a new feature called Shinobi Tricks similar to pathfinder.

--Kydo (talk) 16:36, 14 July 2016 (MDT)

OK, so... it's just a monk with sneak attack then?

--Kydo (talk) 02:51, 15 July 2016 (MDT)

I mean, no offense, I just think that's a little shallow. Here's a list of suggestions based on what I'd do.

1. Try to make a ninja using the monk and rogue classes. Try to be as ninja as possble in the build using core rules. Test play them out to, eh, level 5 for so. While you play, note what makes each class feel like a ninja. Also not what ruins the experience. I have already done this.

• The rogue is very thiefy-scouty, no matter how hard you aim for that assassin-of-the-night style.
• Meanwhile, the monk tends to be rather flamboyant and extravagant, with high-flying, active, energetic, and excessive actions.

Ninja are supposed to be subtle, careful, cautious, precise, and fast. In both cases, if you want to feel the ninja-ness, you basically wind up choosing to not use a portion of your features, effectively handicapping yourself for roleplay. THIS is the reason why a full ninja class would be desired, rather than a ninja archetype or background.

2. Sneak attack is the rogue's special class feature. You should not give it to other classes. Likewise, Ki and martial arts are the monk's special class features, and again you should not give those to other classes.

3. Ninja are...

• a covert agent or mercenary Right away, we have material that could be used to make archetypes.'
• espionage, sabotage, infiltration, assassination and guerrilla warfare The class features need to empower PCs to do, and focus on, each of these things.
• covert methods ... irregular warfare ... "dishonorable" and "beneath" [those] who observed strict rules about honor and combat It should be noted that dishonorable does not necessarily mean cowardly- it takes kajones to strut into an imperial palace with the intent of assassinating the monarch.
• a specially trained group of spies and mercenaries We have backgrounds named after those things. Maybe the class page should link to them?
• the ninja faded into obscurity nice flavor-writing material
• manuals, often based on Chinese military philosophy more nifty flavor material. Maybe we could include these manuals as like unique fighting styles for ninja?
• the tradition of the shinobi had become a topic of popular imagination and mystery ... Ninja figured prominently in folklore and legend and it is often difficult to separate fact from myth. Awesome! More flavor material! Maybe give them something that lets them spread- and take advantage of- ninja rumors? Could also look up the myths themselves and incorporate that material as class features for a "magic ninja" archetype.
• Some legendary abilities [...] include invisibility, walking on water and control over the natural elements totally gotta include that magic ninja archetype.
• shinobi (忍) means "to steal away; to hide" and — by extension — "to forbear", hence its association with stealth and invisibility. Mono (者) means "a person". cool flavor material.
• monomi ("one who sees"), nokizaru ("macaque on the roof"), rappa ("ruffian"), kusa ("grass") and Iga-mono ("one from Iga"). a few more names and words we can use!
• Kunoichi, meaning a female ninja didn't know that!
• historical accounts of the ninja are scarce Nice. mysterious.
• the ninja were mostly recruited from the lower class, and therefore little literary interest was taken in them Ok, so some ninja were recruited into the families. They weren't all blood-born.
• ninja were trained to be particularly secretive about their actions and existence need to include exploration features that help them to erase evidence of themselves, and mask their presence.
• the aims of ensuring that one's opponent does not know of one's existence, and for which there was special training Again that special training thing. we should focus on that- these aren't just gifted or talented people, they're trained professionals.
• credited the destruction of a castle by fire to an unnamed but "highly skilled shinobi". This needs to be possible.
• spies, raiders, arsonists and even terrorists more things the class should empower the PC to do.
• men willing to commit deeds considered disreputable for conventional warriors Their combat features need to somehow turn the normal combat rules on their head- they need to work in a way that no other combattant would think of.
• spy (kanchō), scout (teisatsu), surprise attacker (kishu), and agitator (konran Cool. we now have names for some features or archetyopes!
• The ninja families were organized into larger guilds, each with their own territories. A system of rank existed. A jōnin ("upper man") was the highest rank, representing the group and hiring out mercenaries. This is followed by the chūnin ("middle man"), assistants to the jōnin. At the bottom was the genin ("lower man"), field agents drawn from the lower class and assigned to carry out actual missions. We could use this material to create a shinobi faction- we already have the top two and bottom rank names!
• villages devoted to the training of ninja awesome flavor material.
• The remoteness and inaccessibility of the surrounding mountains may have had a role in the ninja's secretive development more flavor material.
• There was a retainer of the family of Kawai Aki-no-kami of Iga, of pre-eminent skill in shinobi, and consequently for generations the name of people from Iga became established. Another tradition grew in Kōga So, in real life, there were two families- blood-clans- who propigated the shinobi traditions, and they have two distinct ways of operating. Stripping it of historical references, this could justify the agent and mercenary archetypes I suggested at the start. They are two different clan-based styles. It should also be noted that the Iga clan seems to be far more notorious, while the Koga clan is far less discussed. This implies that one of the traditions was superior in some way.
• oniwaban, an intelligence agency and secret service. Members of this office, the oniwaban ("garden keeper"), were agents involved in collecting information on daimyos and government officials

