Talk:Naruto: Shinobi (5e Class)/Archive 3

Kekkei Genkai & Balance

I am looking to revamp the Chakra Natures system a little based on a handful of issues I have with it. Having a single roll at 1st level determines whether you will end up with a drastically different amount of Jutsu (what if spellcasters has to roll for how many spells they had). While in the lore, KG are bloodline, their current implementation is flawed. Let me know what you think of the following:

At 1st, 3rd, 9th, and 15th level, you choose a chakra nature. You gain affinity for the nature you choose at 1st level, allowing you to add your unarmed damage to any damage rolls with its Jutsu. You can choose to gain affinity in a nature instead of gaining a new nature (you can only have affinity in each nature once). You can not choose a Kekkei Genkai until you have affinity in both of its types.

I also plan on adding the Yin, Yang, and/or Yin-Yang natures as a replacement for a Kekkei Genkai, so also let me know of some decent Jutsu for that. --Ref3rence (talk) 06:14, 28 June 2019 (MDT)

First, I appreciate all the work you have put into this class during my extended hiatus; you're are doing a great job. As for the kekkei Genkai change you've proposed, I'm against this change. However, requiring a player to choose the KG at character creation and starting with one of the requirement natures wouldn't be too bad. They could then use the KG after unlocking the other required nature. Keeping the affinity as is for the original nature. I will also come back to see any updates in the future

Side note, the prior chakra system was a stacking number, each level you would gain 1d4+con. The new system you imposed is not bad, however I think starting at 2+ con is somewhat low. If it's a stagnant number I'd personally start it at somewhere between 4 and 6, so at level 1 you are still capable of using the class equivalent of cantrips. --Dave the far too busy (talk) 10:31, 30 June 2019 (MDT)

Thanks for the info. I’ll do my best to modify the nature system to something similar to what you proposed. As for the chakra situation, the 1d4 system personally didn’t make much sense to me. At most, you could have 180 (Night Guy only costs 45 and is intended as a final sacrifice attack) and 0 at 20th level (negative Con mod with low rolls), but I’m not against upping the overall chakra by 2, though I might make 8th Gate cost 2 chakra to activate. --Ref3rence (talk) 00:08, 1 July 2019 (MDT)

I personally against how you're doing the new chakra nature because to me it made sense perfectly before because it's completely random just like how it would actually be, but now I feel like the way how you have it now opens the possibility to a power gaming mindset on this has to be good to go with this. Instead of letting RNG actually take control like how it's supposed to be cuz sure earth-style might be way defensive, but that’s the beauty of it you might want to build your character around working around that,and as for kg they were also fine because it was completely Fair on how you got them because of RNG(edit it also kind of makes it if it harder for newer players to understand even some well known players to understand this new system)(edit #2: and if you want yin and yang why not make it a level 20 ability since he gives you the truth seeking orbs which if I'm not mistaken is the peak of ninjutsu)

As I explained before, the RNG nature of KGs made it incredibly unbalanced by allowing RNG to almost double a player’s toolbox. In the same vein, gameplay comes before lore, so it doesn’t matter if it’s more lore friendly to unbalance the class. If choosing new natures and needing its component natures to use a KG is confusing, I don’t know what to tell you.--Ref3rence (talk) 07:56, 5 July 2019 (MDT)

Well, you can't really say that adding yin and yang release will add more balanced than it just being rng because, like I said before, if you make people pick their chakra natures that opens up more of a chance to power gaming. And another thing, a majority of Yin-Yang release jutsu should just be unique jutsu to clans. Calorie control is literally choji's whole thing and it's a bit overpowered when you think that you have an infinite supply of chakra because all you really need is a good Berry. Adding truth-seeking orbs basically gives them the power of a God, although you limited it, that's just not something anybody should get especially somebody at level 15. If you really wanted people to be more powerful at later levels, maybe add a feat where you can get a third chakra nature, But just don't add the powers of a literal God, because as soon as you get hit by those orbs you're supposed to die.

