https://www.dandwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Wesinator5&feedformat=atomD&D Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T18:33:14ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.8https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Most_Unbalanced_Class&diff=320532Discussion:Most Unbalanced Class2009-01-29T19:32:42Z<p>Wesinator5: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Which base class do you think is most unbalanced? == <br />
I believe that the Monk is too powerful. Maybe if the unarmed damage was lessened... That would also increase the usefulness of monk weapons. <br />
A level 1 Monk with 14 Dex and 14 Wis, and Mage Armor and Shield cast on him=22 AC. Mage Armor and Shield scrolls= 50GP.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>14:05, 19 October 2008 (MDT)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
You're joking, right? The Monk is the weakest class in the core books, and one of the weakest classes in the game. You might want to read up on the rules that you're trying to use...namely, Shield, which is a personal-only spell which means that you cannot cast it on other people, and it cannot be made into a potion.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>14:19, 19 October 2008 (MDT)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Probably the [[SRD:Wizard|Wizard]]. The class itself isn't unbalanced; the spells are. [[SRD:Druid|Druids]] and [[SRD:Cleric|Clerics]] are also not too shabby. Clerics, for instance, can do sneaking a lot better than a rogue using the trickery domain (Invisibility + Silence is a sweet combo).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>14:22, 19 October 2008 (MDT)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
The Rogue isn't just a sneak-based character, though. The whole point of the Rogue is to reliably drop one enemy a round, which is something it does pretty well. The Cleric can't always accomplish that (the key word here is reliably).<br />
<br />
Yeah, the Wizard is definitely the most unbalanced class.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>14:30, 19 October 2008 (MDT)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
My point is that one things Rogues are known for, a Cleric can do better. Optimizing any spellcaster will always yield better results than any other class: spellcasting is inherently too powerful. Dropping an opponent in one round is surely easier with an optimized Cleric than an optimized Rogue.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>23:58, 27 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Spellcasting is overpowered only at very high levels, or in the hands of indulgent DMs who do not put pressure on the main weakness of the spellcasters -- the ease with which they can be killed.<br />
<br />
At the higher levels, monks certainly outperform all of the other fighting classes and with levels in Psionic Fist, they poach spellcasters' territory as well. The difficulty is in getting them there. Monks are not weak at the lower levels per se, but you have to use their speed and agility and stay out of stand-up fights.<br />
<br />
Especially with the Eberron rules, the higher-level monk can get pretty broken. It's the unarmed combat damage; no other damage in the game scales like that. I'm sure they'll change it in 4e. Not doing anything too weird, bread-and-butter stuff only, a Monk 6/Psionic Fist 9/Warshaper 1/Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 4 with, Improved Natural Attack, a Monk's Belt and an Ectoplasmic Fist (total cost, 20,000gp) can ''Metamorphosis'' into a size G Wyvern and use an enhanced ''Expansion'' to get to Colossal plus. Base damage: 64d8 (48d8 if size damage is capped at Colossal) ([[Ultimate Monk (DnD Optimized Character Build)#Empty-hand Strike Damage|I made a table.]])<br />
<br />
Still, there are people who will tell you the monk is underpowered. In their games, that may be true. But I think for the most part it's just a question of whether you know how to build one and run one.<br />
<br />
<br />
you want unbalanced just use the Book of Vile Darkness and it's counter Part The Book of Divine something, either way the apostle of peace can have 42 ac Dr10/- and Fh/5 by level 12, and the BoVD spells are exorbitantly rigged.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Sleaker|Sleaker]] 00:41, 28 January 2009 (MST) ===<br />
saying a class (monk) is powerful because you can gain the abilities of another class (Psionic Warrior) completely defeats the purpose of saying that class is powerful. The only reason why the Monk has any chance when you take Core sources (SRD, etc) is because you add Psionics on it. But then you are suggesting tradeoffs, if you think the Monk is good when you add a psionic class to it, or can take two feats and stack a psionic classes progression with a monk progression and claim it to still be a 'monk' you are mistaken. The idea is that you have to take so many extra abilities, and features that weren't already built into the class to make it good. Nearly all of the monk builds suffer from one giant problem: they deal physical damage only, and rely on Melee strikes.This does a few things: <br><br />
firstly, monk BAB is already bad, when you multiclass into casters to give them more power, it just gets worse. <br> <br />
Second: I can't stress how many of the higher CR monsters have some form of evasion mechanic that makes it quite difficult to enter into melee, or to stay out of reach of a melee character. <br><br />
Third: You always have the issue of dealing with concealment, miss chances, ethereal, incorporeal, and magical invisibilities, but unlike spellcasters you have much less options to deal with them. <br><br />
Fourth: Your role is SEVERLY limited. You can do only one thing, and one thing good. Smack something in melee. But this can be done generally more effectively by say, a Fighter with a spiked chain and trip feats. At least he can control the battlefield a bit more.. Whereas the monk has to put most of his feats and such into making his already bad abilities good.<br><br />
Fifth: AC- Even though monks are built as a melee class they suffer from being incredibly easy to hit compared to most other classes. This generally comes from them needing to have 4 High stats (Wis, Str, Dex, Con) and Int if you want more skills..<br><br />
<br />
Per the post above: Unfortunately BoVD and BoED are not 3.5e, they are 3.0 sourcebooks.<br><br />
<br />
I would have to say that the Favored Soul is probably the most powerful straight base class, Spontaneous divine spells, free deity weapon focus, monk saves. energy resistances, wings and dr to boot. On top of 9th level cleric spells. I don't really see how the Monk can touch this kind of power just straight up.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>08:19, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
What the hell are you talking about, S1Q3T3? Spellcasting is overpowered at every level in the game. Color Spray at level 1 is every bit as good as Wail of the Banshee at level 17. Glitterdust and Web will shut down every level 3 encounter. The list goes on and on and on. As for monks being able to do a little direct damage, who cares? One casting of Telekinesis makes the monk feel small in the pants no matter how much direct damage he can do.<br />
<br />
Also, Sleaker, Clerics are far, far better than Favored Souls. The class features the Favored Soul gets don't really matter that much. Wings come too late to be useful, Energy Resistance and a Weapon Focus are pretty useless. What the Cleric gets, however, is Turning and, in turn, Divine Metamagic. Which lets him persist any spell he cares to. Far more useful than some +1 to hit with your primary weapon.<br />
<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>15:03, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Let's start with Sleaker: '''"saying a class (monk) is powerful because you can gain the abilities of another class (Psionic Warrior) completely defeats the purpose of saying that class is powerful."'''<br />
<br />
Well, no, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. The prestige classes you can access are part of the abilities of the class. A monk with levels of Psionic Fist is still a monk. <br />
<br />
'''"Nearly all of the monk builds suffer from one giant problem: they deal physical damage only, and rely on Melee strikes."'''<br />
<br />
Incorrect. What you are really saying: "I don't know how to do anything with a monk character but (How did you put it?) 'Smack something in melee.'" That's far from the only thing a monk can do.<br />
<br />
'''"I can't stress how many of the higher CR monsters have some form of evasion mechanic that makes it quite difficult to enter into melee, or to stay out of reach of a melee character."'''<br />
<br />
I can't stress enough how ineffectual such evasion is when you are dealing with a character who can move hundreds of feet per round and run up walls, when they cannot actually teleport, or fly.<br />
<br />
'''"You always have the issue of dealing with concealment, miss chances, ethereal, incorporeal, and magical invisibilities, but unlike spellcasters you have much less options to deal with them."'''<br />
<br />
Again, this simply reflects your level of expertise in playing a monk. Who has concealment? Flank them. Miss chances? There are any number of powers and items that negate them. And so on.<br />
<br />
'''"Your role is SEVERLY limited."'''<br />
<br />
Now that is the complete opposite of the truth. You want a monk for reconnaissance and espionage. You want them in an ambush. They have the best saves in your party. They laugh at fortifications. They cruise past controllers to eviscerate spellcasters. Whilst still progressing as monks in terms of AC, dmg, and move, they can acquire just about any psionic power they could want.<br />
<br />
Fighters and Barbarians (great classes; I have nothing against them) have a limited role; they hit things with their weapons. Take that away from them, they don't have a lot of options. A monk, in contrast, does.<br />
<br />
'''"AC- Even though monks are built as a melee class they suffer from being incredibly easy to hit compared to most other classes."'''<br />
<br />
Oh, no. Again, that's a matter of how you play the monk. By 6th level they can be enjoying mobility and spring attack, with a high tumble skill; they can attack and be out of reach before an opponent can respond. Fairly soon after that they can charge, make a full attack, and ''Hustle'' to safety. Pretty soon after that, they don't have to get to safety, because with 4-5 attacks dealing a couple hundred points of damage each, no one is alive after the first round.<br />
<br />
Also, the ability to apply Wis to AC is an extremely powerful ability. Two 20s in Dex and Wis are much easier to achieve than a 30 Dex. There are any number of ways to acquire high deflection bonuses and natural armor. But again, the secret to the monk's not being hit is not standing there waiting to get hit. It's mobility and surprise.<br />
<br />
Now let's address the always-calm-and-reasoned Surgo:<br />
<br />
'''"What the hell are you talking about"?'''<br />
<br />
I'm talking about a fantasy role-playing game, Surgo. So are you. No need to get excited.<br />
<br />
'''"Spellcasting is overpowered at every level in the game."'''<br />
<br />
Spellcasting, maybe, but not spellcasters. As I said, it's a function of the DM. Confronting a reasonably intelligent enemy, the spellcaster has a target painted on his back. Say you, for example, are in melee with another party. Who do you want to kill first? A) Who can end the encounter (and you) at any moment? (The caster). Who is likely to be easiest to hit? (The caster). Who is likely to be the least durable, and thus give you the greatest chance of having one less foe to deal with? (The caster.)<br />
<br />
You are going to do everything in your power to kill that guy before he can get a spell off. And your chances of success are pretty good. <br />
<br />
If you don't lose a fair proportion of your low-level spellcasters to this sort of reasoning, your DM, consciously or not, is coddling you. Ten hit points, and you're going to stand there and cast a spell as a standard action? I'll tell you this, a monk is never going to let you get away with that. Better win initiative every round, and run for your life when you get your spell off (which is, in essence, what the low-level monk does, being far better equipped to do so.)<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]]&nbsp;<small><small>15:54, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Alright, hypothetical situation. Wizard has Celerity and Foresight active, so he ends up winning initiative. Wizard uses maximize metamagic rod to cast time stop. During his four rounds, he gets close and casts forcecage and dimensional lock. Wizard has two hours per level to do whatever he wants to the monk, probably consisting of a bunch of cloudkills or other fortitude/will partial effects. Meanwhile, the monk has absolutely no way of getting out.<br />
<br />
Also: by your logic of PrCs being part of the base class, paladin is the strongest class in the game (thanks to the level 1 Pun-Pun).<br />
<br />
===[[User:SteelOrochu|SteelOrochu]]===<br />
