Discussion:Most Unbalanced Class

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October 19th 2008 - March 8th, 2010

Which base class do you think is most unbalanced?

I believe that the Monk is too powerful. Maybe if the unarmed damage was lessened... That would also increase the usefulness of monk weapons. A level 1 Monk with 14 Dex and 14 Wis, and Mage Armor and Shield cast on him=22 AC. Mage Armor and Shield scrolls= 50GP.

Give me a break....

There is no such thing as an unbalanced class. There are unbalanced players. The creme rises to the top, especially in 3.5. If someone complains? Deal with it. Do the research and build a more powerful character like the guy who you're bitching about did. You can optimize a monk or mage all you want, but the duskblade is stupidly powerful. It has the hit points and base attack of a paladin. At level 20 you can cast 10 first, second, and third level spells. That is, assuming INT of 15, 11 shocking grasps 5d6 damage each. If only three attacks hit on average, due to Arcane Channeling that is still 11*5d6*3 = 165d6 points of damage. Quick cast lets him cast 4 spells a day as a swift action. As a fifth level spell the duskblade can cast polar ray or disintegrate. That is another 120d6 points of damage if you cast them both once. Also armor isn't a problem because at 4th level you can wear medium armor or mithral full-plate. The only problem you might have is casting your spells in melee, but a CON of 20 +5, maxed out concentration 24, and skill focus 3 that is thirty two. If you give the duskblade gear for its level it is almost imposable to stop. I'm not dissing monks or anyone else but stupid power is stupid.

Where do you get 11 attacks per turn? As far as I can tell, you get 4 Shocking attacks with a full round action, and 1 spell with a swift action. And even there, it looks like the shocking grasp can only affect each enemy once per turn, so it only does 5d6 to each enemy hit that round... Also, for Polar Ray and Disintegrate, he can only use those together 4 times per day (using one as a swift action and one as a standard action), and that causes him to not attack that round because of casting a standard spell... I really don't understand how it's overpowered... ~~Rogue The Demonchild

Try This

Since there seems to be so much trouble with optimization, lets try this out.
- A level 20 Wizard, with spells prepared for an average day. (The wizard's level may be lower if he has used some spells that require XP, such as wish or permanency.) Think of it as, the monk and the wizard both have trained for the same time, so they're only both level 20 if the wiz hasn't used some xP up.
- A level 20 Monk, all prepared for an average day.
- Neither one has any items besides clothing (neither use weapons or armor, and items are just bonus, so it's fair)
- Neither one multiclasses (since the initial question of the page is which BASE class is unbalanced)
- Both of the two have Elite Array ability scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), arranged as desired, and +5 ability points for levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.
- Neither of them have any feats EXCEPT those gained by class features (bonus feats).
- The two of them meet on the street and hate each other immediately, and decide to fight.
Let's see how this fight will go. If S1Q3T3 or Surgo are still here, please use this as a battleground.
Rogue The Demonchild 08:04, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

wizard wins quick. forcecage (no save, no SR) completely takes out the monk, and cloudkill takes all his con over a few rounds. wizard has already teleported to a beach and is sipping a fancy drink with an umbrella in it. monk cant ethereal out of the cage (its a force effect), he's doomed. if the monk goes first and gets 1 attack off (has to get to him) the wizard blows his +20 to any save or to ac from moment of prescience to either have the monk miss, or to guarantee he's not stunned from stunning fist. Unless you wanna say they start next to each other so the monk could just open with flurry of blows (which is real arbitrary), they should be starting at least 30 feet apart ala duel/ western shoot out. ANd even if the monks next to the wizard when he casts any 20th level wizard is a) taking a 5 ft step and b) passing any concentration check.--Name Violation 08:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Monk ability Abundant Step = "At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down)." A monk can teleport out of the forcecage.