First off, please spell-check your posts. I’ve done my best to do it for you, but it’s tiring trying to figure out what you’re trying to say when there isn’t a single period in your argument. I never said that Yin-Yang made it more balanced. I initially intended for it to replace a kg for people who didn’t specialize toward one. It now acts as the final chakra nature one can unlock. You do not immediately gain it. As for your hatred for picking natures, imagine if warlocks needed to roll to determine what spells they had. With your concerns for goodberry, if you had a spell caster in your party who’s only purpose was to make goodberries with all of their spell slots, the most you could regain is 36, and I’m willing to bet most players don’t want to be the goodberry slave. While the truth-seeking orbs are the end-all in canon, lore often has to be sacrificed for balance. If it bothers you so much, you can always house rule it so players have to choose a different nature at 15th level. By all means, if you have a better idea of how to implement it, remembering that leaving an anime ability in its canon state is incredibly overpowered and that this class’s 20th level ability is sub-class based, my ears are open. --Ref3rence (talk) 08:35, 10 July 2019 (MDT)

Alternatively, I have considered making TSOs an 18th level feature, but I would need something to replace the Yin-Yang passive ability, but I haven't decided anything yet. I'm open to suggestions.--Ref3rence (talk) 15:31, 14 July 2019 (MDT)

If I'm not mistaken yen is mostly used when it comes to genjutsu don't know what Yang is mostly use for but maybe it could be an ability that lets you have advantage out of like status effects but then that would only work for one of the chakra natures so maybe you should keep them separate can I have a way to get the mixture later...I know what I'm trying to say I just can't put a fully into words right now

Kekkei Genkai & Chakra Nature Limitation

To the one who added extra chakra natures, stop. The limitation to 3 is intentional to limit the player’s toolbox, thus diversifying characters further. I’m willing to hear you out on this one, but do at least converse about such a major change. --Ref3rence (talk) 21:37, 26 July 2019 (MDT)

Two of you seem to want to limit Kekkei Genkai, but Limiting Kekkei Genkai in this manner isn't the right way to do it. Either limit them to a single one as it used to be when the class was first made, or leave it with no limit.

However, feel free to post your reasoning and alternate ideas on this matter. This is the point of a discussion afterall.

"Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 09:17, 2 October 2019 (MDT)"

I'm seconding Voided's comment. Changes like these need to be discussed before being implemented. This page has a pretty high traffic of people and changes such as this can impact the experience or players using this class. "Kiralokiin (talk) 18:20, 2 October 2019 (BST)"

I would rather have it limited to one Kekkei Genkai rather than no limit, but I wasn't sure how that would go over, which is why I put the Three Limit. That being said, I would gladly change it to a One Limit, since that encourages more creativity with the use of jutsus. Having shinobi in the game is fun, until you get the Sharingan User who can use Ice, Wood, and Explosion to accidentally kill all their teammates. I also have a roll list to help with choosing Chakra Nature and Kekkei Genkai

1-3 Earth, 5-7 Fire, 9-11 Water, 13-15 Lightning, 17-19 Wind , and 4,8,12,16 or 20 allows you to choose a Kekkei Genkai If you get a kekkei genkai you can either choose the one that would fit between the chakra natures your number is in between, or with permission just pick an entirely different kekkai genkai, though it should have at least one of the adjacent natures -ReaperSRS

I agree with ReaperSRS, having a Kekkei Genkai is a bloodline trait. Kekkei Genkai are supposed to be special, not a way for everyone to get them. So you should make it to where the Kekkei Genkai are special bloodline traits, or like Reaper has put a roll list which seems really reasonable. -Nadarrio

A long as the Kekkei Genkai only counts for Nature Transformations (as in, not counting the subclass options) then I don't mind. It would be very limiting, and completely change the flow of the class but could be interesting. We could possibly add a mechanic/feat for unlocking an extra one too (like an artificial implant, similar to the Hashirama Cells).

However, picking a chakra nature through a roll as the class originally was shouldn't be a thing as it takes player agency away. Let the players pick their elements with level progression then get a single Kekkei Genkai fitting their combined chakra natures as it would work in the show. The issue with that, is Kekkei Genkai weren't limited in the show. And while this is D&D, this class is also best used for a Naruto focused campaign so it wouldn't be that unbalanced if every player uses that class.

Alternatively, we could add a subtext at the start of the class regarding an optional class rule involving the single kekkei genkai mechanic, that way everyone is happy and the DM gets to pick what they prefer.

Either way, it's a major change that needs to be considered by everyone taking part in the class edits, so I recommend waiting a couple weeks or so until most active editors have said their piece on this change.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 15:40, 4 October 2019 (MDT)

If it's a single limitation, than subclass Kekkei Genkai wouldn't be included in that limit. But the whole point of the roll list is to give the starting element, and after that, leave it up to choice. But Kekkei Genkai WERE limited in the show. Anyone with more than one kekkei genkai had a kekkei tota, and even then it was rare they could use more than one kekkei genkai. Bloodline traits can't just be learned, and almost all kekkei genkai are bloodline traits. It also wouldn't that be limiting, since you still have 3 chakra natures at level 2, and 5 by the time you're level 20. If it's limited at the beginning, it's not unfair, it's called "How A Game Works". Especially one involving level progression. -ReaperSRS

Right, my point was that there is no explicit limit to how many Kekkei Genkai a person can have; for example Terumī Mei has 2 (Lava and Vapour). I'm aware that they can't be learned, but that doesn't mean the character can't realise they have 3 or 4 different Kekkei Genkai at a later point. I get where you're coming from, but there is no limit in the source material so putting one in a fan-service class doesn't make much sense. There are people bound to agree with either of us, which is why I recommended adding an optional rule at the start of the class for the DMs to think about.