Cool, you can have a faster then needed monk, but lets go straight class level 20. A well equiped Warlock with the buffs he should readily have can take on a monk any day with about much difficulty as normal player versus player would have. But so this isn't another argument about how monks are deffinatly not the almighty class, my vote for most broken class is warlock. <br />
You touch attack dragons for damage for a good chunk of damage. With his attack buffed right he can do more on a hideous blow.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]]&nbsp;<small><small>16:07, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
Warlock are not broken. They are viable imo (even there they are so so, they are good crafters however). The most powerful class is archivist, at least that what I tend to believe. (Cloistered Cleric is also very very good).<br />
<br />
===[[User:SteelOrochu|SteelOrochu]]===<br />
I'm just throwing my opinion, anything that can his a dragon without having to get within its reach has some power.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]]&nbsp;<small><small>18:22, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Oh yeah and on a side note, BOVD and BOED are 3e not 3.5e. <br />
<br />
=== [[User:Daniel Draco|Daniel Draco]]&nbsp;<small><small>18:44, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
BoVD is 3.0. BoED is 3.5<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>19:32, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
That's amazing, Draco; your hypothetical situation is almost exactly the plan I came up with myself in imagining how an arcane spellcaster might take on a high-level monk. See [[Ultimate Monk (DnD Optimized Character Build)/Highlights|here]] (third combat example). It has the force cage, time stop, everything. I guess the moral of the story is, there aren't that many ways to go about defeating a high-level monk.<br />
<br />
I looked up ''Foresight''; it doesn't give you an initiative bonus. I can't find ''Celerity,'' could you shoot me a link? I don't know what the bonus is, but it would have to be pretty ferocious to grab initiative from a monk who (if he is wise) has been obsessively buffing his initiative bonus from day one.<br />
<br />
You've given your Wizard an active 9th-level spell, as well as a powerful magic item. What could you come up with for the monk? That's the first question (Since we both independently came up the with ''Forcecage'' idea, I'm starting to think monks should invest in a ''Rod of Cancellation.'') Now, think about things like this: cage or cube? Presumably cage, since you are casting cloudkills through it. But now you have a host of problems. If your opponent has taken even a single level in Drunken Master, he can kill you with a matchstick flung through the bars (his improvised weapons, range increment 10 ft., do unarmed strike damage + 1d4). Watch out for that. You haven't antimagic'd him, so he could simply assume a Fine form via ''Metamorphosis'' and exist the cage. Even simpler: use [[SRD:Ectoplasmic Form|Ectoplasmic Form]] and just walk out. And so on.<br />
<br />
<br />
Also, you can't use a straight ''Dimensional Anchor''; it's a targeted spell (ranged touch attack), and "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell." You'd have to turn it into an area effect spell somehow first.<br />
<br />
So it's far from an open-and-shut thing. I have a healthy respect for high-level arcane spellcasters; no one is saying they are weak. Neither is a well-optimized monk.<br />
<br />
As for prestige class: you can think whatever you want, although for the record, I did not say "PrCs [were] part of the base class." I said that the PrCs you get access to are part of a class' benefits. That seems obvious to me. How many people in 3.5e go twenty levels in one base class? Talk about your hypotheticals.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:53, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Everyone dies at level 1 if they lose initiative and get hit by someone else, it doesn't really matter their class. Life is cheap at level 1, no matter who you are. But a Color Spray will still end an encounter in one blow. So will any number of spells at any level in the game.<br />
<br />
I fail to see why you are so stuck on Monks as being any good. You have one trick, which is a little direct damage. A trick that any Wizard can beat with a single casting of Telekinesis. Meanwhile, the Wizard can also do any number of other things thanks to spellcasting. What's really hilarious is how the Wizard can actually beat the iconic grapplers (including the Monk) at every level -- including ''level 1''!<br />
<br />
Also, the matchstick example is pretty much failed. A Wizard who takes both the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil prestige class to full (7) and Incantatrix to merely level 3 (something I always do, at least) can persist a personal disintegrate warding and have any such thrown weapon disintegrated and destroyed before it actually hits.<br />
<br />
A high-level fight could go down any number of ways: the Wizard casts Maze, the Wizard uses that irresistible dance spell if the other side lacks mind-affecting immunity, the Wizard uses Telekinesis and a portable hole full of shrunken alchemist's fire to do enough direct damage to kill anything in the game...the options are pretty much endless here.<br />
<br />
Note that Rods of Cancellation only effect items, not persistent effects. Stupid, yeah, but that's the RAW for you.<br />
<br />
There's a reason I say Monks are weak. And that's because they are outclassed by something else at every level in the game. Even if you can do enough direct damage to maybe make an enemy take you seriously at level 20, you're at the point where you're going to need some more options to cut it. And you're even outclassed at direct damage.<br />
<br />
Something else I noted: the idea of Monks having good saves. Straight monks have saves that are merely passable. If you want to have actually ''good'' saves, you need to multiclass a '''lot'''.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>22:12, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''Everyone dies at level 1 if they lose initiative and get hit by someone else, it doesn't really matter their class.'''<br />
<br />
You really don't see the difference between six hit points and sixteen, or AC 22 and AC 14? You must. <br />
<br />
'''But a Color Spray will still end an encounter in one blow.'''<br />
<br />
Do they not use saving throws in your game? C'mon. You just got done saying any encounter with a 1st-level character could end with one blow. So what's so special about Color Spray? <br />
<br />
'''I fail to see why you are so stuck on Monks as being any good.'''<br />
<br />
Maybe because the people who argue monks are weak clearly don't understand how to play them. Basically, your argument revolves around aggressively asserting that spellcasters are powerful and condemning monks while showing in how you describe them that you don't have the least idea what they can do.<br />
<br />
I might ask why you are stuck on arcanes. I respect other classes and what they can so, but you seem to believe that only the class you like to play can possible be powerful or special. Well, sorry, you're wrong. Your poor wizard would get shredded up one side and down the other by a half-decent monk build. Because wizards are weak? No, because you and your attitude are weak. You don't have the slightest idea what monks can do, and all of your ideas here on how such a combat would go are half-baked wishful thinking.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Note that Rods of Cancellation only effect items, not persistent effects. Stupid, yeah, but that's the RAW for you.'''<br />
<br />
No, this is RAW for you: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation."<br />
<br />
'''There's a reason I say Monks are weak. And that's because they are outclassed by something else at every level in the game.'''<br />
<br />
No, they aren't; it's just that you put all your energy and creativity into thinking up cool things for your arcane spellcaster to try, and you haven't expended one-tenth the effort to see how to do the same thing with the monk class. You're biased, plain and simple. Do you realize that by RAW an ECL 16 Monk/Psionic Fist/Elocater can be wielding his own 9th-level psionic powers? Of course you don't. You've never given it a moments thought. Try. There's a big world out there beyond the arcane spellcaster.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>22:24, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
What's the average will save at level 1? The DC on Color Spray will be anywhere between 14 and 16 normally (int 16 with spell focus up to being a grey elf (int 20) with spell focus), leaving even the best possible will save (2 + 4 for high wisdom) with a 50% chance of dying. And that's the best case. Now run a color spray over an entire group and watch most of them die. That's what's special about color spray -- the fact that it can hose an entire group of people at once. Nothing else at level 1 is capable of doing that, except for maybe Entangle.<br />
<br />
Where are you getting 16 HP at level 1 without being a Barbarian? Where are you getting 22 AC at level 1 ''at all''?<br />
<br />
I do know exactly what monks can do: some direct damage. That's where it starts, and that's where it ends. If you want to talk so candidly about my apparent problems, here is yours: you seem unable to see that not only can other classes do that better, they can also do other things. The reason I am "stuck" on arcanes being the best is because, well, they are -- they can seriously do any trick you could reasonably think of. And they have boatloads of options at every single level in the game. That's level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20. No other class has that sort of versatility and power outside of the Druid.<br />
<br />
You say that a wizard would get shredded by a half-decent monk build, but you provide no backing for this. If you would like to link to a concept of how a battle with a wizard against your Ultimate Monk would go down, feel free to do so, but please do not just assert something.<br />
<br />
Point taken on Rod of Cancellation vs. Forcecage, but I do mean my argument to apply to persistent spell effects in general and not just Forcecage.<br />
<br />
'''Do you realize that by RAW an ECL 16 Monk/Psionic Fist/Elocater can be wielding his own 9th-level psionic powers?'''<br />
<br />
I personally don't believe that build is playable at all levels in the game, so I'm inclined to not care. But I'd like to see how you figure that one (the 9th-level powers).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>22:54, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
This is just what I mean; you give your beloved spellcaster an Int of 20 but assume the highest wisdom you're going to see is an 18. Make them the same, if you're comparing. Keep your Spell Focus feat; the monk will take Improved Initiative, and you won't even get the spell off. If you get lucky with your initiative roll, the monk will take +2 Will (base) + Wis bonus + 1d6 (action point, since as you point out, his life is at sake). Assuming the target's Wisdom and the caster's Int are the same, you will succeed about 30%. Assuming the same Dex, you will win initiative about 30% of the time. But the 9% of the time you get the spell off and it works, it'll be super impressive. Good luck with that.<br />
<br />
It's nice to be able to hit a group of creatures, but it comes at a cost; there is no saving throw for melee attacks. Nor do you run the risk of losing it if you get hit while you're attempting it. And since you can effect a large number of creatures, and are easy to hit and easy to kill, the logical thing for any enemy to do is kill you first.<br />
<br />
'''You say that a wizard would get shredded by a half-decent monk build, but you provide no backing for this. If you would like to link to a concept of how a battle with a wizard against your Ultimate Monk would go down, feel free to do so, but please do not just assert something.'''<br />
<br />
That's rich, Surgo, coming from you. All you do is assert. And I've already linked to a combat example. Why don't you provide some examples of the Wizard at all the levels you specified? Using an optimized monk?<br />
<br />
I've also told you why you, in particular, would get shredded; you think that all a monk can do is "some direct damage." "Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make blind."<br />
<br />
'''I personally don't believe that build is playable at all levels in the game, so I'm inclined to not care.'''<br />
<br />
Well, wouldn't want to disrespect your beliefs by intruding awkward facts, would we?<br />
<br />
<br />
'''But I'd like to see how you figure that one (the 9th-level powers).'''<br />
<br />