Monk ability Diamond Body = "At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds." Cloudkill is a poison, and therefore does not affect the monk at all. --Rogue The Demonchild 09:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

quicken Dimensional Anchor to counter d-door (or d-lock works too) with the force cage. any number of other things he can still do to the monk. waves of fatigue, finger of death, ect.

a wizard could have still used wish for +5 to int, but with no gear the monks stats are lower than normal for a 20th level character. the monk (assuming 16 con which is generous without items since a monk needs wis, dex, str, and con to be really good) the monk has +15 to make the fort save 24 assuming 24 int via wishes, yes its cheap but spells are a class ability). thats a 50/50 chance to die, and the wizard can do that more than once. if it really comes down to it fly/overland flight can keep the wizard out of the monks range, and theres nothin the monk coud do about it. and I haven't enven gotten into the real good spells yet.

also monks cant compete with wish. a wizard can snap his fingers and alter the universe, keep the tarrasque dead, and any number of other things. and if the wizard just lays down and dies, thats what spell like clone are for. 1 of these class have the ability to come back from the dead. hint. its not the monk.

For the record i love monks, but a properly built wizard is creating his own planes of existence and manipulating existing ones, and probably holding back his true abilities, as to not draw the unwanted attention of gods. monks are still just punching people. monks do have many many good points, but this is a losing battle for Mr martial arts. --Name Violation 10:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

As long as I (Rogue the Demonchild) use this example, assume the monk has 15+3(18) Wisdom, 14+2(16) Dexterity, 13 Con, 12 Str, 10 Int, 8 Cha.

First off, at level 13+, a monk has spell resistance equal to 10+his level. This means that a level 20 wizard can hit a level 20 monk with some spells 50% of the time. Dimensional anchor is against spell resistance, AND you need to make a ranged attack roll VS 21 AC (10 + 4(wis) + 3(dex) +4(class growth). I will assume that your wizard put the 15 and the 5 extra to INT, and then the 14 to dexterity. The wizard in this case has a +12 to his attack roll, and needs to roll a 9 to hit. This means that Dimensional Anchor only has about a 25% chance of working.

Dimensional Lock is an 8th level spell and cannot be quickened until EPIC levels.

Also, remember that you're preparing all these spells in advance. Would you really be quickening Dimensional Anchor to one of your 8th level slots?

Any spells I can find either affect Spell Resistance or one of the saves, or both. Remember that only one in 2 Waves of Fatigue or Finger of Death will even be able to get past that resistance. Also, Finger of Death affects Fort. Assuming the wizard 24 int (+7 modifier)(as you have given), the save of these is 17+spell level. The ones you use tend to be level 7-8 spells, so I'll go with 24 DC. With 13 Con, the fort is 13, needing to roll an 11 to succeed. This means that Finger of Death, against fort and spell resist, has a 25% chance to work as well.

As for the flight, yes you COULD fly away. BUT if you chose to fly as your first action, the monk can teleport up to you and hit you with a quivering palm (to kill) or stunning fist (to stun). If you choose to fly after attempting a Forcecage AND quickened dimensional anchor(25% chance to hit), there's a 3 in 4 chance that the anchor won't work, the monk can teleport to you and hit you.

For the record, I am usually a sorcerer or a druid. I don't really like melee classes all that much. I just like to debate the issue fairly, and the monk hasn't gotten much fair arguing from S1Q3T3. But I'm enjoying this little debate.

Oh, and one last thing, in order to get a +4 bonus to Int from wish, you'd need to cast it 4 times in succession. You don't get a bonus 9th level spell-per-day with that low of Int, so you can only get it +4. AND each wish costs 5000 xp, being 20,000 xp altogether. That is one whole level, so in that case, it is now a level 20 monk against a level 19 wizard with +4 to int. Just remember that. -Rogue The Demonchild 17:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

When you say teleport, I'm going to assume you mean dimension door, since you specified this as being item free. You might note, you can't actually do anything after using dimension door.

“	After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.	”
—SRD:Dimension Door

This means a monk can teleport out of a forcecage, and then the wizard can forcecage the monk again and the monk cannot do anything, since forcecage specifically mentions that it blocks ethereal travel. The wizard then has two hours to prepare himself to destroy the monk, or he could cast acid fog which has no save, nor does it allow spell resistance. The monk could hold out for twenty rounds using its Timeless Body class feature, only to have the wizard do it again, at which point the monk sustains 2d6 damage per round over 20 rounds, for an average of 140 damage. If the wizard has more acid fogs he may have them all affecting the monk concurrently, or he can use other spells, such as maw of chaos, black tentacles, baleful polymorph, finger of death, etc, etc. The only way the monk wins is if he wins initiative and kills the wizard on the first turn, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the wizard has a contingent teleport set to activate upon being attacked, so that won't actually work either. -- Jota 20:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, people who play wizards the way we're talking about don't actually cast wish themselves -- the use planar binding and the like to bind efreeti and then have the bound creatures cast the wishes for them in exchange for something or other, so this hypothetical wizard would have all of his attributes boosted by 5. -- Jota 20:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