Also, a roll at the beginning to pick your starting element still isn't a good idea. The whole point of creating a character is for a player to play the way they want it to. Otherwise you might as well give them a pre-generated character. Let them pick their own elements. That or write it so that the player can choose between rolling or just picking what they want, as it's done for backgrounds and such for example.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 16:18, 4 October 2019 (MDT)

See you say that as if rolling for a choice and having to go based off that result is somehow more limiting than choosing what you use, and it isn't. First of all, anyone who doesn't like what they roll is going to choose anyway, or just re-roll. Second of all, with how full this list is, anyone who doesn't have an apt understanding of this material is either going to be confused by a lot of it. I should know, I've been doing a campaign with only this class and half the players are that exact type of person. So having a roll being what decides for them allows them to focus on what they get, rather than forcing them to become experts at what they're looking at. Third of all, the roll allows less of a chance of repeat characters being in the same campaign, by making sure that it would be rare for two people to be the exact same. Also, there's enough Paths to choose from that rolling for your chakra nature isn't actually a burden. Also, are you serious? Kekkei Genkai Nature Changes aren't just gonna lay dormant in someone till they're older. That's not how it works in the series. Kekkei Genkai are so dangerous in the source material because they show up early, and cause a lot of trouble. That's why they're feared and usually hated. Paths already accomplish what you've described, given that by their acquisition, a character is only developing the traits of most of the paths at level three. For those Kekkei Genkai paths, the leveling wait makes sense, given it's the characters development that produces the path. But Chakra nature is technically there from birth, and is definitely obvious when building and releasing non focused shakra, as most with Nature kekkei genkai do when first discovering their powers. Finally, the point of having things explicitly and specifically written down isn't just for the Player, it's for the Dungeon Master. The limits are there for the same reason. You want to call things unnecessary, and yet yourself said that because of how it was worded as "Generic Object" the substitution jutsu could use anything on the person. By your own reasoning, the wiki shouldn't have to say Log/Generic Object, because it could just say "Any item on your character." But that kind of thinking is why a lot of these homebrew ideas aren't allowed in regular games, because they're unspecific and the lack of limits allows them to be broken. A Dungeon Master can be persuaded to let a player bypass the rolling rule anyway, because you're right, it's a small thing to choose ONE chakra nature. But just getting the choice to pick a Kekkei Genkai, which will give THREE chakra natures, Four if you count Basic, is like letting a cleric pick two domains. It's not fair to the other classes. But making it based on chance, like every other important decision in this game, completely shuts down that problem. You're just going to keep editing it back to how you like, which is fine. You have the choice to do that, and at this point, it's not worth trying to make sure I have the last edit. But keep in mind that this is for a game based on dealing with results and finding ways to work with them. If you take away all limits and make it easier, it's just another broken class that leaves no room for actual challenge.

  -ReaperSRS

We're writing up this class with the assumption that players will be fair and roll at the table, like they should for everything during character creation. And balancing something with the assumption that players will cheat says a lot about how you play. Either way, that's irrelevant. As I've offered a clear and easy compromise yet you seem dead set on making sure things go your way instead of the good way. I have a lot more to say about your wall of text, but instead I'll repeat my compromise and hope that you actually address that as the important point instead of getting clearly aggressive.

For everyone else reading as well, here's the compromise I'm offering:

Add a subtext at the start of the class with the following optional rule:

"This class offers freedom of choice regarding some abilities the same way spellcasting classes offer freedom to decide which spells you pick (limited by your class' spells list). However, you and/or the DM may want a more realistic approach in character creation where the character gets a random set of abilities at birth instead of ones chosen by the player. Here is an optional rule if this is what you're after:

• In character creation, roll a d6. The results will determine your Chakra Nature at 2nd level.

1	2	3	4	5	6
Earth Style	Fire Style	Lightning Style	Water Style	Wind Style	Kekkei Genkai

Getting a 6 means you are born with a Kekkei Genkai. Roll a d8, the result will be your Kekkei Genkai.

