Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers

Tome of Battle Questions

No problem 2008-02-11 15:20

well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.

some questions though.

1. what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.
2. also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.
3. i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.
4. can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?
5. is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.
6. what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?
7. ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?
8. can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?
9. swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.
10. how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?
11. if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?
12. the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).

    how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand?

    actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.

13. what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?
14. how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.
15. how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?

    'adamantine hurricane' is one standard action. which means i have a move action. so do i get the boost's extra attacks for free? do i still get to make the 'adamantine hurricane' attacks and the boost's attacks and then get a move action? pretty fearsome if you ask me. get a double bladed sword. use one end two handed for 'adamantine hurricane' and then the two ends for 4 more attacks at your BAB and then make a move action? freakin fearsome!

16. 'shifting defense'. it states in first paragraph you get to make a 5' step if your opponent misses you and yet on second paragraph, which is usually the technical exact description, it states that every time an attacker attacks you you get to move 5'. which is it?
17. 'stalker in the night'. does it allow to move up to a character, atttack him, move on and stay hidden (keep orginal hide and move silently results) throughout? do i incur AoO? i mean, from creatures that havent spotted me, especially the target of the attack.
18. can i use the 'deep impact' feat in conjunction with, say, 'dimaond nightmare blade'? or in general can the 'deep impact' feat be used in conjunction with the various strikes (though if more than one attack is given by the strike, then only one of the attacks)? what about 'cleave'? can it be used while using 'adamantine hurricane'?
19. 'iron heart surge'. what the hell are those "spell, effect or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds"? does it include charm person? cause how can i try to overcome something i am not aware of? or do i have to be aware of the condition and its affects on me? does this include any godsdamned thing i am aware of that affects me?

Sledged-20080213120512

Sledged (talk) 2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)

Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks. As best as I can tell, Tome of Battle was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with disintegrate, an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with chain lighting, and can effectively kill a single creature using flesh to stone (all 6th-level spells). I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums. Standard actions (like Manyshot) may not be taken as part of any full-round action. I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done. Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers." There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary. There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning Spring Attack and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is move and the only standard action that can be done is an attack action with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with Spring Attack. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round. As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action. Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack." Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it. I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the FAQ implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw). That sounds about right. Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class. Adaptive Style doesn't affect the number of expended/unexpended maneuvers you have unless you're a crusader. If you have five maneuvers ready and three have been expended, when you use Adaptive Style to change your readied maneuvers, you get to choose which two maneuvers are unexpended. You could use Adaptive Style without changing your readied maneuvers to swap your expended ones with unexpended ones, but unless you're a crusader, that would be a waste of a full-round action. I'd say since the extra attacks are not part of the maneuver, you don't get the +4 bonus, but if you're using a reach weapon you don't have to limit the extra attacks to adjacent opponents. Double weapons have been a minor issue with things like that. Consequently, some DM's house-rule that once you use a weapon two-handed (not just double weapons), you can't employ two-weapon fighting (unless you have more than two hands), and vice-versa. In fact there's a number of issues with two-weapon fighting in general, that I'm hoping they'll address in 4E. The first paragraph doesn't give any defined game-rule information, so go with the second paragraph. Yes, provided your movement ends in a place that allows you to hide. You're considered to have total concealment against any creature whose Spot check you beat with your Hide check, so you don't provoke AoOs. It can be used with anything that requires a melee attack roll, but it only applies to one attack, and the choice must be made before you make the attack roll. The wording is bad. I'd rule it's any spell/power/invocation or some other special ability whose duration is explicitly given and is 1 or more rounds. I don't think I'd allow it for all persisting conditions. As far as being aware of the effect, it doesn't specify, and I could see a DM ruling it either way. Justification could be that even though you're not consciously aware of it, your subconscious has more insight on your state of being.

There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother. —Stephen Notley, creator of Bob the Angry Flower A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. —Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams

Aarnott 10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)

(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).

Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).

Sledged-20080219115121

Sledged (talk) 2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)

Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a not an action. Casting blade of blood twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths. The same goes for multiple shocking grasp effects. In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.

There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother. —Stephen Notley, creator of Bob the Angry Flower A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. —Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams

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