https://www.dandwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=ShadowyFigure&feedformat=atomD&D Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T11:00:28ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.8https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2mtomh&diff=407132User talk:2mtomh2009-08-26T23:31:44Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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<div>== Welcome to D&D Wiki! == <br />
<br />
;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the old D&D Wiki if you are looking for what is a better run and more efficient site please make your way to http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everyth<br />
;Questions:<br />
If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:20, 26 August 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jeeves&diff=407131User talk:Jeeves2009-08-26T23:31:24Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the old D&D Wiki if you are looking for what is a better run and more efficient site please make your way to http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everyth<br />
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If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:21, 26 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== TK's Idea of Balance... ==<br />
<br />
...is obviously not the same as yours. If multiple people rated the class well for power, then perhaps the mistake is not on his part. If you are comparing them to an [SRD:Fighter|SRD fighter]], then of course they are powerful (the SRD fighter sucks major donkey balls). You can't just say pages that are already completed by someone else are too powerful without providing justification, and it is even more critical that the original work of they author be preserved if it has previously been judged to be of good quality.<br />
<br />
Even with the [[Keeper of Secrets (3.5e Prestige Class)|Keeper of Secrets]], where the author had already had suspicions of balance issues, you shouldn't just halve every numerical effect in the class (you're basically cutting it off at the knees). The work of the original author should be respected, regardless of what Green Dragon says. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 08:07, 25 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Welcome Jeeves! If you are having issues with other's idea of balance ''(trust me, so do I)'' the easiest method, even with the current adoption policy, would be just to copy it all and create a new variant with your new stats. i.e. Item (3.5e item) could become Item, Jeeves Variant (3.5e item) or the like. May just make it easier on all fronts. Just an idea. But welcome aboard! If you need any assistance please feel free to ask. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid black; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:Black; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:Black; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:black; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:black; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:10, 25 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Welcome bro. I've seen your adoption work. Fancy stuff my man. I can't wait to see your original stuff too. See ya around. --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 10:19, 25 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Seriously, man, I hope his original stuff is better because his so-called "adopted works" were just TK's with his name slapped on it and all the effects halved. You can't seriously be giving him credit for that. -- [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 04:27, 26 August 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dark_Necrofear&diff=407130User talk:Dark Necrofear2009-08-26T23:31:13Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the old D&D Wiki if you are looking for what is a better run and more efficient site please make your way to http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everyth<br />
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If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:21, 26 August 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Vorked_Larfleeze&diff=407129User talk:Vorked Larfleeze2009-08-26T23:30:36Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the old D&D Wiki if you are looking for what is a better run and more efficient site please make your way to http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. <br />
;Questions:<br />
If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:21, 26 August 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Calamity_Unbound&diff=407128User talk:Calamity Unbound2009-08-26T23:30:18Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the old D&D Wiki if you are looking for what is a better run and more efficient site please make your way to http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everyth<br />
;Questions:<br />
If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:21, 26 August 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Halxxr&diff=407127User talk:Halxxr2009-08-26T23:30:05Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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<div>== Welcome to D&D Wiki! == <br />
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;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the old D&D Wiki if you are looking for what is a better run and more efficient site please make your way to http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everyth<br />
;Questions:<br />
If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:21, 26 August 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jtpurdom&diff=407126User talk:Jtpurdom2009-08-26T23:29:53Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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<div>== Welcome to D&D Wiki! == <br />
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;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to the old D&D Wiki if you are looking for what is a better run and more efficient site please make your way to http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everyth<br />
;Questions:<br />
If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:22, 26 August 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Orc,_Variant_(4e_Racial_Trait_Variant)&diff=406365Orc, Variant (4e Racial Trait Variant)2009-08-24T18:28:41Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{delete |12:28, 24 August 2009 (MDT)|No longer a member of this wiki}}<br />