1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Explosive Style	Ice Style	Lava Style	Magnet Style	Scorch Style	Storm Style	Vapor Style	Wood Style

On top of gaining the Kekkei Genkai at 2nd level, you also learn both Chakra Natures required for its use as explained in the Kekkei Genkai's description. (ie. You learn Earth and Lightning on top of Explosive style.)

• You can only have 1 Kekkei Genkai in this optional rule (not including the subclass ones). Learning the required Chakra Natures for a Kekkei Genkai won't let you access its capabilities (ie. If you already have Explosive Style, you cannot learn Storm style even if you have both Water and Lightning styles.

Blaze and Yin Yang style aren't included because of their requirements. In this optional rule, Blaze style is automatically unlocked when either of its requirements are achieved while Yin Yang would have to be chosen at 15th level as usual."

^This is the optional rule written as it would be posted at the start of the class. Feel free to let me know if you have issues with this compromise.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 19:00, 4 October 2019 (MDT)

See, you call this your compromise, but it isn't. You've obviously worded it to make it sound as if this is a bad idea, and by making it two different rolls, added a layer of complication that wasn't necessary. Also, for someone so hellbent on compromise, you're quick to forget my original idea, which was to do a limit of three Kekkei Genkai instead of just one. It was YOU who offered up the idea to just limit it to one, and I agreed with that, while also supplying that roll list to help. In return, you began to respond as if I was trying to force that roll list on every user of this class, when my exact words were "I also have a roll list to help with choosing Chakra Nature and Kekkei Genkai", the key words being "To Help". Speaking of that roll list, you didn't even incorporate it into your supposed compromise, instead making one where the chances of getting a Kekkei Genkai are even less than they were with my own. Now, since you want to make assumptions about my style of play, why don't I just assume that you've never played online as a Dungeon Master, where you can't manage every one's rolls and have to assume that you're dealing with at least 20% of the rolls being given by players to be fake. I also can't trust what you put down because you've decided to call your way the "Good" way, while referring to my own as my own, but obviously meaning "Not Good". Had you simply called it your way, I could've accepted this useless and biased "Compromise", because it would at least mean the options would be implanted in the wiki. But seeing as you've decided to call your own way the "Good" way, I can't accept it.

My own compromise, without the use of fancy effects because to be honest, I don't care enough to learn them when I doubt I'll have reason to use them, is that we limit Kekkei Genkai that are granted by Chakra Nature to Three, and that in the quick build section, we place My roll list, which only requires the standard D20 to be rolled once, or however many times a player wants to until they get what they want, given that that's the same way most Ability Scores are rolled up. You roll up 6 scores, and if you don't like them, Re-roll for a new set. It's nothing new to any Table Top RPG player, and it still makes it optional. It also doesn't force a player to bend to any of those extra rules you added, just to make it more "Realistic" by whatever standards you had in mind at the time of typing that.

Oh, and because I'm doing this for my players and party members, I'd be remiss if I didn't have some kind of line about how your decisions make me question your knowledge of the source material and your experience in this game, given that your words give off the vibe of an intellectual who works far too hard on being an authority on user generated topics than actually playing the game. I enjoy debates with those who can keep on target, and honestly you jump around topics like an Airbender fighting Toph. I can't tell if you actually enjoy debating or just don't like being told you are wrong, but if it's the former, than I expect you to show a little more class when arguing with someone who hasn't insulted you. Say it as diplomatically as you want, but calling someone a cheater just because they've learned to expect deception is a dumb-ass move for someone who has never played with me as a player or a Dungeon Master. If it's the latter, than get the hell over it and understand that as someone with authority, even the small amount that you have, you need to put aside your own pride and use logic as your sword and shield, not just your blanket. My players read this and inform me of the changes, and lately some of them have been feeling angered by what you say. I tell you this not because it'll affect you, not because I believe it'll change anything you say, but because I want you to understand why every time you make a mistake that I know of, I'm going to jump on it. And until enough people put their own opinions here and state that your way is the "Good" way, show some humility, and accept that you could be wrong. And before you try to say I myself haven't done that, you should realize that I actually am waiting for more people to give their opinion, instead of going into the wiki and editing it to what I think it should be. In case it wasn't as clear as the last time, this part was totally aggressive. I can't wait to read your reply, because I hope it's a better argument than your others. -ReaperSRS

I haven't worded the optional rule to frame it as a bad idea, I worded it to describe what it literally is. If you think it makes it look bad, then feel free to recommend a rewording. The two different rolls may seem complicated but they are just two different rolls, and in the end aren't any more complicated than the original rolls you copy pasted. Which by the way, you are quick to call ownership to when you didn't even create them (they came with the original class). As for lowering the Kekkei Genkai chance, not only did you argue that they were rare but starting with a Kekkei Genkai gives that player an extreme advantage. That alone is good reason to lower the chances.