how are you teleporting (standard action, as per spell) and then attacking (another standard action)? the monk cant make it to the wizard with a teleport and attack. also also would casting gate and callin an a 40 hd outsider make you happy? hell not even 40 hd. how about i make you solo a balor or pit fiend at the same time. have fun

the durations on a lot of spells is almost all day at 20th, so lets let the monk go first

ok, lets just let the monk go first.. monk charges and hits with quivering palm. blow moment of prescience for +20 to fort save. passes quivering palm, thats off the table. cast force cage, cast fly and fly outta range, call cr 20+. you have 1 teleport. hell i could just call anything with 40hd or more as my first standard action. can you solo a balor? a pit fiend? those are only half strength summons with gate. lasts 20 rounds. even if you can take me out you still got a cr 20 to solo. enjoy.

edit: also what jota said --Name Violation 20:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Abundant Step (Dimension Door) can be used to get the monk out of range of the forcecage (close range =25 + 5/2levels= 75 ft). The (human) monk can be up to 180 feet away, and then charge (human speed (30ft) + monk speed (+60ft) + Charge(x2) = 180ft). Charging at the wizard lets the monk attack after moving up to him, and can attempt then to stun him. The monk's attack bonus is 15+1(str), so 16 + 1d20. The wizard's AC will be 10+2-3(dex), POSSIBLY +4 from mage armor (but no one has mentioned casting that, as the wizard has been casting forcecages), so max about 17 AC. The monk can only miss if he rolls a natural 1 (critically failing).

The monk would (most likely) be using a stunning fist, DC 10 + 1/2 level + Wisdom (10+10+4=24). The wizard has Fort 6 + Con 1 (assuming Int and Dex were highest), so 7 Fort modifier. The wizard would need to roll a 17 to make this save, meaning he has a 20% chance to make it. 80% chance to be stunned, allowing the monk to full flurry, each can be a stunning fist (to make sure the wizard is still stunned), or even one can be a Quivering Palm, which can one-hit kill the wizard.

Let me just add that above is a response to Jota, as I wrote it before Name Violation's was posted. The following I have written after Name Violation.

As I see it, the only reasonably likely way for the wizard to win (so far) is to fly or to summon something else to fight for him. I would say that so far, the monk isn't underpowered, and the wizard's spells aren't overpowered for the most part. The wizard being able to summon a CR 20, or being able to bind others to wish for him; THOSE are overpowered spells. And on that note, summoning those creatures is part of your spell, but using THEIR abilities is not part of the wizard class features, it is part of the summoned creature's. That is (somewhat) equivalent to taking a PrC, as it gives you more abilities than are on the wizard spell list. -Rogue The Demonchild 20:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

well mage armor last 20 hours, this miraculously poverty stricken wizard can wake up, cast it and be good all day. no reason to waste combat rounds buffing with that. and now you're arguing that thats cheating, but those ARE wizard spells, which makes them part of a wizards class ability. I can summon a creature that can do more than hack and slash. sorry. also, you cant take a standard action (dim door) then charge. as jota pointed out, read the 3rd sentence of dimention door

“	After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.	”
—SRD:Dimension Door

so 2 force cages and mr monk is screwed

the monks losing and your closes thing to a defense is agreeing they are powerful. and this isn't even into optimizing, or splat books yet, this is just the basics from the srd, there is a lot more powerful stuff at a wizards disposal than at a monks. If the wizard doesn't wanna fight he can always teleport to any friendly plane, leaving the monk with his thumb up his butt. monks have nothing to compete against that stuff with. Are you realizing the monk is weaker than you thought?--Name Violation 21:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Mage armor, agreed. Lasts all day.

Summoning other things is, as I said, the only thing I can see that is overpowered with the wizard. It gives you infinite power, as you can summon a being twice as strong as you and control it.

In my example, the monk was teleporting far away, then waiting a turn to charge. Not the same turn. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

If the wizard doesn't want to fight, he teleports away, which is the equivalent of giving up, monk wins. That's not really an option for you, sorry.