It's pretty simple: the level of power you can get via [[SRD:Psychic Chirurgery|Psychic Chirurgery]] is defined as follows: "any level that she can manifest." There are two things needed to manifest a power; knowledge of the power and the ability to pay the point cost. You get knowledge of the power via [[SRD:Thieving Mindlink|Thieving Mindlink]], and you meet the point cost in any number of ways: [[SRD:Overchannel|Overchannel]], a Torc of Power Preservation, and/or Power Link Quori shards. Now you can manifest a 9th-level power. Or any other psionic power. And it gets better. When you get to ECL 21, you can get Epic Manifestation -- and those powers don't even require power points.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]]&nbsp;<small><small>23:03, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Wait monk can't manifest. Obviously. We are not talking about PrC/base class combo, we are talking base classes only. Otherwise Pun Pun annihilate the monk. The omnificier diplomatize the gods in erasing him. So yeah. Monk is a pathetic base class, you can make it good only with a PrC. <br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>23:13, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Sorry, milord, but you're not making the rules here. I've made my views on the matter clear; take them or leave them. <br />
<br />
Monk is not a "pathetic base class." Please don't make blanket assertions without proof; it upsets Surgo.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]]&nbsp;<small><small>23:37, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
You should try to be less offensives please. Also if we talk about a general 36 point build, generic character with average health and starting gold. The monk is below everyone in every single things. His MAD is great, he can't even spear a 18. With average hp (max at first level) and possibly low constitution (by comparing his con with other team tank). He only have between 8 and 10 hp. His AC is lower them a fighter with a breastplate (+5 Armor +0-3 from Dexterity) (+2-3 Dex +1-3 AC Bonus). Basically his AC, Hp, Attack Power well most everything is inferior to other member of the party. He can't rival the rogue skill (not even the cleric if he is a cloistered cleric). And he is a tank, or a melee support (but the rogue outclass him with sneak attack.. and both have mid bab). Now let go to higher level... Rogue enjoy spells with UMD, Cleric enjoy divine might and other powerful spells (making a better tank than the monk). The fighter enjoy his new equipments (oh shinny +2 keen joviar), the arcanist get new uber spells. What the monk get? Dimension Door 1/Day, weaker lay on the hand (low level pally ability), slowfall! that nice, unfortunately it is duplicated by a 1st level wizard/sorcerer spell? Oh yeah unarmed damages! Hey but how I can bypass DR with my crappy Ki Strike? Magic Items made for you, but cost a lot more than the shiny +2 keen joviar. So you get less magic items and shinny stuff (and you deal less damages, look at power attack and the joviar). By level 20 most class can one-shot the monk, one round with the rogue and a flanking friend, one spell from the spellcasters, the only one you can barely match is the fighter... but unfortunately he got a great armor and thus a great AC. You can't hit him with your mid bab and low-average starting stats. Not to mention his sword outclass your fist (and costed a lot less). You see pathetic, of course no Prc or tricky tricks were involved. If you say so then Pun Pun win.<br />
<br />
PS: I am sarcastic to the monk not you, unlike huamns class don't feel emotions. Just don't take it personally.<br />
<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>23:51, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
If you deal out sarcasm, you're going to get it back. I'm sorry if your witty banter looks different to you when the sharp end is pointed the other way.<br />
<br />
Let me try to put it to you in your native language: Pun-Pun no win. Pun Pun stupid. Multiclass/Prc options part of what make class special. They like magic items or special feats. They part of what you chose when you chose class. This my opinion. You no like? OK. You maybe go talk with another someone, maybe enroll to English grammar course online. <br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>23:49, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''"Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make blind."'''<br />
<br />
Then I guess it's an awfully good thing I'm an atheist!<br />
<br />
Here's what a Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 8 (banned school: evocation) / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 can do to defeat your friendly neighborhood Monk shown in combat #3.<br />
<br />
The relevant stats (32 point buy, because I'm not sure what you were using and that seems standard)<br />
<br />
Race: Grey Elf<br />
Str: 6 (8 - 2) base, +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (17)<br />
Dex: 18 base (16 + 2, 10 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (29)<br />
Con: 8 base (10 - 2, 2 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (19)<br />
Int: 20 base (18 + 2, 16 pts), +5 from level-up, +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (36) (mod of +13)<br />
Wis: 10 base (2 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (21)<br />
Cha: 10 base (2 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (21)<br />
Traits: Aggressive (+2 initiative)<br />
<br />
Pertinent equipment: Belt of Magnificence (200k), masterwork tool for spellcraft (50), headband of spellcraft +30 (90k), two orange ioun stones (60k), shapechange focus (1.5k), greater metamagic rod of quicken (175k), pale green ioun stone, normal metamagic rod of twin spell. Some prices are left off because I don't have the books but this is within the wealth limit.<br />
<br />
Pertinent feats used for PrC reqs: Iron Will (lev1), Extend Spell (lev5 bonus) Spell Focus (abjuration) (lev 3), Greater Spell Focus (abjuration) (lev 9), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (lev 6)<br />
Other feats of note: Improved Initiative (lev 12), Persistent Spell (Incantatrix bonus feat), Ocular Spell (Incantatrix bonus)<br />
<br />
Pertinent skills: Concentration 23, Spellcraft 23, Knowledge (Arcana) 23, Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks<br />
<br />
Pertinent other things: by casting Planar Binding many times in a row, our wizard gets an entire room full of Efreets who use their wish powers to give him a +5 inherent bonus to all his stats. We'll stop using it there, because this combat would already be over if we're using the full extent of Wish (for that, see The Wish and the Word).<br />
<br />
Thanks to equipment, synergies, and other stuff, we have a total spellcraft modifier of +70. That's easily enough to make the spellcraft checks required for the Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect ability when making a spell persistent, even a level 9 spell. So we will persist the following spells:<br />
<br />
- Kauper's Skittish Nerves (+5 initiative)<br />
- Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's personal double veil (Violet/Blue).<br />
- Shapechange (turned into a Solar). Since the Solar is a humanoid form, all our gear goes along with it. For those keeping track that pushes Str to 39, Dex to 31, and Con to 31. We also get regeneration, so the monk can't actually kill us. Depending on how you interpret the polymorph rules we have a very good argument for also getting the Solar's cleric spellcasting, just for laughs.<br />
- Overland Flight<br />
- Greater Invisibility<br />
<br />
It's getting late so that's all I've bothered to calculate at the moment. Things of note are initiative of +22, caster level of 22 (so the solar is doable). Any object that passes into our square is automatically disintegrated before hitting us, and anyone that attacks us first has to make two saves of DC 31, Will then Fortitude, the first to avoid being shifted to a random plane and the second to avoid being turned to stone. Since you didn't seem to bother listing the monk's saves on that page, I don't know if these have a good chance of immediately stopping combat or not. I suspect he has a good chance of failing the fortitude save, however.<br />
<br />
Anyway, we have better initiative than the monk, so on average we win. We then use our quickened metamagic rod to give us a quickened Time Stop. If we don't already have a portable hole full of shrunken colossal alchemist's fire, we can use Shades to mimic Major Creation (1 round casting time) to make some, which happens to be 22 cubic feet worth of regular flasks of alchemist's fire. Since the math there is pretty ridiculous, let's just say we already bought 30 flasks of shrunken colossal alchemist's fire (6d6 a piece), and we use a twinned telekinesis to hurl them all at the monk when Time Stop ends. Our to-hit is +23, for a touch attack. We'll be generous and assume that only half of them hit, so that's 90d6 damage, or 315 on average, which is overkill by at least a factor of 2.<br />
<br />
But what if we don't win initiative? It's okay, we have persistent overland flight and greater invisibility. For the Monk to come get us he has to abandon his fast movement speed for a much lower fly speed, and he has to see us to begin with (something I don't see that monk even being able to do). We also have a bunch of other persistent defenses that I didn't bother dumpster diving for right now because it's late and I'm headed to bed. If it matters, I'll look tomorrow.<br />
<br />
Special note: I'm a bit fuzzy on which spells are persistable but, if any spell isn't, we can just combine it with Ocular Spell (still well within reach of our spellcraft check) to make it persistable. You can persist any spell with Ocular Spell.<br />
<br />
edit: I'm not even sure what book Danger Sense is from. If we qualify for it, we'll take that feat too. If for some reason the idea of alchemist's fire offends you, we'll just use greatswords instead and accomplish the same effect.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:00, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''Then I guess it's an awfully good thing I'm an atheist!'''<br />
<br />
That reminds me of when my cats hide by sticking their heads under blankets. Remember: just because you cannot see them does not mean that they can't see you.<br />
<br />
You are missing half the equation: now you need to optimize the monk for your build. This is what I'm saying. You can't work exclusively as advocate for one side or the other.<br />
<br />
The primary problem with your build as it stands is that you can't find the monk. He's mind blanked. No one walks around with a fleet of Efferti, buffed to the heavens, 24/7. Either one of them is hunting the other, in which case the hunter will have a significant advantage, or they bump into each other at the coffee shop (or in a lonely wood, or whatever). So if it's the latter, you need a realistic concept of what the wizard would have prepared.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Sulacu|Sulacu]]&nbsp;<small><small>23:56, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Oh wow. I've seen some interesting points being tossed around in this discussion. Like how monks are overpowered because they can become colossal wyverns or a Psionic Fist. In the same way is a druid overpowered because it can become a Planar Shepard. In the same way is a wizard overpowered because it can become an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. In the same way you might call a barbarian overpowered because it can become a Frenzied Berserker. Point is, any class can end up contributing to something powerful when you only use like two to six levels of it, and fill the rest up with a ceaseless flurry of optimization. It does not really speak of the power of the individual classes with which you do it, but rather of the anal-retentive meticulousness with which you endeavour to distill optimal power from the collective publishings of WotC. In the case of the monk, think of it like MacGyver using some worthless crap lying around and turning it into something great and handy that can get him out of a tight spot. <br />
<br />
And yes, it is a commonly known fact that wyverns are generally bigger and more powerful than human beings.<br />
<br />
A low-level adventurer with an AC 22 might be able to glean off some blows, but in order for a 3rd level or so monk to reach that level, he needs to max out two of his stats and use a couple of consumables to boost him the rest of the way. One might even say that a fighter of equal level can do the same thing by equipping a full plate and a tower shield - all mundane items. Because the monk's average base attack bonus and the fact that the fighter's Strength is most certainly greater, he'll still likely have a better chance to hit. Even a paladin using a few variant rules can easily get his Charisma to AC, and he doesn't even have to be unarmored for it. That said, you would have to be weird in the head to take paladin past third.<br />
<br />
It still remains you can use a lot of tactics to beat a monk. In fact, in most cases, it doesn't take anything more intricate than 'stay out of the way', which in turn of optimization builds pretty much means 'have a better fly speed and maneuverability than it'. It's not like such tactics like 'spam summons', 'forcecage it' or 'assay spell resistance followed by irresistible dance' aren't usable on pretty much any foe you'll encounter. It just tends to work particularly well on monks.<br />
<br />
Cus they suk, lol.<br />
<br />