Due to your irrelevant argument on my experience, I'm just going to point out that I have over a decade's worth of D&D Experience, and almost as much of GMing (again, irrelevant but just pointing this out since you raised that point).

As for the "Good" way argument, you're acting extremely petty and immature. Your only reason for not accepting it is because I said it was good? Grow up.

I understand your original idea was to limit it to 3, but our first conversation moved that idea to a single Kekkei Genkai instead and we both agreed to it. Hence I expanded on that idea with the optional rule.

This is irrelevant to the class, but the way you mentioned rolling for Ability Scores is wrong by the way. You don't roll d20s, it's 4d6 and drop the lowest. And if you allow your players to infinitely re-roll when they don't like their stats then you might as well just let them pick the numbers they want. I'm not sure how good of a DM you are because of the mechanics you seem to use, but if your players enjoy it then who am I to judge?

I'm not gonna take your numerous baits on that last paragraph, but I did enjoy the Avatar: The Last Airbender reference. Glad to see another fan.

I imagine this debate isn't going to end anytime soon, so I'd like to recommend we stop here to let others say their piece. Respond to this if you need to, but I'll say it right now:

To make sure others can say what they have in mind without being forced to read a whole book's worth of debates, I'm gonna stop responding on this subject until someone other than the two of us say what they have to say (or until at least 2 weeks pass, whichever one happens first.)

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 17:03, 5 October 2019 (MDT)

Right, as this discussion has progressed more into an argument rather than anything productive, I want to remind you both to follow etiquette rules before name-calling and accusing anyone of being "biased".

However, I do want to voice my opinion as well. The three Kekkei Genkai limit was redundant to begin with. With the current amount of Nature Transformations (assuming it doesn't exponentially increase in the future) a character was only allowed a maximum of three Kekkei Genkai to begin with. A character has three natures maximum, each Kekkei Genkai is a combination of two natures (with the exception of Wind + Lightning, which doesn't have a corresponding Nature Transformation). Its simple maths, really.

So now we've established that the Kekkei Genkai soft cap was already there to begin with, great. So actually specifying it is not needed.

However, if you all still feel like there should be a change, I recommend working on Voided's current proposal as (so far) it seems to be the most concrete plan. Otherwise, leave the changes as they were and, I ask this as kindly as possible, please stop bickering.

- Kiralokiin (talk) 04:02, 6 October 2019 (MDT)

See, your argument would be correct if there was no option for a character to start off with a Kekkei Genkai Nature. But because players can, they already begin with Two Natures, then receive Two more from leveling. Including the first Kekkei Genkai, this results in a player having access to Six Kekkei Genkai.

This seems odd, but it's easy to understand if you see it like this: Chakra Nature will be represented by A, B, C, and D. A kekkei genkai will be represented by the two letter's being placed together, like AB. With the four given letters, you are able to create: AB AC AD BC BD CD, representing the Six Kekkei Genkai.

Why is this possible? Because there is no specific rule on whether you get both component natures automatically if you choose a Kekkei Genkai, so in all the times where I've seen players with kekkei genkai at level 2, they have Three Natures. Add in that there is no explicit, specific limit on Kekkei Genkai, and it results in the example I have given. The simple math that you were mentioning is correct, but only if a player is only starting with One Nature. I would not like to limit players to One Nature at the beginning, which is why I stand by the decision to propose placing a limit to Three Kekkei Genkai. This way, those users who start with one nature are not overshadowed by those users who start with three natures. And if it was something that was to be assumed, then what is the harm in putting it down? The only ones that rule affects are those who are currently like the example I've given, using Four Chakra Natures and Six Kekkei Genkai at level 15, and it simply makes it fair for those who are gaining the Chakra natures in the way you mentioned.

I apologize to Voided Essence for not honoring his Two Week waiting period in regards to this issue, but I hope they understand that as this is the first time I've been able to go into this aspect of my argument for the Three Nature Limit, I couldn't stop myself. -ReaperSRS

Right, I see the problem now. I don't think you actually understand how the Chakra Natures work at this moment, so let me explain, in case you're having trouble. The 2nd level 'Chakra' feature clearly states that, at 2nd level, you gain the ability to use Basic Ninjutsu and ONE Chakra Nature choice between Earth, Fire, Lightning, Wind or Water. This initial choice also gives you affinity with the Nature.