4. We want to discourage non-ninja behavior, so we don't want this class to accidentally be capable of being a tanky lead-combattant. A good start to that is to give them a low HD. 1d6 seems the lowest, so we'll go waith that. A player could still build for CON and HP using a dwarf, but it won't work as well as the same kind of optimization would for, say, a barbarian. This will discourage them from engaging in headlong attacks unless they're certain they have an advantage.

5. For skill proficiencies, we obviously want to give them skills that will help them be evasive, secretive, and sneaky. I'd suggest acrobatics, stealth, sleight of hand, and deception at least. Athletics could also be added to the list, helping them climb walls and stuff, as could persuasion, helping them manipulate people without necessarily lying. Another suggestion might be intimidation, to facilitate that terrorist thing, but I don't think it would be tasteful to emphasize that. As for how many skills, this is clearly a support/technical class, so they should be more of a skill-monkey than your typical combattant. Let's say... 4 of?

6. For tool proficiencies, they should obviously have a choice of thieves tools, forgery kit, poisoners kit, or the disguise kit. Limiting them to one intentionally incentivizes players who want multiple kit proficincies to choose less socially acceptable backgrounds, as those are the ones which typically provide these kit proficiencies. By giving them a choice of which kit to be proficient in, you allow them to customize the details of their ninja training- which can be used as story writing material. It also opens up more options for background choice, as giving one specific kit would disincentivize choosing a background that already provides that proficiency.

7. Ninja actually wore armor. They were not the cloth-clad evasive wuxia we see in the movies. They just chose to conceal their armor, such that it would not draw attention, and so that enemies would waste their time attacking areas that were well protected. The heaviest armor they wore was chainmail, which is a heavy armor in this game. (A fact I cringe at every time I see it) Although, the PHB chain mail entry is referencing a full medieval chainmail suit, which was very different from the chain armor of the ninja. A closer mechanical equivalent would be the chain shirt. So, they should probably have proficiency with both light and medium armors. That said, there should also be a feature that incentivizes them to go without armor, but without providing a defensive advantage- they can be careful and wear armor, or they can take a risk, go without, and get a little extra trick. I can't find much evidence for ninja using any sort of shield though, and I don't think an easy AC bonus is really in the theme of a stealthy tactical combat unit, so I don't think they should have shield proficiency.

8. For weapons, I'm a little stumped/conflicted. We can't just give them free-rign weapon proficiency like what the fighter has, as that would step on the fighter class' toes too much, and allow a type of play this class wasn't really intended for. Another idea would be to borrow the monk weapons from the monk, and just give ninjas the same proficiency, but that just feels lazy and kind of cheap. A third idea I had was to let players choose a limited number of weapons- 4 or five- to have specific proficiency, but this makes the ninja very limited, weapon-wise, and that kind of goes against their supposed versatility. Another idea I had was to make a new type of weapon proficiency- give them proficiency with weapon traits instead of groups. So, for example, the ninja could have proficiency with light weapons, finesse weapons, thrown weapons, and maybe ranged weapons. This last idea- the weapon trait proficiency- seems most appealing to me. It gives them access to mostly the right types of weapons, gives them lots of options, and still explicitly does not give them everything.