Doesn't the last level kind of give it away? Wouldn't you be extremely pissed if you worked your whole life towards attaining that pinnacle of a certain class, and all you had to show for it was being a native Outsider and having DR 10/magic?<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:15, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''Oh wow. I've seen some interesting points being tossed around in this discussion. Like how monks are overpowered because they can become colossal wyverns or a Psionic Fist.'''<br />
<br />
Yeah, you don't get it. Anybody can get to be a big creature, not everybody can deal 48d8 or 64d8 base damage four or five times a round. Basically, you are conceding that a monk with a few levels in prestige classes can shred most other builds -- which is why you want to change the subject to 20 levels of straight monk. Who takes twenty levels of straight anything, anymore? That's just not the game. Monks take a little more intelligence to design and use effectively than your average Frenzied Berserker. They're very powerful, all the same.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Sulacu|Sulacu]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:19, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
I could go straight druid. And you sure as hell have no call to determine what 'the game' is, here. What I conceded is, yes, you can have real decent unarmed fighters. Guys that use their '''fists''' for everything. But they wouldn't be monks. If you want to determine whether a class is overpowered or not, you should be looking at the damned class already. If we're talking about multiclassing anyway, by core rules you are not even supposed to take half the classes you'd want to take if you start out with monk, and psionics has never made much sense to begin with.<br />
<br />
:"I could go straight druid." Good idea, great class. Still, a size H or G (enlarged) claw does very little damage -- 3d6 or so. The advantage to the monk as a shapeshifter is the combination of the size and the unarmed damage, as well as the more and AC bonuses, which mesh well with altered forms.<br />
<br />
:'''What I conceded is, yes, you can have real decent unarmed fighters. Guys that use their '''fists''' for everything.''' Really that's just backwards. A barbarian uses their weapons for pretty much everything. A monk can fight, or run, or hide, or grapple, or stun, or just fry them with an energy bolt.<br />
<br />
:I have spent a lot of time playing around with the monk and various multi/PrC options, and I can tell you that you typically need at least eleven levels in straight monk, for Greater Flurry, and a lot of the time (depending on the campaign) it's nice to go a couple more, for dimension door and spell resistance. Add on top of that Psionic Fist, and you have 20th-level monk AC, dmg, and move. If that's not "monkish" enough for some people, they're entitled to their opinion. I'm sharing mine.<br />
<br />
:You don't have to break any of the core rules on monk multiclassing to get Psionic Fist. They multiclass with monk freely. That's SRD. So do Drunken Masters. Others, you either take the Monastic Training feat or just wait until you've taken you eleven or so levels in straight monk (psionic fist has no such restrictions.)[[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]] 00:42, 29 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:04, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''The primary problem with your build as it stands is that you can't find the monk. He's mind blanked. No one walks around with a fleet of Efferti, buffed to the heavens, 24/7.'''<br />
<br />
Bind an efreet. Say "I wish that I was transported to -insert name's- location." Word it in a way that someone with int 38 would word it. That isn't foiled by Mind Blank because it isn't affecting the mind of the monk, it's just discerning its location and is not a scrying spell.<br />
<br />
The wizard is not walking around with a fleet of Efreet. That was a one-time thing. The sort of buffs I gave him are seriously the sort of thing you'd cast on yourself every morning.<br />
<br />
I just responded to the monk build that you gave up higher, as you gave for an example. And this was hardly tailored to the monk -at all-, I didn't even go dumpster diving. I just remembered a few spells I had on the top of my head that work against anyone. The fact that the monk can't see invisibility is kind of a side note.<br />
<br />
And are you seriously trying to get into a religious argument with me on a page about class discussion?<br />
<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:15, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''Bind an efreet. Say "I wish that I was transported to -insert name's- location." Word it in a way that someone with int 38 would word it. That isn't foiled by Mind Blank because it isn't affecting the mind of the monk, it's just discerning its location and is not a scrying spell.'''<br />
<br />
That's the very definition of scrying. It doesn't have to be a scrying "spell": "Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all." If your DM lets you get away with that sort of weak reasoning, no wonder you think an arcane spellcaster is the cock-of-the-walk. <br />
<br />
'''The wizard is not walking around with a fleet of Efreet. That was a one-time thing.'''<br />
<br />
Ah, yes, I see. Bearing in mind that: "Each creature gets a save, makes an independent attempt to escape, and must be individually persuaded to aid you." And you need five of them to agree to aid you simultaneously. And they get an escape attempt every day. You know, the more I talk to you, the more I think it isn't you that's the problem: its whatever soft-hearted DM has been letting you get away with this stuff.<br />
<br />
'''And are you seriously trying to get into a religious argument with me on a page about class discussion?'''<br />
<br />
Most people understand the phrase I quoted as referring to gods in a metaphorical sense, and having more to do with arrogance, of a sentiment similar to "Pride goeth before a fall." You came back with atheism, which really has nothing to do with the matter regardless of how you look at. I was just responding to what you wrote.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:07, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Wow things can get bad. Okay, now everyone calm down. Otherwise I bring fire...<br />
<br />
"'''If you deal out sarcasm, you're going to get it back. I'm sorry if your witty banter looks different to you when the sharp end is pointed the other way.'''<br />
<br />
'''Let me try to put it to you in your native language: Pun-Pun no win. Pun Pun stupid. Multiclass/Prc options part of what make class special. They like magic items or special feats. They part of what you chose when you chose class. This my opinion. You no like? OK. You maybe go talk with another someone, maybe enroll to English grammar course online.''' "<br />
<br />
Ok now last warning, from what i understand my native tongue is idiocy? Yeah im french, yeah i am not perfect in english. Now let me put this in your native tongue: One. last. chance. Oh yeah and im thinking about closing this discussion now, thoughts are going to actions if people don't understand being polite and respectful.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:30, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
By all means, shut it down. The signal-to-noise ratio is terrible. I'm sorry I made fun of your grammar. That was pretty weak. I didn't find your comments to be "polite and respectful" but that doesn't excuse my response. Please accept my apology.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:31, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Well I wasn't respectful. I humiliated the monk of my story. I rubbed his face in the mad, bastard I am. But I never insulted any user, and I won't start today. <br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>07:23, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''That's the very definition of scrying. It doesn't have to be a scrying "spell": "Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all." If your DM lets you get away with that sort of weak reasoning, no wonder you think an arcane spellcaster is the cock-of-the-walk.'''<br />
<br />
Um, hello? Scrying is a -tag-. See [[SRD:Scrying|Scrying]], for example. When an effect says it stops scrying effects, that means it stops things with the scrying tag. Just as how something that says it stops mind-affecting effects stops things that have the mind-affecting tag, not things that can reasonably argued to be mind-affecting but lack the tag.<br />
<br />
'''Ah, yes, I see. Bearing in mind that: "Each creature gets a save, makes an independent attempt to escape, and must be individually persuaded to aid you." And you need five of them to agree to aid you simultaneously. And they get an escape attempt every day. You know, the more I talk to you, the more I think it isn't you that's the problem: its whatever soft-hearted DM has been letting you get away with this stuff.'''<br />
<br />
Oh, please. It's not difficult to persuade an Efreet to work with you. If you're especially mean, all you have to do is give them the choice between being disintegrated or using their spell-like abilities a couple times and then vanishing, something that costs them nothing. (Efreets are rather weak creatures for their CR.) Life vs. nothing but a few lost minutes, I think I know what I'd choose. And if you're nice, you tell the room that you'll kill them if they don't work with you but, if they do, you'll use however many last wishes to help -them- out (Efreets can't use their Wish spell-like ability for themselves). The choice between death and wealth/boon is extraordinarily persuasive. Not to mention that you can just keep using Charm Monster until you've charmed the room.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>08:58, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''When an effect says it stops scrying effects, that means it stops things with the scrying tag.'''<br />
<br />
Not in this case. It specifically refers to: "This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it." The Efferti's wish power cannot "be used in such a way" as to perform information gathering about the subject.<br />
<br />
'''Oh, please. It's not difficult to persuade an Efreet to work with you. If you're especially mean, all you have to do is give them the choice between being disintegrated or using their spell-like abilities a couple times and then vanishing, something that costs them nothing.'''<br />
<br />
As I said, you've been spoiled. Five Efeeti in a room together? All cooperating because you make some threats? Repeated six times over with no problems of any kind? Wouldn't happen.<br />
<br />
Let's go back to ''Color Spray'' for a minute. You stated that you're going to take out "an entire group" of enemies with it, which raises the question, how exactly? You have a 15-foot cone. How many in the group? At least four to six, right? Put them in classic dungeon formation (let alone a loose formation, when what you suggest is absolutely impossible) two by two. To affect the people in back, you need to get out in front of your party and stand five feet away from the front line. Anyone with a reach weapon kills you right there. If not, you're going to die at the hands of the half of the group that makes their saves. End of Wizard.<br />
<br />
Whether you're boosting that a 1st-level wizard can out-grapple a monk, or planning on wishing yourself past a mind blank, your strategies have one thing in common; they don't work, except in the case of an absolutely besotted referee who passes all these things without exacting the natural consequences of your behavior -- which in your case, would be a whole lot o' dying. <br />
<br />
<br />
=== [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]]&nbsp;<small><small>09:38, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Let's look at some of the other problems with the strategy you suggest above (besides the fact you can't find the monk to carry it out, and that your strategy for getting +5 on all your scores is full of holes):<br />
<br />
'''The relevant stats (32 point buy, because I'm not sure what you were using and that seems standard)'''<br />
<br />
'''Race: Grey Elf Str: 6 (8 - 2) base, +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (17) Dex: 18 base (16 + 2, 10 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (29) Con: 8 base (10 - 2, 2 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (19) Int: 20 base (18 + 2, 16 pts), +5 from level-up, +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (36) (mod of +13) Wis: 10 base (2 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (21) Cha: 10 base (2 pts), +5 from Efreets, +6 belt (21) Traits: Aggressive (+2 initiative)'''<br />
<br />
So you had three hit points and a -1 penalty to AC (Aggressive) at ECL 1? OK.<br />
<br />
'''Pertinent equipment: Belt of Magnificence (200k), masterwork tool for spellcraft (50), headband of spellcraft +30 (90k), two orange ioun stones (60k), shapechange focus (1.5k), greater metamagic rod of quicken (175k), pale green ioun stone, normal metamagic rod of twin spell. Some prices are left off because I don't have the books but this is within the wealth limit.'''<br />