A Kekkei Genkai can only be unlocked and used once you attain BOTH the prerequisites of Chakra Natures by choosing the respective Natures at 2nd, 8th and 15th. You cannot learn a Kekkei Genkai using the Chakra Feature, only normal Nature Styles (Earth, Fire, Lightning, Wind or Water). You also don't learn the required Chakra Natures by choosing a Kekkei Genkai, if that's the case in your campaign.

This means that you can only choose a maximum of three Natures (One at 2nd level, one at 8th level and one at 15th level). And since the Kekkei Genkai have two prerequisites, you can only attain a maximum of three Kekkei Genkai through mixing the Nature Styles. I won't discuss Subclass Kekkei Genkai like the Sharingan, since those work as the subclass itself and have their own mechanics. Those are irrelevant to the subject at hand. If you're still having trouble understanding how it works, let me know and I can try to clear it up for you. On the other hand, I do realise that the issue seems to be happening due to your own ruling, at your own table. If you decided to go against what the class advises and give your players two natures to start with instead than the standard one nature, then you're at fault for your players having Kekkei Genkai at 2nd level.

I recommend sorting this issue at your table and make no further changes to the class due to a personal perspective of your own game.

- Kiralokiin (talk) 10:46, 6 October 2019 (MDT)

The amount of Bait in your argument is surprising given your previous call for etiquette and a lack of Bias. Thankfully, you have proven you're not on anyone's side, given that your argument actually goes against Voided's compromise. See, in their compromise, they mention that the special rules change the number of Kekkei Genkai that someone can have to just one, but it also clearly states that choosing to have a kekkei genkai at level 2 is perfectly acceptable and normal by the regular rules as well. The only difference is limiting Kekkei Genkai to one and Rolling for said chakra natures. You're wrong about the page actually specifying that you can't pick a kekkei genkai by the way, as it clearly does not say such a thing. Besides this part, I'm going to say that so far my arguments with Voided have at least felt like intellect based debates meant to come to a conclusion that would satisfy both parties. After reading your words though, I feel like the spirit of that debate is gone, ruined by someone who could barely keep the arrogance out of their words to bend over low enough and explain the chakra natures to my so simple mind. I must say that you've almost made me regret my debate with Voided, as you inserting your unneeded moderation attempts is an insult to both of us.

If you're checking this Voided Essence, I am going to be putting my vote on your compromise to Yay, and ceasing my involvement in this Argument. I hope that the next time you and I have conflicting ideals, we can come to a solution based on reaching a conclusion of respect, and not just cause some random ass hat decides they want to play Moderator. I do this out of respect and for you, because I've already had to rewrite my words several times to not be rude. I would feel guilty is something I said regarding them were to seem directed at you, someone who doesn't bring several words to my mind regarding hygiene practice, mating, and feces eating. Peace out ^_^ -ReaperSRS

I don't really see any bait in my words, to be honest with you. But if you want to bite it, go for it. But considering that you're calling a "bait" out after being called a baiter yourself, it just makes me believe you're parroting words. If you're seeing arrogance in any of my statements, I apologise, but its all a figure of your imagination.

Regarding the ruling for Kekkei Genkai, the actual wording that the feature uses is: "At 2nd, 8th, and 15th level, you choose a Chakra Nature." Kekkei Genkai are not Chakra Natures and, therefore, do not apply to the feature. However, it does say: "You gain a Kekkei Genkai nature after getting both required Chakra Natures." Meaning that the minimum level to get a Kekkei Genkai would be 8th, after acquiring the second prerequisite Chakra Nature of a Kekkei Genkai.

And, as I've said before, if you've encountered an issue due to a table rule you've set at your own table, sort it out with your players. Don't involve the rest of the users here with your misunderstanding. That said, I'm glad you've come to an understanding with something.

- Kiralokiin (talk) 12:12, 6 October 2019 (MDT)

So i have read all of the debates and i have came to my conclusion on the argument, i have also read up on all Kekkei Genkai on Naruto Fandoms etc. I also have rewatched the whole Naruto Franchise recently so i can say D&D wise and Naruto wise how it works.

'Naruto wise the only person with more than 1 Kekkei Genkai was the Mizukage Mei which had 2 Kekkei Genkai, 3 chakra natures and a Kekkei Tota. I'm not going to be going in detail on which she had or didn't have. But i will go in to detail that she was the only one 'born' with 2 Kekkei Genkai she didn't gain them by getting the Chakra Natures. Hence why Kekkei Genkai are supposed to be limited to a maximum of 3-4 or as a user stated 1 on birth. On the wiki it says you get a Kekkei Genkai after getting the 2 natures required for it.'