So far, I'm NOT realizing the monk is weaker than I thought, I'm just realizing that some summoning spells are too powerful (not even against a monk, but against anyone). At level 20, you should be fighting CR 20 things with a group of 4. Instead, the wizard can summon up a HD40 thing and solo pwn the CR 20 thing. Now we've agreed that summoning is overpowered. -Rogue The Demonchild 21:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

and wizards arent the only ones who can do that. wiz/sorc and clerics can all do that. a lot of spells are overpowered by your definition. and the monk can be shut down by rounds 2-3. hell the wizard has the time to cast teleportation circle and potentially send the monk where ever he wants. like to the 20d6 per round damage outskirts of the abyss or 9 hells. but summoning spells are over powered, wizards can have all summoning spells, therefor wizards can be overpowered. sorry they can do more than chuck fireballs and lightning bolts --Name Violation 21:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

So if I'm understanding you correct, you are saying that all casting classes are overpowered and all non-casting classes are underpowered. Good to know. -Rogue The Demonchild 22:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

casting classes aren't overpowered, as much as non casters are underpowered. and if you wanna fix this its alot easier to fix the melee classes than to try and fix spells just because if you change spells, then you have to take that into account when looking at every monster with those spells, and nerfing spells nerfs the CR of the monsters with them. so its easier to change a few classes than a lot of monsters and spells. but its also a trade off, you can be a strong armerd heavy hitting hp machine or a glass cannon that takes a lot more thinking and preparation. but the biggest benefit to wizard over melee classes is a melee class is the same, day in, day out. a wizard can prepare totally different spells from one day to the next changing what they do. its comparing a soldier to a scientist. a soldier can shoot people and probably take a beating, but a scientist invented the a-bomb, which can take out nations, but we still have armies of soldiers. --Name Violation 22:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, think of it this way, the only ways you've been naming to beat the monk are high level spells, of which you can only cast a few of. Even with an int of 25, you can only cast 4 8th level spells and 4 9th level spells per day. You have 8 attacks in a day that are amazing. After that they start losing power. Meanwhile, a monk can keep hitting for good damage each turn (5 attacks, say 3 hit, none crit = 6d10+3 = 36 damage) that ignores damage reduction, AND the monks are still hard to hit all day. Its all about how many battles the character will need to fight. -Rogue The Demonchild 22:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Let's not forget wizards can take naps. It's always been my gameplay experience that the spellcaster makes the decision to call it a day, and camp for the night. He's got enough ways to keep himself happy and healthy during the night, too. Finally, I can think of no example in which a level 20 character would call 36 dpr "good damage", even if it is bypassing DR. A proper rogue can deal that much by level 9 without breaking a sweat (subject to certain conditions being met, but that's hardly an obstacle for most veteran players). --Badger 23:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, wizards CAN take naps. And meanwhile, the monk is still fighting.

36 dpr is not actually good damage, but this is with no items. With magic items the damage will be increased (although not very much, but its still some), and my point is that its decent damage for someone that can't be hit very easily. The monk has 3 high saves, a better-than-average AC, has Evasion and Greater Evasion, is immune to poison and disease, is resistant to spells, has amazing landspeed, can't be damaged from falls, can heal, can teleport away, cannot be aged, can go ethereal, has damage reduction, and has a d8 HP, which is just below a fighters. The monk is the most defensive class of the game, and he can still do pretty decent damage. The only more defensive he can be is if he gained Uncanny Dodge.

Oh, and also, assuming the wizard has average HP (2.5/level), and a +1 Constitution, the wizard has 70 HP. 36 damage/round = Wizard dead in 2 rounds. -Rogue The Demonchild 23:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

but the wizard already has you trapped after 2 rounds (we went over that), never mind the possibility of contingent spells (like teleport me the hell outta here so i can catch you at MY convenience) and clone (guess you didn't finish me off after all). even if you could take out the wizard, he can come back, the monk can't say the same thing