<br />
Ioun stones of the same type don't stack, of course. Spellcraft is not a craft skill -- you don't need tools, and masterwork tools don't give you a bonus. <br />
<br />
'''Pertinent feats used for PrC reqs: Iron Will (lev1), Extend Spell (lev5 bonus) Spell Focus (abjuration) (lev 3), Greater Spell Focus (abjuration) (lev 9), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (lev 6) Other feats of note: Improved Initiative (lev 12), Persistent Spell (Incantatrix bonus feat), Ocular Spell (Incantatrix bonus)'''<br />
<br />
Are you talking about [[SRD:Persistent Spell|Persistent Spell]]? And how does "Ocular Spell" let you cast anything as a persistent spell? The Persistent cannot modify "spells whose effects are discharged." That sounds like Ocular Spell exactly, from what I could find online about it. Enlighten me.<br />
<br />
'''Pertinent skills: Concentration 23, Spellcraft 23, Knowledge (Arcana) 23, Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks. Thanks to equipment, synergies, and other stuff, we have a total spellcraft modifier of +70. That's easily enough to make the spellcraft checks required for the Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect ability when making a spell persistent, even a level 9 spell. So we will persist the following spells:'''<br />
<br />
Persistent spells last 24 hours, and the Incantatrix's metamagic effect is usable once per day at 7th level. So pick an effect. And you don't get the spells: they aren't supernatural abilities, they're spells.<br />
<br />
'''It's getting late so that's all I've bothered to calculate at the moment. Things of note are initiative of +22, caster level of 22 (so the solar is doable).'''<br />
<br />
Bonuses for the ioun stone don't stack, so no solar. Initiative bonus is going to take a hit, too, depending on the level of the "skittish" spell and what a realistic DM would think about your Efferti sweatshop. Also remember you lose those +5s in physical stats when you switch to solar. You could have the genies cast it on your solar form, but you're just going to lose the benefit the next day when you re-cast shapechange.<br />
<br />
Also, Magic of Faerûn was published in 2001, no? Wouldn't that make the Incantrix 3.0e and not 3.5e?<br />
<br />
At this point your build has so many problems it's hard to run the combat, but suffice to say the problems continue. I suspect you're going to lose initiative and get killed before you get a spell off, but, please, fix the problems and we'll look at it again. For my own part, I should flesh out Feorn a little more (he was designed for that one combat): he has 200,000gp of wealth under the cap yet, and should probably buff his initiative more, and pick up more psion abilities via [[SRD:Psychic Chirurgery|Psychic Chirurgery]].<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Surgo|Surgo]]&nbsp;<small><small>11:07, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
'''Spellcraft is not a craft skill -- you don't need tools, and masterwork tools don't give you a bonus.'''<br />
<br />
There exist no rules that say that masterwork tools do not give bonuses for non-craft skills. In fact, all it says is it gives the bonus to related skill checks. So that is totally valid. The funny thing is it doesn't even matter, because +68 is still good enough. I just included the masterwork tool for hilarity, kind of like having full cleric casting after using shapechange.<br />
<br />
'''Ioun stones of the same type don't stack'''<br />
<br />
Yes, they do. They are slotless, and the caster level bonus is unnamed.<br />
<br />
'''Persistent spells last 24 hours, and the Incantatrix's metamagic effect is usable once per day. So pick an effect. And you don't get the spells: they aren't supernatural abilities, they're spells.'''<br />
<br />
Did you even read the rules for the Incantatrix? Apparently not, because it pretty clearly says under "Metamagic Effect" that it's usable 3 + (int bonus) times per day. In this case, that's 16 times per day. As far as the supernatural ability thing, I don't even get what you're trying to say here. Of course they are spells...that's the entire point.<br />
<br />
'''Also, Magic of Faerûn was published in 2001, no? Wouldn't that make the Incantrix 3.0e and not 3.5e?'''<br />
<br />
Player's Guide to Faerun, which is 3.5.<br />
<br />
'''Initiative bonus is going to take a hit, too, depending on the level of the "skittish" spell'''<br />
<br />
Kauper's Skittish Nerves is a flat +5 bonus, it doesn't matter what level it's cast at.<br />
<br />
'''Also remember you lose those +5s in physical stats when you switch to solar.'''<br />
<br />
No, inherent bonuses are like buff spells. And just like buff spells, they stay with you when you change forms.<br />
<br />
'''That's the very definition of scrying. It doesn't have to be a scrying "spell": "Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all." If your DM lets you get away with that sort of weak reasoning, no wonder you think an arcane spellcaster is the cock-of-the-walk.'''<br />
<br />
and<br />
<br />
'''Not in this case. It specifically refers to: "This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it." The Efferti's wish power cannot "be used in such a way" as to perform information gathering about the subject.'''<br />
<br />
Here's the problem: First of all, it's not an attempt to examine the monk with a crystal, it's discerning the monk's location. If you're not using the (Scrying) tag (which you should be), then what you're using is the dictionary definition which clearly allows it. Furthermore, we are not attempting to gain any information about the subject's mind, merely the location of his body -- which Mind Blank clearly does not defend against it, as it only stops things that "affect the subject's mind or to gain information about it".<br />
<br />
'''As I said, you've been spoiled. Five Efeeti in a room together? All cooperating because you make some threats? Repeated six times over with no problems of any kind? Wouldn't happen.'''<br />
<br />
You could put them in a bunch of different rooms, whatever. And you only need to get 2 of them to work together at the same time, not 5 (2 leaves 1 wish leftover). And even if the first batch fails, you can just conjure up another batch. It's really no big deal, you can just keep doing it until you finally succeed.<br />
<br />
'''Stuff about Ocular Spell'''<br />
<br />
None of the spells I cast are discharged, so they can all be persisted. What Ocular Spell does is transform non-fixed range spells (including touch spells) into fixed-range spells, which can be persisted.<br />
<br />
Actually I don't even think you need it because you can apply Persistent Spell to an already-existing effect and not care about the source thanks to Metamagic Effect, but it's there for completeness if nothing else.<br />
<br />
'''At this point your build has so many problems it's hard to run the combat, but suffice to say the problems continue.'''<br />
<br />
Nope, not seeing any problems. Just mistakes in your interpretation of the rules.<br />
<br />
== [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<small> [[User talk:Rithaniel|''<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>'']]</small> 11:37, 29 January 2009 (MST) ==<br />
<br />
Wow, that is a lot of words to read in one hour<br />
<br />
I simply have to appluad S1Q3T3 here, he ''knows'' that the monk has potential and should not be merely passed over in the same way that (mostly) everyone else who has had the interest to add their own 2 cents to this discussion ''knows'' that the monk is a weak class, and I must comment on the fact that despite repeated attempts to shoot down and belittle his point, he has remained strong and crushed several other arguements without mercy. Namely, color spray and wish versus mind blank, on which note, um, Surgo, are you attempting to assert that the Monks location has absolutely nothing to do with the monk? Because in order to be transported to a location that is dependent upon a person, there must be some direct connection between the person and the spell, since the location is constantly changing and therefore cannot be relied upon. Therefore the spell is attempting to assertain the location of the monk and that location is inherently information about the monk. Mink Blank prevents this from happening and so the wish to be transported to the location of the monk is similar to wishing to be upside-down and rightside-up simultaneously, it merely cannot be done. If you continue to assert that wish should still be able to transport the person to the location of the monk, then I must assume that you are attempting to assert that wish can do anything, in which case, your Efreet buddies would be wearing you as a winter coat on their trips to the material plane by the time you came up with your idea to bypass mind blank.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>12:32, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
An interesting issue to raise in this discussion is that there is an assumption that the characters are already in the level 18+ region. My campaign started four years ago at level 1, and I am ashamed and disgusted to say that they are just about to attain level 13 (their fault, not mine - they do stupid things and die a lot).<br />
<br />
What is everyone's opinion of unbalanced at, say: lv 5, lv 10, and lv 15? I have found a bow-spec ranger to be quite devastating - my appropriate CR mobs often don't make it to the front-line fighters. Magic items have been rather rare along the way, but they have gone to town and purchased specific items with their cash. From memory, the ranger had ''+4 Bracers of Dexterity'' and a ''Flaming Bow +1''. Sadly, the ranger is now dead (died gloriously making sure the local bad-guy boss and his personal mortal enemy was sent to hell as required against impossible odds... very epic).<br />
<br />
The other character I have issues with is the barbarian. He's got this scam where before combat he drinks a potion or two, and gets a tame spellcaster to cast Enlarge on him. We've gone through it carefully, and he ends up with AC30, double weapons at large size, shrugging off so many points of damage per hit, plus more HP than any three spellcasters. About the only issue is the overt use of magic on a character that is supposed to have an aversion to magic... which is a storyline objection, not a mechanics objection.<br />
<br />
I'm a bit stoopid about humanoid opponents (I take them straight from the DMG NPCs, and often don't work out specific feats), but then, the things I throw at them are quite competitive against the rest of the party, and there's enough character death as it is. I'm trying to encourage character development and storyline fleshing, which is difficult if you're making a new character every couple of months.<br />
<br />
The campaign is firmly European in flavour, and monks, ninjas, wu-jen, and the like are currently forbidden.<br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Has_anyone_seen_spell_creation_rules..%3F&diff=320465Discussion:Has anyone seen spell creation rules..?2009-01-29T10:35:56Z<p>Wesinator5: /* Wesinator5&nbsp;<small><small>02:45, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>13:15, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35?<br />
<br />
(Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's new release DnD4.325 coming soon.)<br />
<br />
''Background:'' I did a bit of surveying in the dark mines of 3.5 spelldom (actually, restricting myself to PHB and Spell Compendium). I went through all the different wizard spells that cause widespread damage in one form or another, trying to divine some sort of pattern in the damage dice used, the number of dice permitted, the maximum number of dice permitted, the area affected, etc. Other than roughly adhering to the tables on p36, there didn't seem to be one!<br />
<br />
Here's a sample of what I found:<br />
<br />
{| class="d20"<br />
|+<br />
! Spell !! Level !! Radius !! Range !! Damage !! Max !! Notes<br />
|+<br />
| Hail of stone || 1 || 5' || medium || 1d4/lv || 5d4 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scatterspray || 1 || 10' || close || 1d8 || 1d8 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Snowball swarm || 2 || 10' || medium || 1d6/odd lv || 5d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Fireball || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scintillating sphere || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Ice storm || 4 || 20' || long || 5d6 || 5d6 || slow, -4 to Listen<br />
|+<br />
| Firebrand || 5 || 5' &times; lv || medium || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Acid storm || 6 || 20' || medium || 1d6/lv || 15d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Horrid wilting || 8 || 30' || long || 1d6/lv || 20d6 || 1d8/lv (max 20d8) vs plants<br />
|+<br />
| Sunburst || 8 || 80' || long || 6d6 || 6d6 || blind; 1d6/lv (max 25d6) vs undead<br />
|}<br />
<br />
My list has ''many'' more spell comparisons, divided into a range of categories - the above list is for illustrative purposes only. I am particularly interested in the ''progression'' of spell damage from level to level, and from individual targets to widespread.<br />