""NOW""

'D&D wise it would be different because DM's can bend the rules to an extent, i agree on a roll list. But i prefer the one that ReaperSRS made, because that way you get a Kekkei Genkai from the two seperate Chakra Nature and even if you don't like it you can just keep rolling or choose one. The roll list isn't a big deal, because someone might want variety. Now back to Kekkei Genkai in game you would have to talk to your DM because if it isn't a Naruto campaign he needs to make a way for it to be approved and useful in the environment it is made for. Kekkei Genkai in game would also be rare because you can't just get it, i like that the wiki says otherwise. But realistically if it is following the show, then it needs to be Limited a Naruto campaign would only have 1 Kekkei Tota 2 Kekkei Genkai and at most 3 Chakra Natures or use the roll table ReaperSRS sent, but if it is a different campaign then use the table that Voided sent. Some Game Mechanics are supposed to be respected in a good manner, because obviously know how it works Kiralokiin. Please explain, but i will not be responding after this message i am sending so keep that in mind if you will be responding to this text.'

'LAST PARAGRAPH' 'Kiralokiin you may have been here for longer than i have, but when you start disrespecting a person then i will step in and go after you specifically. If you are going to go after a person don't use You, Your, You're etc. Be smart and don't use words that attack a person, that's baiting. ReaperSRS didn't attack you nor did he say anything mean about you until YOU attacked HIM, so do keep that in mind before you start spitting uselessness you need to use your words and be a cultural, respectful, nice person online. If you are not that kind of person online then you are a dirtbag, that never had a companion. And yes this is directly going after you, a moderator can edit this, but if someone else edits this then they are infinetly unaware of everything around him, and he needs to get out and find something to do with his life. Also Voided put some good arguments to make me think this way, because both were awesome with their debates.' - Nadarrio the Wizardio, of the Universe (talk) 6th October 2019

Gotta say, I'm further confused as to why either of you seem to think I'm going after anyone or attempting to bait anyone. My previous two edits simply pointed out the reason of confusion in this argument. At no point did I personally attack ReaperSRS. As the issue is clearly coming from his own decisions at his table, I see no other way to address him other than using "You, Your, You're".

I did, however, point out that the issues he was having in his session were due to his own faulty ruling as a DM. His issue was that his players had too many Kekkei Genkai, which he later revealed to be due to the fact that he circumvented the manner of which the class actually works.

Call me a "dirtbag" if you will, but my point is valid and stands. And if you think that is "attacking" him, then sure. Pointing out the obvious truth is now counted as attacking. I do see that you're both flustered with the way I've tried to get my point across, so I do apologise.

In terms of the change, I've expressed my opinion: the Three Kekkei Genkai limit is unneeded as it already is present as a soft cap. Otherwise I've agreed to work on Voided's alternative. - Kiralokiin (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2019 (MDT)

You know, I'm getting really fucking tired of you insinuating that my wants for the limits is based on my own players, when I'm talking about players I've played with as a Player myself that have made the issue clear to me. My players have actually been pretty good at doing right by the wiki, and I'm not gonna sit here and let you keep saying shit like this. You wanna see how good of a DM I am? Join a game. Otherwise, shut the fuck up and mind your own business. I'm done giving you the courtesy of being treated with respect. You wanna sit hear and argue against my points? Go the fuck ahead. But stop making assumptions about my players and me. At least when Voided did it, he had the decency to base it off something that made sense, which was my belief that 20 times out of a hundred when you're not playing in person you're going to get fake rolls. MY players actually haven't gotten to the Multiple Kekkei Genkai point yet, which is why I wanted to make sure of things before they did. So before you reply, understand that I was already done with this, and it's your repeated fucking shit that's brought me back. I hope the next time you decide to speak at me, you remember your own fucking call to etiquette, or at least figure out how to properly say shit in a way that doesn't make you look like an arrogant ass shit-talker. In case you don't understand, this is me getting aggressive. Go ahead and report me or whatever it is you do as a volunteer moderator piece of shit, but don't pull that fake apology shit again. You have shown no reason to believe you have any integrity to put faith in. You may have given your two cents here, but you haven't said shit regarding your buff to the substitution, leaving Void to defend it for you while you come down here and try to moderate us.

And to Nadario? Thank you for your words, but I will point out that others have been born with Kekkei Tota and multiple Kekkei Genkai, we just don't get to really hear about them in the Manga/Anime. Not even the databooks really mention any, though Particle/Dust style is considered to be another one. That being said, I don't think Kekkei Totas are going to be added, because there's not enough to off of with them. -ReaperSRS

Its funny how you bring etiquette into this since, so far, you're the only one that has gotten mildly aggressive to any degree in their "arguments". Which definitely comes to show how much integrity your opinion has.