9. Ok, now for the archetypes. I can think of two archetypes right off the bat: The Agent, based off the Iga clan, and the Mercenary, based off the Koga clan. The agent archetype doubles down on stealth and grants additional features for being more like a scout, spy, assassin, or saboteur. Meanwhile, the mercenary archetype emphasizes the combat role of the ninja, focusing on guerilla warfare, ambushes, terrorism, and the other more violent and dramatic aspects of the profession. I would also suggest a third archetype, a magical ninja of sorts, based primarily off of the myths which spread about ninja.

As for when they choose an archetype, I actually have some detailed thoughts on that. First off, have you noticed that only spellcasters choose an archetype at first level? Why is that? The ninja, as trained professionals, are the perfect opportunity to break that pattern. After all, you don't choose a clan after being trained, your clan trained you from the start! So, I think they should choose an archetype at first level. It sets them apart from all other classes in the game, and it is also thematic and flavorful.

Finally, we need to decide how many archetype features are provided and when. Most archetypes only provide 4 features out of 20 levels, but the precedent shows you could have as many as 9. Levels 1, 3, 6, and 14 are most likely to be where the first four archetype features are awarded. I'm not sure how we want to distribute the archetype features, or how much we want the archetypes to dictate the feel of the class.

10. OK, special class feature time! This is the piece that makes the whole class "who it is". I noticed you wanted to use ki, which is just a bland re-skin of the standard resource pool system any schmuck can tack on to a class to make it look unique. (Sorcerer? Sorcery points! Barbarian? Rages! Monk? Ki Points! etc.) If we're going to go with a class resource, we should make what it does distinct and interesting- mechanically different from the point usage of other classes.

One idea I had was to focus on the fancy spy-gear side of this class, by spending class points to make a sort of super-powered version of the tinker gnome's trinkets. The way I thought of it was like this: A ninja has a limited number of concealed tools at their disposal. (Ninja tools are the points) The number of tools they can conceal increases as they gain levels. During a short or long rest, a ninja can spend tool points to macguyver together some nifty consumable gizmos from common stuff they happened to passively pocket while travelling about. During a long rest, they can also dismantle tools they have already made to reclaim the tool points. As they gain levels, more types of ninja tools can be made, and old ninja tools become more powerful. They can use a bonus action to use one of their concealed tools, which consumes it in the process, returning them one tool point. This could include throwing stars, caltrops, smoke grenades, flash grenades, firebombs, fireworks, throwing knives, oil slick, blinding powder, a garotte, chloroform, poison darts, flash paper, single-use lockpicks, a short note written on a scrap of paper/fabric/leather, a vomit pill, a drink that causes you to realistically feign death, a drink that grants you temporary dark vision for 30 ft, climbing hooks which temporarily give you1 15ft climbing speed, disposible footstep mufflers, a single-use fire starter, a small candy/treat, a reed snorkel, single-use wrist-ties, a spellcracker (a single use cantrip), a couple of false coins, a distracting noise-maker, or any number of other fanciful tricks they can hide up their sleeves! This could allow them to play like James Bond or even Batman, (who is actually a ninja)!

Another feature I thought of earlier was a variant of the fighting style, called a Martial Manual. They work the same as fighting styles, but they are not mechanical parallels. There are fewer to choose from. A ninja can spend a long rest to teach a martial manual to any character who has a fighting style, but that character must give up a fighting style to learn it. A character who has abandoned a fighting style for a martial manual may spend a long rest to switch back. This is a cool inter-party interaction kind of feature with clear mechanical aspects- but not of significant balance impact. Having multiple characters with the same fighting style is functionally no more powerful than if they all had different fighting styles- if anything, it's actually more limiting!

A third feature I thought of is sort of a restyled version of a wood elf's camouflage trait. A ninja could attempt to hide when so much as lightly obscured by shadows, fire, smoke, furniture, or crowds of people. If a wood-elf took this class, they would be master sneaks, ninja who can hide practically anywhere!