<br />
In general, I feel the transition from cantrips to 1st level to 2nd level to 3rd level is an impressive increase in power. Thereafter, it's a bit "meh". I've even had players ask me to be allowed to use their 4th level spell slots to memorise 3rd level spells. I could ramble on at length at specific examples, drawn from the above list and elsewhere, of how ''this'' spell doesn't seem to match up against ''that'' spell. Rather, I'll pitch the issue in a different way:<br />
<br />
'''Question 1a:''' What are your expectations of the average damage-dealing power of a spell at each level?<br />
<br />
'''Question 1b:''' If there was a spell which had the same effects as a ''fireball'' at each of the other nine levels, what would its specific characteristcs be? (I've already had a stab at this)<br />
<br />
'''Question 2a:''' Do the other details of a spell have a direct affect on your expectations of the damage-dealing power of a spell?<br />
<br />
'''Question 2b:''' If there were variants of a ''fireball'' at Level 3 that differed in the following ways, how else would they change?<br />
<br />
* touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged automatic hit on one target<br />
* a cone<br />
* a radial blast centered on the caster<br />
* a radial blast centered at long range<br />
* a blast that simply did damage<br />
* a blast that knocked people prone<br />
* a blast that ignited loose materials<br />
* a blast that blinded for a round, deafened for 1d4 rounds, set your eyebrows on fire, and scared your donkey<br />
<br />
Any comments at all... please!<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>02:45, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Here is an example of where this query is going.<br />
<br />
<div style="width: 90%; padding: 4px; margin: 4px; border: solid 1px black;"><br />
<br />
{{Spell<br />
|name=(Expanded) Fireball<br />
|school=Evocation<br />
|desc=Fire<br />
|lvl=Varies, see text<br />
|comp=V, S, M<br />
|casttime=1 standard action<br />
|range=Varies, see text<br />
|dur=Instantaneous<br />
|tsea=(a)<br />
|subj=Varies, see text<br />
|save=Reflex half<br />
|sr=Yes<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{| class="d20"<br />
! Spell !! Level !! Range !! Area !! Damage !! Max<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball 0'' || Sor/Wiz 0 || Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) || 5 ft. radius spread || 1 || 1<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball I'' || Sor/Wiz 1 || Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) || 10 ft. radius spread || 1d4/2 levels above 1st || 4d4<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball II'' || Sor/Wiz 2 || Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) || 15 ft. radius spread || 1d4/level || 7d4<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball III'' || Sor/Wiz 3 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d6/level || 10d6<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball IV'' || Sor/Wiz 4 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 25 ft. radius spread || 1d6/level || 12d6<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball V'' || Sor/Wiz 5 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 30 ft. radius spread || 1d8/level || 14d8<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball VI'' || Sor/Wiz 6 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 35 ft. radius spread || 1d8/level || 16d8<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball VII'' || Sor/Wiz 7 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 40 ft. radius spread || 1d10/level || 18d10<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball VIII'' || Sor/Wiz 8 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 45 ft. radius spread || 1d10/level || 20d10<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball IX'' || Sor/Wiz 9 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 50 ft. radius spread || 1d12/level || 22d12<br />
|}<br />
<br />
A ''fireball'' spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals fire damage to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.<br />
<br />
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the ''fireball'' is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the ''fireball'' at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.<br />
<br />
The ''fireball'' sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the ''fireball'' may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.<br />
<br />
''Material Component:'' A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.<br />
<br />
</div><br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Has_anyone_seen_spell_creation_rules..%3F&diff=320464Discussion:Has anyone seen spell creation rules..?2009-01-29T10:34:57Z<p>Wesinator5: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>13:15, 28 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35?<br />
<br />
(Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's new release DnD4.325 coming soon.)<br />
<br />
''Background:'' I did a bit of surveying in the dark mines of 3.5 spelldom (actually, restricting myself to PHB and Spell Compendium). I went through all the different wizard spells that cause widespread damage in one form or another, trying to divine some sort of pattern in the damage dice used, the number of dice permitted, the maximum number of dice permitted, the area affected, etc. Other than roughly adhering to the tables on p36, there didn't seem to be one!<br />
<br />
Here's a sample of what I found:<br />
<br />
{| class="d20"<br />
|+<br />
! Spell !! Level !! Radius !! Range !! Damage !! Max !! Notes<br />
|+<br />
| Hail of stone || 1 || 5' || medium || 1d4/lv || 5d4 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scatterspray || 1 || 10' || close || 1d8 || 1d8 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Snowball swarm || 2 || 10' || medium || 1d6/odd lv || 5d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Fireball || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scintillating sphere || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Ice storm || 4 || 20' || long || 5d6 || 5d6 || slow, -4 to Listen<br />
|+<br />
| Firebrand || 5 || 5' &times; lv || medium || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Acid storm || 6 || 20' || medium || 1d6/lv || 15d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Horrid wilting || 8 || 30' || long || 1d6/lv || 20d6 || 1d8/lv (max 20d8) vs plants<br />
|+<br />
| Sunburst || 8 || 80' || long || 6d6 || 6d6 || blind; 1d6/lv (max 25d6) vs undead<br />
|}<br />
<br />
My list has ''many'' more spell comparisons, divided into a range of categories - the above list is for illustrative purposes only. I am particularly interested in the ''progression'' of spell damage from level to level, and from individual targets to widespread.<br />
<br />
In general, I feel the transition from cantrips to 1st level to 2nd level to 3rd level is an impressive increase in power. Thereafter, it's a bit "meh". I've even had players ask me to be allowed to use their 4th level spell slots to memorise 3rd level spells. I could ramble on at length at specific examples, drawn from the above list and elsewhere, of how ''this'' spell doesn't seem to match up against ''that'' spell. Rather, I'll pitch the issue in a different way:<br />
<br />
'''Question 1a:''' What are your expectations of the average damage-dealing power of a spell at each level?<br />
<br />
'''Question 1b:''' If there was a spell which had the same effects as a ''fireball'' at each of the other nine levels, what would its specific characteristcs be? (I've already had a stab at this)<br />
<br />
'''Question 2a:''' Do the other details of a spell have a direct affect on your expectations of the damage-dealing power of a spell?<br />
<br />
'''Question 2b:''' If there were variants of a ''fireball'' at Level 3 that differed in the following ways, how else would they change?<br />
<br />
* touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged automatic hit on one target<br />
* a cone<br />
* a radial blast centered on the caster<br />
* a radial blast centered at long range<br />
* a blast that simply did damage<br />
* a blast that knocked people prone<br />
* a blast that ignited loose materials<br />
* a blast that blinded for a round, deafened for 1d4 rounds, set your eyebrows on fire, and scared your donkey<br />
<br />
Any comments at all... please!<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>02:45, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Here is an example of where this query is going.<br />
<br />
<div style="width: 90%; padding: 4px; margin: 4px; border: solid 1px black;"><br />
<br />
{{Spell<br />
|name=(Expanded) Fireball<br />
|school=Evocation<br />
|desc=Fire<br />
|lvl=Varies, see text<br />
|comp=V, S, M<br />
|casttime=1 standard action<br />
|range=Varies, see text<br />
|dur=Instantaneous<br />
|tsea=(a)<br />
|subj=Varies, see text<br />
|save=Reflex half<br />
|sr=Yes<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{| class="d20"<br />
! Spell !! Level !! Range !! Area !! Damage !! Max<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball 0'' || Sor/Wiz 0 || Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) || 5 ft. radius spread || 1 || 1<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball I'' || Sor/Wiz 1 || Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) || 10 ft. radius spread || 1d4/2 levels above 1st || 4d4<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball II'' || Sor/Wiz 2 || Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) || 15 ft. radius spread || 1d4/level || 7d4<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball III'' || Sor/Wiz 3 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d6/level || 10d6<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball IV'' || Sor/Wiz 4 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d6/level || 12d6<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball V'' || Sor/Wiz 5 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d8/level || 14d8<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball VI'' || Sor/Wiz 6 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d8/level || 16d8<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball VII'' || Sor/Wiz 7 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d10/level || 18d10<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball VIII'' || Sor/Wiz 8 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d10/level || 20d10<br />
|-<br />
| ''Fireball IX'' || Sor/Wiz 9 || Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) || 20 ft. radius spread || 1d12/level || 22d12<br />
|}<br />
<br />
A ''fireball'' spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals fire damage to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.<br />
<br />
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the ''fireball'' is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the ''fireball'' at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.<br />
<br />
The ''fireball'' sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the ''fireball'' may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.<br />
<br />
''Material Component:'' A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.<br />
<br />
</div><br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Has_anyone_seen_spell_creation_rules..%3F&diff=320463Discussion:Has anyone seen spell creation rules..?2009-01-29T09:45:03Z<p>Wesinator5: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>13:15, 28 January 2009 </small></small> ===<br />
<br />
... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35?<br />
<br />
(Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's new release DnD4.325 coming soon.)<br />
<br />
''Background:'' I did a bit of surveying in the dark mines of 3.5 spelldom (actually, restricting myself to PHB and Spell Compendium). I went through all the different wizard spells that cause widespread damage in one form or another, trying to divine some sort of pattern in the damage dice used, the number of dice permitted, the maximum number of dice permitted, the area affected, etc. Other than roughly adhering to the tables on p36, there didn't seem to be one!<br />
<br />
Here's a sample of what I found:<br />
<br />
{| border=1<br />
|+ bgcolor=grey<br />
! Spell !! Level !! Radius !! Range !! Damage !! Max !! Notes<br />
|+<br />
| Hail of stone || 1 || 5' || medium || 1d4/lv || 5d4 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scatterspray || 1 || 10' || close || 1d8 || 1d8 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Snowball swarm || 2 || 10' || medium || 1d6/odd lv || 5d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Fireball || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scintillating sphere || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Ice storm || 4 || 20' || long || 5d6 || 5d6 || slow, -4 to Listen<br />
|+<br />
| Firebrand || 5 || 5' &times; lv || medium || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Acid storm || 6 || 20' || medium || 1d6/lv || 15d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Horrid wilting || 8 || 30' || long || 1d6/lv || 20d6 || 1d8/lv (max 20d8) vs plants<br />
|+<br />