All of the issues you brought up are irrelevant to this argument, either way. For example: Fake rolls can be solved by using a client such as Roll20 (its free, go check it out). The fact you feel "attacked" by my words is how you decided to interpret them, regardless of how I meant them. Your skill as a DM is none of my concern, but considering that, and I say this once again, your ruling allowed them the possibility to have Kekkei Genkai at 2nd level, this is an issue you need to work out with your own players, rather than bring into discussion with unrelated parties.

I've also looked into your and Nadario's post history. Not only does he only reply to threads you respond to, he replies within minutes of you, and all things considered he simply looks like an alt account of yours, or possibly one of your players. This could be the case, or maybe not. Either way, I don't care.

And, for the last time, at no point have I ever persecuted you or your players. I have not criticised you or your players, or your DM style, nor do I care how you handle your rules. I've pointed out the parts where you have clearly misunderstood and you've ignored my points by choosing to tirelessly screech frivolous insults at your screen. That said, I do hope you use those points to work our your issues with this class.

As for the Substitution issue, I have no input to add. My change to it was minimal and I am indifferent on further changes until I form an opinion worthy of noting.

Either reply to this thread with something constructive, or don't reply at all. I am uninterested in reading anymore of your facile arguments, so please keep your cool and act like an adult.

My current remarks stand. So before either of you accuse anyone else of "attacking" anybody, have a read as to how you've been responding to people's comments and judge your own character before accusing others. Needless to say, its pathetic.

- Kiralokiin (talk) 16:58, 6 October 2019 (MDT)

I appreciate everyone for their input. But I'd just like to point out that despite his harsh words, Kiralokiin is correct on the subject of fake rolls and not being able to pick a Kekkei Genkai at the start (it specificially mentions that in the "Chakra" part of the class). So this whole situation may just have been due to a misunderstanding, which is fair enough. Either way, I do appreciate your vote of confidence ReaperSRS, even if it was caused by a 3rd party argument and hope that we can indeed come to understandings in the future, assuming this situation repeats itself.

As for Nadarrio, I understand Kiralokiin was a bit harsh with his words when clearing the confusion but in the end he was correct. As for limiting the Kekkei Genkai, as far as I know there is no actual canon limitation to how many a person can have (as ReaperSRS mentioned about Kekkei Tota and Genkai), and a character having a small number does not mean all characters are limited by that amount. Which is clear that you understand and acknowledge that since you want to limit it to a number higher than Mei. My reasoning for instead having an optional limit to 1 is that the character should either be limited to what most other canon characters have or have the freedom to be as epic as they want to be (within reason obviously. Giving a character unlimited chakra for example, isn't reasonable.).

Now I don't agree with your reasoning for limiting Kekkei Genkai. If a DM decides that the players should be limited to a certain amount (or have an increased amount) of Kekkei Genkai in their world, then that is up to them. But we shouldn't make the decision of limiting it to "1 Kekkei Tota 2 Kekkei Genkai and at most 3 Chakra Natures" if the campaign follows the show, especially since the actual series doesn't have a canon limit. Hence leaving it with no limit is the best option, and if a DM wants to limit it themselves then they are free to do it at their own table (without having to force it on all the 100s of other tables that will be using this class). The reason I made this optional rule is to hopefully give an alternative choice of playstyle without making it such a small change that there's no point in writing it in the first place. In the end, I think leaving the Chakra mechanic as it currently is, is for the best. And putting an optional rule can be done if absolutely necessary.

I see there are two people so far that have agreed with me (1 of which was reluctant), and while I'd rather listen to everyone else's opinion I'm glad I didn't have to wait 2 weeks for it. I'm open to other ideas, but for the sake of not writing a whole book I'd rather this debate end soon. So for this reason, I'll implement the optional rule in two weeks with the addition of a new section named "Optional Rules" where we can add these sort of game changing rules without forcing them on other tables.

I'd also like to remind everyone involved to return and focus to the subject at hand, and please stop arguing. We're all civilised here (I hope), so we can have a calm and sensible debate without having to jump at each others' throats.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 17:29, 6 October 2019 (MDT)

I'll be adding an extra Kekkei Genkai as well as an extra section for Homebrew Jutsus (jutsus that aren't officially in the series, something that fans think of) alongside the Optional Rules section in the Sunday update. They will all be placed at the bottom of the page so it doesn't clog the class right at the start. Just letting everyone know so it doesn't come out of nowhere.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 16:18, 18 October 2019 (MDT)