<br />
{{Author<br />
|author_name=ShadowyFigure<br />
|date_created=<br />
|status= Incomplete <br />
|editing= Constructive Edits.<br />
}}<br />
==Orc==<br />
<br />
'''''The plague of the civilized races, and the world.'''''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=6'0" - 6'5"<br />
|weight=200 – 230 lb<br />
|abilities=+2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability Scores|Strength]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability Scores|Constitution]]<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision=Low-Light<br />
|languages=Common, Giant<br />
|trait1=Running Charge<br />
|description1= When you charge, add 2 to your speed.<br />
|trait2=Warrior’s Surge<br />
|description2=You can use warrior’s surge as an encounter power<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Warrior's Surge<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Orc<br />
|type=Racial<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=You charge with unstoppable ferocity unhampered by terrain or foe.<br />
|keyword1=Healing<br />
|keyword2=Weapon<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|trigger=<!-- The trigger for the power. --><br />
|range=<!-- Ranged, Close Burst, Melee, etc. --><br />
|rangemod=<!-- The range in squares this attack has. --><br />
|prerequisite=<!-- Prerequisites to use this attack. --><br />
|requirement=<!-- Requirements to use this attack. --><br />
|target=<!-- Primary target for the power. --><br />
|attack=Strength vs AC<!-- Attack stat against the primary target. --><br />
|defense=<!-- Defense stat for the primary target. --><br />
|attackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|hit=1[w] + Strength modifier damage, and you can spend a healing surge.<!-- What to do when the primary attack hits. --><br />
increase to 2[w] + Strength modifier damage at 21st level.<br />
|miss=<!-- What to do when the primary attack misses. --><br />
|secondarytarget=<!-- Secondary target for the power. --><br />
|secondaryattack=<!-- Attack stat against the secondary target. --><br />
|secondaryattackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|secondarydefense=<!-- Defense stat for the secondary target. --><br />
|secondaryhit=<!-- What to do when the secondary attack hits. --><br />
|secondarymiss=<!-- What to do when the secondary attack misses. --><br />
|tertiarytarget=<!-- Tertiary target for the power. --><br />
|tertiaryattack=<!-- Attack stat against the tertiary target. --><br />
|tertiaryattackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|tertiarydefense=<!-- Defense stat for the tertiary target. --><br />
|tertiaryhit=<!-- What to do when the tertiary attack hits. --><br />
|tertiarymiss=<!-- What to do when the tertiary attack misses. --><br />
|effect=Make a charge. For this charge only, you ignore difficult terrain and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.<br />
|extra=<!-- Any extra text you want to add. --><br />
|sustain=<!-- How the power is sustained. --><br />
|special=<!-- Special text. --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
Most Orc tribes worship Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of slaughter. They are a savage race, bloodthirsty, and violent. They are known to roam the land, ripping apart civilizations. Orcs are a very violent race, often waging war between large clans and battle groups. The Orcs love close combat, the taste and feel that a battle provides, and tend to eschew ranged weapons like the longbow or sling for a good warhammer or axe. Most orcs in the tribe follow their leaders into battle, following the strongest and most powerful in their tribe. Orcs rarely retreat or surrender, and would rather die in battle, pursuing the kill. As in most primitive societies, orc civilization utilizes hereditary classes, and certain members of the society are born into warrior, servant, and leader classes. However, this society is far more "egalitarian" than others, favoring strength and allowing worthy lower-class orcs to move up in the system. <br />
<br />
Orcs believe that they were created from Grummsh, the one-eyed god who asks his followers to multiply, raid, kill, and conquer. Gruumsh created the orcs in his image, placing them on all parts of the world to maximize the carnage that ensued. Often, to thank Gruumsh, a superbly strong orc will remove one of his eyes as a tribute to the one-eyed god of slaughter. Most Orcs are surprisingly honorable when it comes to defeating an enemy, never resorting to underhanded trickery in their battle "tactics". They work off an ideology that every person they kill gives them strength and some tribes even consume enemies, or sacrifice them to Gruumsh.<br />
<br />
<!-- Orcs are fierce creatures created purely for one thing: War. For this reason, and the fact that many orcs don't speak Common, it is very rare to see an orc in the civilized world, let alone adventuring. However, sometimes an orc is born with an unusually intelligent brain and cast out of its' tribe, or an orc child is captured by a raiding party and spared. Orcs are predisposed to evil, and chaotic evil at that, but orcs raised in the civilized world can be good, or even lawful good with a creative backstory.--><br />
<br />
Play an Orc if you want...<br />
* To be a tough, brutal, and intimidating hero who is feared by many.<br />
* To excel in physical combat.<br />
* To play a unique character that will literally turn heads, if not bows, in every city you come to.<br />
* To be a member of a race that favors the Fighter, Warlord and Barbarian class. <br />
<br />
===Physical Qualities===<br />
<br />
Orcs are tall, broad and muscular, lacking all of the grace and subtlety of most other races. Taller than humans, the skin of an orc can range from gray to a dark green. Most male orcs shave their heads in order to enhance their battle-readiness. However, some females may keep their hair long. <br><br />
<br />
<!--Someone fix the rest. I can't do any more--><br />
<br />
Orcs that originate from tribes tend to have tattoos covering their chests and backs with axes, skulls and Orc symbols being very common, a Orc will normally receive or place these on his own body when he has proven himself in defeating a powerful opponent <!--stronger and superior to another being,--> The more of these a tribal orc has on their body the more powerful they are likely to be.<!-- As young male adolescents receiving theirs after raiding villages in the wastes or slaying a fellow they have challenged in mortal combat.--><br><br />