| Sunburst || 8 || 80' || long || 6d6 || 6d6 || blind; 1d6/lv (max 25d6) vs undead<br />
|}<br />
<br />
My list has ''many'' more spell comparisons, divided into a range of categories - the above list is for illustrative purposes only. I am particularly interested in the ''progression'' of spell damage from level to level, and from individual targets to widespread.<br />
<br />
In general, I feel the transition from cantrips to 1st level to 2nd level to 3rd level is an impressive increase in power. Thereafter, it's a bit "meh". I've even had players ask me to be allowed to use their 4th level spell slots to memorise 3rd level spells. I could ramble on at length at specific examples, drawn from the above list and elsewhere, of how ''this'' spell doesn't seem to match up against ''that'' spell. Rather, I'll pitch the issue in a different way:<br />
<br />
'''Question 1a:''' What are your expectations of the average damage-dealing power of a spell at each level?<br />
<br />
'''Question 1b:''' If there was a spell which had the same effects as a ''fireball'' at each of the other nine levels, what would its specific characteristcs be? (I've already had a stab at this)<br />
<br />
'''Question 2a:''' Do the other details of a spell have a direct affect on your expectations of the damage-dealing power of a spell?<br />
<br />
'''Question 2b:''' If there were variants of a ''fireball'' at Level 3 that differed in the following ways, how else would they change?<br />
<br />
* touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged automatic hit on one target<br />
* a cone<br />
* a radial blast centered on the caster<br />
* a radial blast centered at long range<br />
* a blast that simply did damage<br />
* a blast that knocked people prone<br />
* a blast that ignited loose materials<br />
* a blast that blinded for a round, deafened for 1d4 rounds, set your eyebrows on fire, and scared your donkey<br />
<br />
Any comments at all... please!<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>02:45, 29 January 2009 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Here is an example of where this query is going.<br />
<br />
{{Spell<br />
|name=(Expanded) Fireball<br />
|school=Evocation<br />
|desc=Fire<br />
|lvl=Varies, see text<br />
|comp=V, S, M<br />
|casttime=1 standard action<br />
|range=Varies, see text<br />
|dur=Instantaneous<br />
|tsea=(a)<br />
|subj=<!-- subject(s) of the spell --><br />
|save=Reflex half<br />
|sr=Yes<br />
}}<br />
<br />
A ''fireball'' spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals fire damage to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.<br />
<br />
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the ''fireball'' is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the ''fireball'' at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.<br />
<br />
The ''fireball'' sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the ''fireball'' may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.<br />
<br />
''Material Component:'' A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.<br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:Wesinator5&diff=320462User:Wesinator52009-01-29T09:14:42Z<p>Wesinator5: /* About Me */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style="width: 40%; padding: 4px; margin: 4px; border: solid 1px black; background-color: #FFFFFF; float:right;"><br />
==About Me==<br />
{| style="width: 100%; background-color: #FFFFFF;"<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Name''' || Wes Prosser<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''User Since''' || Tue 27 Jan 2009 (for which I'm very regretful)<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Details''' || 41 YO Male from Geelong, Victoria, Australia<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Occupation''' || Teacher (Maths/Science)<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Facts''' || Husband of one (Sue)<br>Father of three (Brandon 6, Nicholas 4, Ethan 2)<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Interests''' || RPGs, disorganised sport, croquet, science fiction and fantasy, card games, board games, mathematics, science, history, mythology<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Other Online Activities''' || Own web, Facebook, World of Warcraft<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Contact''' || email[mailto:wesinator5@hotmail.com]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''External Links''' || Home page[http://users.tpg.com.au/wespro/]<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
==Gaming History==<br />
I have been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since around 1979 (gasp!). My first adventure was the famous Dungeons &amp; Dragons Module B1: In Search Of The Unknown... which later became my first DM effort.<br />
<br />
I've played a range of games, including Dungeons &amp; Dragons, Advanced Dungeons &amp; Dragons, Dungeons &amp; Dragons 2nd Ed, Dungeons &amp; Dragons v3.0, and Dungeons &amp; Dragons v3.5 :). I've also played Star Frontiers, Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, Toon, and many others.<br />
<br />
Currently, I'm DM for a group of 8 - 12 players playing D&amp;Dv3.5. The campaign world is of my own design, modelled on Europe of a selection of key time frames.</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:Wesinator5&diff=320461User:Wesinator52009-01-29T09:13:42Z<p>Wesinator5: New page: <div style="width: 40%; padding: 4px; margin: 4px; border: solid 1px black; background-color: #FFFFFF; float:right;"> ==About Me== {| style="width: 100%; background-color: #FFFFFF;" |- val...</p>
<hr />
<div><div style="width: 40%; padding: 4px; margin: 4px; border: solid 1px black; background-color: #FFFFFF; float:right;"><br />
==About Me==<br />
{| style="width: 100%; background-color: #FFFFFF;"<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Name''' || Wes Prosser<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''User Since''' || Tue 27 Jan 2009 (for which I'm very regretful)<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Details''' || 41 YO Male from Geelong, Victoria, Australia<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Occupation''' || Teacher (Maths/Science)<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Facts''' || Husband of one (Sue)<br>Father of three (Brandon 6, Nicholas 4, Ethan 2)<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Interests''' || RPGs, Disorganised sport, Croquet, Science Fiction and Fantasy, card games, board games, mathematics, science<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Other Online Activities''' || Own web, Facebook, World of Warcraft<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''Contact''' || email[mailto:wesinator5@hotmail.com]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| '''External Links''' || Home page[http://users.tpg.com.au/wespro/]<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
==Gaming History==<br />
I have been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since around 1979 (gasp!). My first adventure was the famous Dungeons &amp; Dragons Module B1: In Search Of The Unknown... which later became my first DM effort.<br />
<br />
I've played a range of games, including Dungeons &amp; Dragons, Advanced Dungeons &amp; Dragons, Dungeons &amp; Dragons 2nd Ed, Dungeons &amp; Dragons v3.0, and Dungeons &amp; Dragons v3.5 :). I've also played Star Frontiers, Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, Toon, and many others.<br />
<br />
Currently, I'm DM for a group of 8 - 12 players playing D&amp;Dv3.5. The campaign world is of my own design, modelled on Europe of a selection of key time frames.</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:TK-Squared&diff=320460User:TK-Squared2009-01-29T08:11:58Z<p>Wesinator5: </p>
<hr />
<div>I am TK-Squared and I'm here to offer my contributions to the wiki. I'm an amateur creator of D&D material and wish to expand my repetoire. I am not the TK that's elsewhere around here.<br />
<br />
== Contributions ==<br />
<DPL><br />
debug=1<br />
category=Category:User:TK-Squared<br />
mode=category<br />
ordermethod=title<br />
order=ascending<br />
</DPL><br />
[[Category:User:TK-Squared]]</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Has_anyone_seen_spell_creation_rules..%3F&diff=320099Discussion:Has anyone seen spell creation rules..?2009-01-28T20:18:29Z<p>Wesinator5: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]]&nbsp;<small><small>13:15, 28 January 2009 </small></small> ===<br />
<br />
... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35?<br />
<br />
(Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's new release DnD4.325 coming soon.)<br />
<br />
''Background:'' I did a bit of surveying in the dark mines of 3.5 spelldom (actually, restricting myself to PHB and Spell Compendium). I went through all the different wizard spells that cause widespread damage in one form or another, trying to divine some sort of pattern in the damage dice used, the number of dice permitted, the maximum number of dice permitted, the area affected, etc. Other than roughly adhering to the tables on p36, there didn't seem to be one!<br />
<br />
Here's a sample of what I found:<br />
<br />
{| border=1<br />
|+ bgcolor=grey<br />
! Spell !! Level !! Radius !! Range !! Damage !! Max !! Notes<br />
|+<br />
| Hail of stone || 1 || 5' || medium || 1d4/lv || 5d4 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scatterspray || 1 || 10' || close || 1d8 || 1d8 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Snowball swarm || 2 || 10' || medium || 1d6/odd lv || 5d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Fireball || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scintillating sphere || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Ice storm || 4 || 20' || long || 5d6 || 5d6 || slow, -4 to Listen<br />
|+<br />
| Firebrand || 5 || 5' &times; lv || medium || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Acid storm || 6 || 20' || medium || 1d6/lv || 15d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Horrid wilting || 8 || 30' || long || 1d6/lv || 20d6 || 1d8/lv (max 20d8) vs plants<br />
|+<br />
| Sunburst || 8 || 80' || long || 6d6 || 6d6 || blind; 1d6/lv (max 25d6) vs undead<br />
|}<br />
<br />
My list has ''many'' more spell comparisons, divided into a range of categories - the above list is for illustrative purposes only. I am particularly interested in the ''progression'' of spell damage from level to level, and from individual targets to widespread.<br />
<br />
In general, I feel the transition from cantrips to 1st level to 2nd level to 3rd level is an impressive increase in power. Thereafter, it's a bit "meh". I've even had players ask me to be allowed to use their 4th level spell slots to memorise 3rd level spells. I could ramble on at length at specific examples, drawn from the above list and elsewhere, of how ''this'' spell doesn't seem to match up against ''that'' spell. Rather, I'll pitch the issue in a different way:<br />
<br />
'''Question 1a:''' What are your expectations of the average damage-dealing power of a spell at each level?<br />
<br />
'''Question 1b:''' If there was a spell which had the same effects as a ''fireball'' at each of the other nine levels, what would its specific characteristcs be? (I've already had a stab at this)<br />
<br />
'''Question 2a:''' Do the other details of a spell have a direct affect on your expectations of the damage-dealing power of a spell?<br />
<br />
'''Question 2b:''' If there were variants of a ''fireball'' at Level 3 that differed in the following ways, how else would they change?<br />
<br />
* touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged automatic hit on one target<br />
* a cone<br />
* a radial blast centered on the caster<br />
* a radial blast centered at long range<br />
* a blast that simply did damage<br />
* a blast that knocked people prone<br />
* a blast that ignited loose materials<br />
* a blast that blinded for a round, deafened for 1d4 rounds, set your eyebrows on fire, and scared your donkey<br />
<br />
Any comments at all... please!<br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Has_anyone_seen_spell_creation_rules..%3F&diff=320095Discussion:Has anyone seen spell creation rules..?2009-01-28T20:15:05Z<p>Wesinator5: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == <br />
<br />
--[[User:Wesinator5|Wesinator5]] 13:15, 28 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35?<br />
<br />
(Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's new release DnD4.325 coming soon.)<br />
<br />
''Background:'' I did a bit of surveying in the dark mines of 3.5 spelldom (actually, restricting myself to PHB and Spell Compendium). I went through all the different wizard spells that cause widespread damage in one form or another, trying to divine some sort of pattern in the damage dice used, the number of dice permitted, the maximum number of dice permitted, the area affected, etc. Other than roughly adhering to the tables on p36, there didn't seem to be one!<br />
<br />
Here's a sample of what I found:<br />
<br />
{| border=1<br />
|+ bgcolor=grey<br />
! Spell !! Level !! Radius !! Range !! Damage !! Max !! Notes<br />
|+<br />