but a wizard has abilities to take out ARMIES, even with out items. a monk without items isn't taking out much. the wizard can summon a balor for 20 rounds and litteraly raise hell, meanwhile the monk punches a guy.... or the wizard can potentially out melee the monk using polymorph. as can a druid with buffs and wildshape. druids and clerics can easily out melee a fighter, barbarian or monk with only a few spells (and clerics can do this all day with divine metamagic persist cheezeyness) and still have most of their spells left incase they need them. no prestige classes needed there either. even a fighter properly built (but not without his magic goodies) can take out a monk with little to no problem. hell even without magic items a fighter with a few feats and a great sword can have about +32 to hit the monk and deal 2d6+71 on a charge, and thats without magic (shock trooper, combat brute, power attack, leap attack, greater w. focus, greater w. specialization). probably a lot more damage in all actuality. or use a lance for d10+71x2 since we're charging for an average of 152 damage, which probably drops the monk in one hit

also, a wizard opting to try and go toe to toe with a melee type isn't playing up to his wizards outrageous int--Name Violation 23:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that defending DPR by saying it is "with no items" is a misleading. Although true, monks, by design, don't rely on items the way pretty much every other class does. As for the rest of your statement, I totally agree. I think the word you're looking for is "Tank". Monks do very well to hold off enemies and let their squishier allies do some pretty rad things (while doing rad things on their own, to be sure). That said, I think in our hearts we all know a wizard played properly can beat a monk played properly in a one on one standard duel. Under certain circumstances a monk can have the upper hand, but I'd go so far as to say 9 times out of 10 the wizard comes out on top. That, in my mind, means a wizard is stronger. How you choose to define "stronger" may influence your answer, I suppose. Of course, monks would have to keep fighting while the wizards get to sleep. After all, what else is the wizard going to do, considering he's already finished killing/disabling his enemies... (had to get that one last jab in, sorry) --Badger 23:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

First of all, how does the wizard have the monk trapped in two rounds? Round one, trap, then monk teleports out of range of the cage.

Second, I've already agreed that summoning is overpowered, so lets please stop using that example. We all get it that Gate can pwn people way more powerful than a wizard.

Next, the fighter. I don't know what book shock trooper or combat brute are in, could you link them to me? I don't see how his one attack can deal that much damage. Also remember if you use power attack, you have to reduce your own attack bonus.

You do have good points, though. If anyone can defend the monk better, please give it your all. -Rogue The Demonchild 23:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

the wizard can ready an action to cast once the monk is in range again. The feats should be in complete warrior. and one of the feats i listed lets you take the negative to AC instead of to hit, no matter what your AC is. so the fighter's ac sucks for the round, but is dealing the mad damage with an awesome to-hit--Name Violation 00:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

They aren't in the Complete Warrior... Or the complete Adventurer. Any other places to find them? -Rogue The Demonchild 00:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

your search-fu has failed you. pages 110-112 of complete warrior, tactical feats--Name Violation 00:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Yea, sorry, I found it now. I was looking under general feats.

Well s**t. Those are rather useful. I should look through that book more often. But either way, I don't believe those two feats can be used together. Combat Brute says you must charge, then on the next turn use power attack. Shock Trooper says you must attack at the end of the charge (which I've come to understand as happening in the same round). Enlighten me if I'm wrong... -Rogue The Demonchild 00:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, when it comes to trapping you in two rounds, here's how: Round 1: Wizard casts forcecage(his turn is over). Monk spends standard action getting out with abundant step (his turn is pretty much over). Round 2: Wizard casts forcecage. Monk cries because he just realized he can only abundant step once a day. By the end of round two the monk are trapped again. Sure a wizard has just burned 2 of his 7th level spells, but he still has enough left to eat a monk. --Badger 00:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Logic doesn't work. Round 1: Wizard casts forcecage. Monk spends standard action getting about 150 feet away with abundant step. Wizard is out of range to cast forcecage. -Rogue The Demonchild 00:39, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Wizard casts fly, moves 30 feet up. Without items, the fight's over, unless the monk can jump 30' into the air, and even then he has to close the distance, which means readied forcecages and acid fogs. As to why higher level spells: those are generally the 'no save, no SR' ones that are required to ensure the monk's doom, and even if they allow the save, having a high DC (from being a higher level spell) is nice. The wizard could easily kite and cast scorching ray or some such if you would prefer. -- Jota 00:58, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I was under the impression the point of the duel was to kill the other fighter, not to get away first. I assumed the monk would stay withing fighting distance. He doesn't even have ranged attacks, so if he's more than 30 feet away he's wasting his turn. If the goal is to flee fastest, the wizard can cast teleport or fly like Jota said... --Badger 01:00, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