A fourth feature was more exploration-oriented, and was (vaguely) inspired by the ranger's overworld travel related traits. Specifically, whenever a ninja takes a short or long rest, they may spend some sort of resource, (1 ninja tool if we use that feature, otherwise 1 HD) to disguise their trail, making it harder for enemies to track them up to the point of their last rest. Any character attempting to track a ninja or his companions must make a wisdom nature check to do so, and this check is made with disadvantage. The DC for the check is the ninja's passive stealth score. I like this one because it actually involves the DM. I'm a little iffy on it though, because it kind of depends on the DM being honest and actually following the restriction, rather than just not making any rolls at all and having NPCs find the party whenever he damn well pleases. Because this feature explicitly steps on the toes of some DMs playing styles, it has the potential to start some fights at the table, simply because some people are just immature like that. I don't think we should have to design around player immaturity, but the fact that it exists and is so widespread kind of forces us to.

A social feature I thought of gave ninja a downtime activity based on spreading rumors, from the DMG. Basically, the ninja could spend downtime days to spread myths about ninja. The myths would persist for 10 times as long as the character spent spreading them. Any time the ninja attempts to make a persuasion, deception, or intimidation check using the rumor as its subject matter, they have advantage on the check.

Back on the subject of armored vs. unarmored ninja... There needs to be some kind of benefit to players who want to play that cloth-clad ninja, which can offset the AC advantage good armor choice can provide. One idea is to borrow unarmored movement from monk, but tweak it so it's unique for the new class. How about, instead of granting a whole bunch of movement, it diversifies your range of movement? Like, it doubles your jump distance and height, gives you +10ft climbing speed, +10ft swimming speed, allows you to move over rough terrain as though it were normal terrain, reduces fall damage from 1d6/ft to 1d4/10ft, etc. So, while a monk could outrun a ninja, a ninja could outmaneuver a monk. Alternatively, being unarmored could grant you one extra attack from the mobility you've gained. Actually, what if one archetype gave you unarmored movement, and the other archetype gave you unarmored attack?? That'd be cool!

Another idea for an exploration/social feature is Cryptography. It allows the ninja to recognize secret languages, like thieves cant, and on a DC10 intelligence check, translate its meaning. A DC15 intelligence check also allows them to communicate a message in a secret language. A DC20 intelligence check allows them to leave an encrypted message with its own unique cypher. A DC25 intelligence check allows them to decypher an encripted message.

Really running with the spy tools thing, we could also add a bunch of things ninja can use the item crafting downtime activity to make. Things like special ninja equipment, or tweaking out their stuff to do really fancy things!

• A scope for ranged weapons
• A handheld periscope
• A primitive stethoscope for hearing through doors, windows, and thin walls
• Disguise a weapon as something else (For the price of the weapon)
• Make normal clothing reversible into dark clothing (For tghe price of two outfits)
• Disguise armor as clothing (For the price of the armor)
• A ghillie suit. (Priced as a costume)
• Make a weapon into a ninja tool activator. (When you hit the enemy with it, you can use a bonus action to simultaneously activate a ninja tool) For double the price of the weapon.
• Add a secret compartment to an item (5gp/lb capacity, up to a limit of half the object's weight)
• A hookshot/spring-rappel
• A glass-knife (As in a knife that cuts glass, not a knife made of glass.)
• A retrieval line for a thrown weapon (same price as weapon)
• (mostly) Permanent, salable versions of your ninja tools (though these can not be activated by a bonus action)

11. We could totally make a Shinobi clansman background, with a variant for characters who were recruited, rather than born into it. I see it working a lot like the guild artisan background, but re-flavored. Like, instead of making a legal defense for you if you get into trouble with the law, they'll bribe officials to get you out of it, and "practicing your profession" is just a sneaky euphemism for "doing terrible things to people for money".

12. We could also make a ninja guild faction. We could call it the Garden Keepers, based on the oniwaban, and use the shinobi clan ranks. We can fill out the remaining two rank titles by using japanese colloquialisms for the shinobi.

• 5/Guild Leader = Jonin ((Upper Man))
• 4 = Chunin ((Middle Man))
• 3 = Genin ((Lower Man))
• 2 = Monomi ((One Who Sees))
• 1 = Kusa ((Grass))

...Wow. That's a lot of work, considering I haven't even finished reading the wikipedia article on ninja yet. Can you imagine how many ideas I'd have if I'd managed to keep interested in the research step? Anyways, I think 12 hours straight is more than enough time to spend just giving away ideas for free. I'm tired now. Good night!

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