| Hail of stone || 1 || 5' || medium || 1d4/lv || 5d4 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scatterspray || 1 || 10' || close || 1d8 || 1d8 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Snowball swarm || 2 || 10' || medium || 1d6/odd lv || 5d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Fireball || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Scintillating sphere || 3 || 20' || long || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Ice storm || 4 || 20' || long || 5d6 || 5d6 || slow, -4 to Listen<br />
|+<br />
| Firebrand || 5 || 5' &times; lv || medium || 1d6/lv || 10d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Acid storm || 6 || 20' || medium || 1d6/lv || 15d6 || &nbsp;<br />
|+<br />
| Horrid wilting || 8 || 30' || long || 1d6/lv || 20d6 || 1d8/lv (max 20d8) vs plants<br />
|+<br />
| Sunburst || 8 || 80' || long || 6d6 || 6d6 || blind; 1d6/lv (max 25d6) vs undead<br />
|}<br />
<br />
My list has ''many'' more spell comparisons, divided into a range of categories - the above list is for illustrative purposes only. I am particularly interested in the ''progression'' of spell damage from level to level, and from individual targets to widespread.<br />
<br />
In general, I feel the transition from cantrips to 1st level to 2nd level to 3rd level is an impressive increase in power. Thereafter, it's a bit "meh". I've even had players ask me to be allowed to use their 4th level spell slots to memorise 3rd level spells. I could ramble on at length at specific examples, drawn from the above list and elsewhere, of how ''this'' spell doesn't seem to match up against ''that'' spell. Rather, I'll pitch the issue in a different way:<br />
<br />
'''Question 1a:''' What are your expectations of the average damage-dealing power of a spell at each level?<br />
<br />
'''Question 1b:''' If there was a spell which had the same effects as a ''fireball'' at each of the other nine levels, what would its specific characteristcs be? (I've already had a stab at this)<br />
<br />
'''Question 2a:''' Do the other details of a spell have a direct affect on your expectations of the damage-dealing power of a spell?<br />
<br />
'''Question 2b:''' If there were variants of a ''fireball'' at Level 3 that differed in the following ways, how else would they change?<br />
<br />
* touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged touch attack on one target<br />
* medium-range ranged automatic hit on one target<br />
* a cone<br />
* a radial blast centered on the caster<br />
* a radial blast centered at long range<br />
* a blast that simply did damage<br />
* a blast that knocked people prone<br />
* a blast that ignited loose materials<br />
* a blast that blinded for a round, deafened for 1d4 rounds, set your eyebrows on fire, and scared your donkey<br />
<br />
Any comments at all... please!<br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Has_anyone_seen_spell_creation_rules..%3F&diff=319626Discussion:Has anyone seen spell creation rules..?2009-01-27T13:12:17Z<p>Wesinator5: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == <br />
<br />
... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35?<br />
<br />
(Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's new release DnD4.325 coming soon.)<br />
<br />
''Background:'' I did a bit of surveying in the dark mines of 3.5 spelldom (actually, restricting myself to PHB and Spell Compendium). I went through all the different wizard spells that cause widespread damage in one form or another, trying to divine some sort of pattern in the damage dice used, the number of dice permitted, the maximum number of dice permitted, the area affected, etc. Other than roughly adhering to the tables on p36, there didn't seem to be one!<br />
<br />
Here's a sample of what I found:<br />
<br />
<table><br />
<tr><br />
<th>Spell</th><br />
<th width=50>Level</th><br />
<th width=50>Radius</th><br />
<th width=50>Range</th><br />
<th width=50>Damage</th><br />
<th width=50>Max</th><br />
<th align="left">Notes</th><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Hail of stone</td><br />
<td>1</td><br />
<td>5'</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d4/lv</td><br />
<td>5d4</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Scatterspray</td><br />
<td>1</td><td>10'</td><br />
<td>close </td><br />
<td>1d8</td><br />
<td>1d8</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Snowball swarm</td><br />
<td>2</td><br />
<td>10'</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d6/odd lv</td><br />
<td>5d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Fireball</td><br />
<td>3</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>10d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Scintillating sphere</td><br />
<td>3</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>10d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Ice storm</td><br />
<td>4</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>5d6</td><br />
<td>5d6</td><br />
<td align="left">slow, -4 to Listen</td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Firebrand</td><br />
<td>5</td><br />
<td>5' &times; lv</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>10d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Acid storm</td><br />
<td>6</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>15d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Horrid wilting</td><br />
<td>8</td><br />
<td>30'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>20d6</td><br />
<td align="left">1d8/lv (max 20d8) vs plants</td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Sunburst</td><br />
<td>8</td><br />
<td>80'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>6d6</td><br />
<td>6d6</td><br />
<td align="left">blind; 1d6/lv (max 25d6) vs undead</td><br />
</tr><br />
</table><br />
<br />
My list has ''many'' more spell comparisons, divided into a range of categories - the above list is for illustrative purposes only. I am particularly interested in the ''progression'' of spell damage from level to level, and from individual targets to widespread.<br />
<br />
In general, I feel the transition from cantrips to 1st level to 2nd level to 3rd level is an impressive increase in power. Thereafter, it's a bit "meh". I've even had players ask me to be allowed to use their 4th level spell slots to memorise 3rd level spells. I could ramble on at length at specific examples, drawn from the above list and elsewhere, of how ''this'' spell doesn't seem to match up against ''that'' spell. Rather, I'll pitch the issue in a different way:<br />
<br />
'''Question 1a:''' What are your expectations of the average damage-dealing power of a spell at each level?<br />
<br />
'''Question 1b:''' If there was a spell which had the same effects as a ''fireball'' at each of the other nine levels, what would its specific characteristcs be? (I've already had a stab at this)<br />
<br />
'''Question 2a:''' Do the other details of a spell have a direct affect on your expectations of the damage-dealing power of a spell?<br />
<br />
'''Question 2b:''' If there were variants of a ''fireball'' at Level 3 that differed in the following ways, how else would they change?<br />
<br />
<ul><br />
<li>touch attack on one target</li><br />
<li>medium-range ranged touch attack on one target</li><br />
<li>medium-range ranged automatic hit on one target</li><br />
<li>a cone</li><br />
<li>a radial blast centered on the caster</li><br />
<li>a radial blast centered at long range</li><br />
<li>a blast that simply did damage</li><br />
<li>a blast that knocked people prone</li><br />
<li>a blast that ignited loose materials</li><br />
<li>a blast that blinded for a round, deafened for 1d4 rounds, set your eyebrows on fire, and scared your donkey</li><br />
</ul><br />
<br />
Any comments at all... please!<br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Has_anyone_seen_spell_creation_rules..%3F&diff=319625Discussion:Has anyone seen spell creation rules..?2009-01-27T13:11:24Z<p>Wesinator5: New page: == Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == ... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35? (Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's ne...</p>
<hr />
<div>== Has anyone seen spell creation rules... == <br />
<br />
... other than those listed in DMG3.5 p35?<br />
<br />
(Apologies for those who have moved on to DnD4.0, and those who are piecing together Wizard's new release DnD4.325 coming soon.)<br />
<br />
''Background:'' I did a bit of surveying in the dark mines of 3.5 spelldom (actually, restricting myself to PHB and Spell Compendium). I went through all the different wizard spells that cause widespread damage in one form or another, trying to divine some sort of pattern in the damage dice used, the number of dice permitted, the maximum number of dice permitted, the area affected, etc. Other than roughly adhering to the tables on p36, there didn't seem to be one!<br />
<br />
Here's a sample of what I found:<br />
<br />
<table><br />
<tr><br />
<th>Spell</th><br />
<th width=50>Level</th><br />
<th width=50>Radius</th><br />
<th width=50>Range</th><br />
<th width=50>Damage</th><br />
<th width=50>Max</th><br />
<th align="left">Notes</th><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Hail of stone</td><br />
<td>1</td><br />
<td>5'</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d4/lv</td><br />
<td>5d4</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Scatterspray</td><br />
<td>1</td><td>10'</td><br />
<td>close </td><br />
<td>1d8</td><br />
<td>1d8</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Snowball swarm</td><br />
<td>2</td><br />
<td>10'</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d6/odd lv</td><br />
<td>5d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Fireball</td><br />
<td>3</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>10d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Scintillating sphere</td><br />
<td>3</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>10d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Ice storm</td><br />
<td>4</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>5d6</td><br />
<td>5d6</td><br />
<td align="left">slow, -4 to Listen</td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Firebrand</td><br />
<td>5</td><br />
<td>5' &times; lv</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>10d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Acid storm</td><br />
<td>6</td><br />
<td>20'</td><br />
<td>medium</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>15d6</td><br />
<td align="left"></td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Horrid wilting</td><br />
<td>8</td><br />
<td>30'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>1d6/lv</td><br />
<td>20d6</td><br />
<td align="left">1d8/lv (max 20d8) vs plants</td><br />
</tr><br />
<tr align="center"><br />
<td align="left">Sunburst</td><br />
<td>8</td><br />
<td>80'</td><br />
<td>long</td><br />
<td>6d6</td><br />
<td>6d6</td><br />
<td align="left">blind; 1d6/lv (max 25d6) vs undead</td><br />
</tr><br />
</table><br />
<br />
My list has ''many'' more spell comparisons, divided into a range of categories - the above list is for illustrative purposes only. I am particularly interested in the ''progression'' of spell damage from level to level, and from individual targets to widespread.<br />
<br />
In general, I feel the transition from cantrips to 1st level to 2nd level to 3rd level is an impressive increase in power. Thereafter, it's a bit "meh". I've even had players ask me to be allowed to use their 4th level spell slots to memorise 3rd level spells. I could ramble on at length at specific examples, drawn from the above list and elsewhere, of how ''this'' spell doesn't seem to match up against ''that'' spell. Rather, I'll pitch the issue in a different way:<br />
<br />
'''Question 1a:''' What are your expectations of the average damage-dealing power of a spell at each level?<br />
<br />
'''Question 1b:''' If there was a spell which had the same effects as a ''fireball'' at each of the other nine levels, what would its specific characteristcs be? (I've already had a stab at this)<br />
<br />
''Question 2a:''' Do the other details of a spell have a direct affect on your expectations of the damage-dealing power of a spell?<br />
<br />
'''Question 2b:''' If there were variants of a ''fireball'' at Level 3 that differed in the following ways, how else would they change?<br />
<br />
<ul><br />
<li>touch attack on one target</li><br />
<li>medium-range ranged touch attack on one target</li><br />
<li>medium-range ranged automatic hit on one target</li><br />
<li>a cone</li><br />
<li>a radial blast centered on the caster</li><br />
<li>a radial blast centered at long range</li><br />
<li>a blast that simply did damage</li><br />
<li>a blast that knocked people prone</li><br />
<li>a blast that ignited loose materials</li><br />
<li>a blast that blinded for a round, deafened for 1d4 rounds, set your eyebrows on fire, and scared your donkey</li><br />
</ul><br />
<br />
Any comments at all... please!<br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
<br />
To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
<br />
=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
--><br />
<br />
{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>Wesinator5