i wasn't using combat brute in that example actually. i just listed it for follow up rounds, I was using shock trooper for the negative to ac instead of to-hit. now if shock trooper didn't work on a charge, it wouldn't work at all. it a staple feat of most optimization charging builds. damage break down was actually off tho. should have been d10+ 7(str)+120(powerattack 2 handed is 40, X3 for leap attack)+4 (greater speciaization-)= d10+131X2 or 272 damage. in one hit, from a charge. a fighter can 1 hit a monk, and wizards are much worse-Name Violation 01:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

heres another example, just for perspective

Warlock 20 (complete arcane), 19 cha, 14 dex, 14con no items. feats of note

Point blank shot, weapon focus eldrich blast, improved crit eldrich blast, spell specialization eldrich blast,

Invocations of note:fell flight, eldrich spear, vitriolic blast, retributive invisibility.

So we have:

attack +18 at will range touch, 9d6+2 acid damage (ignores DR and SR)19-20x2 (+2d6 for 4 additional rounds), range 250 feet. (30 avg, +7avg for 5 rounds)

at will greater invisibility (granting an additional +2 to hit not included above and monk loses dex, but keeps wis and clas to ac)

fly speed 30 ft.

+1 hit and +1 damage within 30 feet (if warlock gets cocky enough to approach, but its really unnecessary to ever do)

112 hp, Dr 5/cold iron, fast healing 5 (swift action, 2 minutes 1/day), energy resist 20 (pick 2)

with greater invis and flying at will there is no reason to ever be in range or seen. pelt monk and continue till dead. It also means The warlock only misses the monk on a natural 1(5% of the time total), and crits on 19-20(10% of the time total). and still have pleny of other invocations to pick from (see in darkness and magical darkness for 24 hours, darkness at will, see invisibility at will all come to mind)

and this is far far far from optimized yet, this is literally the most basic combat build for a warlock, and incomplete. ANd warlock is acknowledged by most people to be far inferior to any other full caster--Name Violation 02:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

@Badger, the monk has a 90ft landspeed, so he can be up to 180 feet away and still charge the wizard next turn. He's not escaping, he's preparing.

@everyone else, I've finished defending the monk (with the exception of rebutting against obviously wrong arguments). I've claimed all I can. If anyone else can join in, please do. -Rogue The Demonchild 04:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

So I'll be done with this after I make one last point, too. Readied actions. "When the monk gets in range, I want to cast forcecage around him". Wizard just has to wait around until the monk decides he wants to play again.--Badger 05:07, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

So basically, summoning is overpowered, and monks need a ranged attack. -Rogue The Demonchild 06:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

actually its calling spells that are really powerful, not summoning so much. but there are dozens of spells just as powerful, if not more. The argument people have had for years isn't that the wizard needs to be dumbed down, the consensus is that the monk does need to be powered up. by a lot. and for the record round 2 the wizard can just cat time stop(d4+1 rounds, average 3), cast fly and move,drop a force cage, move, call a balor, move, and laugh, then be out of monks range and have his plans in action.--Name Violation 15:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it could (almost) all be balanced out if the monk just got airbending. Being able to slightly fly, and get some ranged attacks. That's all he needs. =P-Rogue The Demonchild 21:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

PH2 has some feats to let the monk throw a kameyhameha or haduken a few times a day. --Name Violation 22:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Really? I don't have the PH2; I should look it up. -Rogue The Demonchild 22:37, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

In this case, since Flaming Fists and Ki Blast (kamehameha) can both be taken as monk class features, and they each give one extra use of stunning fist... and the Ki Blast uses 2 stunning fists... A monk can, 11 times per day, use a ranged blast dealing 3d6+wis to target within 60 feet. Against a wizard, typically, the monk will hit with the ranged touch attack; so the monk CAN attack from within the forcecage before teleporting out. I'm a little too lazy to calculate everything right now, but it does give the monk a bit more of a chance. -Rogue The Demonchild 02:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

0% up from 0 is... 0. To make a point, I don't think anyone here actually hates monks -- the simple fact is they aren't especially great and wizards are overwhelmingly powerful in both the horizontal and vertical dimensions. You're defending an indefensible position. This isn't like we were touched in bad places by monks as children -- this just isn't even a good thought exercise. It's an open-and-shut case of utter domination by one side. -- Jota 02:45, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

again, spells like greater invis, or polymorph into something with an obscene dex can counter that. and at 20th force cage can be casted from 75 feet away. no reason for wizard to get close enough to hit. and then theres that pesky balor i keep bringing up.... a wizard isn't staying within range of someone who can hurt him. its not smart, and wizards are the smart class (i.e. based on int). the only reason to be within 75 feet is to let you hit him. also the reason things like that came out was to try and bring classes like monk up to par. also i the force cage can be made solid so you cant attack and tricks like teleporting water into it until you drown (force cage lasts 40 hours, theres plenty of time.

round 1-monk moves and/or attacks, wizard force cages (solid)

round 2-monk d-doors out, wizard moves, time stops and gets 3 (average)apparant rounds

apparant round 1-cast fly, move

apparant round 2-cast gate, summon balor next to you, move

apparant round 3-forcecage #2, barred 20ft cube, around monk and balor, move

round 3-monk is in forcecage #2, and sees no enemy except balor locked in a cage with him. Wizard cast greater invis, moves

round 4- monk cant do anything to wizard and is toe to toe with a balor for 20 rounds, wizard acid fogs. monk takes 2d6 acid for 20 rounds.

round 5 and later- wizard doesn't have to do anything

and this is just basics. a lot worse could be done. also i may have some order of tactics wrong, i don't tend to play wizards. and the warlock still takes out a monk in this scenario, since he has better fire power, longer range, flight and invisibility. --Name Violation 02:37, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you can cast acid fogs through a solid force cage... And yes, as I've said earlier, the balor is overpowered. And I've mentioned to stop using the Gate example because we all get that it's overpowered.

Also, I agree that wizards are overpowered, because of the spells they get. But just a few deleted spells could get them more balanced (for one, getting rid of gate). Monks, as I've said, need to be powered up. They basically need to be able to airbend. Just 3 moves: limited flight, medium-ranged attack, and something that knocks people prone.

And finally, as I've said earlier, I don't typically play a monk either. I'm usually a druid or sorcerer. I'm only giving the monk a fair debate. You've already run me out of arguments. I'm only commenting on things that I see are wrong. -Rogue The Demonchild 05:37, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

1st gate was solid (10x10), second is 20x20 barred so the balor would fit. and no, saying "you can't use that" isnt allowed. these aren't play ground make it up as we go along rules here, it is a perfectly viable and allowed wizard tactic and allowed by RAW, its the pay off for surviving long enough learning to cast, thats no less fair than the monks dr10/magic of quivering palm. Its not severe munchkinizing, twinking, power-building or optimizing. its picking one of the top end caster spells. 9th level spells are friggen uber, there is no denying that.

why are you so fixated on lowering a wizards power rather than bumping up a monks? people agree monks (most melee for that matter) need a swift kick in the gonads to get up to par. its not that the wizards jump ahead in power, but rather the monk falls behind. rather than punish the wizard, fix the monk

by the way, trying to 20th level a fight with a wizard and using no items was stabbing yourself in the foot. items could at least have given a few more options for the monk to delay the fight's end.--Name Violation 05:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Saying "you can't use that" is perfectly allowed, because I've already agreed that you'll win with one casting of that. 1st turn, use gate. Monk dies. Good fight. NOW lets try without that, to see if there's any other no save 1 turn kills, because its those moves that are overpowered.

And second, are you REALLY not reading what I've been saying? I've been admitting that the monk needs to be bumped up for awhile now. Lowering Sorcerer/Wizard spells a bit is just to balance them with the other classes, because a few spells are overpowered (although I've only found a very small amount). Otherwise you have to powerup monk (probably in the way I've already mentioned), powerup fighters, which I can only see happening with giving them feats that are more powerful (which also runs the risk of being overpowered just like spells), powerup barbarians, etc.

And no, without items was not at all stabbing myself in the foot. If the monk had items, so would the wizard, and it would end the same. Having feats may have helped, but I just wanted to see where a fair fight would go. I don't really give a damn that the monk lost.

Oh, and one last comment: to answer the ACTUAL question on this page, I think the Bard is the most underpowered class. Its like a wizard without any of the good spells, and its fighting isn't too good either... -Rogue The Demonchild 06:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Since the rules laid out by the past thousand discussions suggest that we should only look at the 20 core levels of the class, and not multi/prestige class options, I will only mention that the bard has tons of awesome options there, and leave it at that. As for the Bard as a straight 20 level progression, he really only is fun (and useful) in a game with the right amount of roleplay. Bards also work very well as the 5th man in a party, buffing up the friends. Of course, thus far we've only been talking about 20 level straight class, one on one fights. That said, in a fight, I think unless the bard went first, he'd have a hard time winning. If the bard went first, I think his chances of winning skyrocket against most opponents. I can see a bard beating a monk, fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian, and depending on how the dice fall, a rogue. By the way, I'm defining "win" as "not dead when the fighting is over", if that changes how you perceive my opinion --Badger 18:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that straight 20, the bard is way underpowered. But if we include prestige classes that are based on the class, then yea, the bard has some awesome options, as does the monk, wizard, etc. The bard can be useful, but he's just not strong enough. -Rogue The Demonchild 00:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Bards aren't meant to solo, they are much more of a support class. bards cant toe to toe with big baddies, but the can buff the hell out of the fighter and monk who are better at it. Actually I've seen a 1st level bard crit on a fascinate vs a balor and the balor fumbled its will save. results were hilarious. but bards can be pretty good, but i agree they aren't strong enough--Name Violation 01:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding like a concerned parent of a stupid child, I don't think the bard is "underpowered" so much as "differently powered". Almost all his spells deal with illusions, social interactions, or party-wide buffs. If you're defining "underpowered" as "will die against a 20th level fighter", then yes, he's underpowered. However, a bard doesn't deliver the killing blow, he sets up the killing blow for his friends. If you're putting a bard in a position where he has to kill someone, your party has failed. I think that needs to be remembered when calculating power. --Badger 01:41, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

A few weeks late but here's some food for thought: The Wizard has no items; "clothing only" was specifically stated. That means no spell component pouch and no arcane foci. Eschew Materials won't cover costly spell components or those pesky foci that are required by a number of spells, like Mage Armor and Fly. Sure, he can use Limited Wish for those, but there goes some of his XP.

Speaking of XP, how much these guys start with is very important. If the mage was allowed to pre-cast Wish some weeks ago for his +5 Int, he starts today at level 19 and possibly level 18 depending on how fresh to 20 his technical 'start' would have been. If he has to cast his Wishes today, he's SoL due to the XP-cost limitations of not being able to drop you a level. Regardless, there may not now be enough wiggle room in the XP department to cast a Limited Wish for Mage Armor, let alone a Wish or Gate.

Sorry to post and run--I'm liable to forget about this, but the discussion got me thinking.--relientKitten 09:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

planar bind genies and make them cast wish for you. no xp of yours is spent--Name Violation 15:31, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm just going to bring up the fact that Monk has Diplomacy as a class skill. If a Wizard can use Gate to get others to help him, the monk can use the friends he's made to help him. A wizard can get genies to get him to +5 inherent to all stats, a monk can get wizard friends to do the same for him. If a wizard can summon a Balor with gate, a monk can have his helpful friends aid him. Rogue The Demonchild 15:48, 22 April 2011 (MDT)

Heard of debuffing? Also, you need a check of 50 to make some hostile (tries to harm you) to Very Friendly (tries to harm your enemies). That's a 30 modifier, at minimum. Considering the Wizard's going to shoot a few debuffs or so, that'll be about a 40 or so, at minimum. Good luck.

Hey guys one real simple thing about this. TIME STOP->Forcecage (made too small to allow reflex saves) Delay Blast Fireball upto x4 set to explode at end of timestop. GG love ya monk.

With all do respect to you all, your all very knowledgeable. But I have yet to find a mage beat a good monk on init. And a smart monk would use his initial action and double move away from the wiz. And intelligently be patient with his attack. He would never just start fighting because he doesn't like his opponent. He would learn them then attack when and where he would have advantage. Thus eliminating the possibility of defeat. He could come at the wiz as a normal person on the street walking by, once he passes the wiz, he would stunning fist, then start attacks to keep him stunned and QP. All he needs is a dirty cloth off the ground to act like a poor retch passing by.

    His 90 movement and double move is plenty fast to get away from initial encounter. (Tripwire3)

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