<br />
Due to the manner in which the Orcs were created, and shown by how their diety leads them, Orc can<!-- lost the famous long age of the elves,--> live for as long as a Human in most cases, children are expected to toughen up quickly handling weapons as early as 8 years old when a Orc is normally as tall as a adolescent human of their gender, Though the orc race due to its violent ways doesn't result in them living to their highest life expectancy, as well as the unhealthy way they often live. Those in the armies tend to grow up with similar swiftness though they are considered battle ready by the age ten. <!--with many of the Human run slaving camps using alchemical means to make growth more rapid taking around six or seven months to raise an Orc to be strong and tough enough to fight in battle.--><br />
<br />
===Playing an Orc===<br />
<br />
Full Blooded Orc heros are not too common, their are a large number of orcs however they rarely leave their tribe outside of marriage, or being forcibly removed due to defeat, and shame. Most orcs are murderous marauders who ake for the thrill of battle, and are very selfish looters. However their are a few groups of orcs that well crude, violent and barbaric, some have experienced the luxuries of a civilization over their tents and movable huts. Usually they have a low intelligence and act quickly without thinking, they act on their baser instinct however have too much pride to be ashamed of past action.<br />
<br />
Orc often come from tribes having gone off to start their own, or challenging the leader for power and loosing. Some orcs have seen the luxuries that cities have, and choose to live in them, Other orcs seen in towns might be mercenaries, hired to kill as part of an army, or as an assassin, though Orc assassins are in no way stealthy, or hide the fact that they are one. Orcs enjoy being hired to kill because it merges their love of the fight for their love of material things.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Orc Characteristics:''' Brash, ferocious, hedonistic, impulsive, short-tempered, tough, uninhibited, Honorable<br />
<br />
'''Male Names:''' Brug, Dorn, Druuk, Gnarsh, Grumbar, Hogar, Karash, Korgul, Krusk, Lubash, Mord, Ohr, Rendar, Sark, Scrag, Tanglar, Tarak, Thar, Ugarth, Yurk<br />
<br />
'''Female Names:''' Augh, Bree, Ekk, Gaaki, Grai, Grigri, Gynk, Huru, Lagazi, Murook, Nogu, Ootah, Puyet, Tawar, Tomph, Ubada, Vanchu<br />
<br />
===Orc Adventurers===<br />
Three samples of an Orc Adventurer are described below.<br />
<!--Adventurers of your race--><br />
Krusk, a male orc fighter who lived his life in a tribe of fellow orcs, however as he began to come of age he was never quiet strong enough to be a part of the raids and was often left back with the tribeswoman, one day as your tribe was out on a hunt your tribe was attacked by an army, You managed to fight your best however everyone in the tribe was slaughtered. For some reason you managed to survive this onslaught and only a few of your tribesmen returned from the raid. Disgusted with you your orc brothers told you to get lost or die, overcome with anger they began to beat you to a pulp before ignoring you to look for any others who could have been alive. During this time you managed to grab a few weapons and leave for a city where you sold the extra weapons for a place to stay, aking for revenge against those who killed your tribe, and wanting to prove yourself to your kin.<br />
<br />
Ekk, a female orc Warden always tried her best to fight in the battles, training with the boys, however she was always left back during the raid because of her gender. Growing up she became able to fight along the men, and do labor with the women. Knowing that she could never fight as she wanted Ekk left the village and headed out to defeat as many opponents as she could, collecting ornaments of their death to return to her tribe in display of their power.<br />
<br />
Hogar, a male orc barbarian living with his tribe had a fowl temper even among orcs, starting fights with everything he could throwing punches at anyone he could. One day during his training and beating up of other orcs the Chieftain gripped his arm and told him to cool down or the others wouldn't be able to trust him in battle. The Orc was so overwhelmed with violent thoughts and did not wish to be seen as anything but an Alpha male, he attacked the Orc Chief stating that the tribe must be lead by the strongest, and in this act lost. After Hogar was removed from the tribe his temper cooled slightly, Hogar seeks violence in every manner, more than anything else he wishes to be enthralled in the thrill of battle.<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{4e Races Breadcrumb}} &rarr; [[4e User Races|User Races]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:4e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Race]]<br />
[[Category:Fey]]<br />
[[Category:Humanoid Type]]<br />
[[Category:Project Chaos]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Dragonborn,_Age_of_War_(4e_Racial_Trait_Variant)&diff=406364Dragonborn, Age of War (4e Racial Trait Variant)2009-08-24T18:28:29Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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<br />
{{author<br />
|author_name=ShadowyFigure<br />
|date_created=14/04/2009<br />
|status=Complete At-Last!<br />
}}<br />
== Dragonborn, Variant ==<br />
'''''A race born from the blood of Io.'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=6'2" - 6'8"<br />
|weight=220 - 320lb<br />
|abilities=+2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability scores|Charisma]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability scores|Strength]]<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision=[[4e Index (4e Other)#low-light vision|Low-Light Vision]]<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], [[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Draconic]]<br />
|skills=+2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Intimidate skill|Intimidate]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Endurance skill|Endurance]]<br />
|trait1=Strength of the Clan<br />
|description1=You gain a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against [[4e Index (4e Other)#ongoing damage|ongoing damage]], [[4e Index (4e Other)#dazed|dazed]] and [[4e Index (4e Other)#fear|fear]] effects while [[4e Index (4e Other)#bloodied|bloodied]]. In addition you have a +5 racial bonus to [[4e Index (4e Other)#death saving throw|death saving throws]].<br />
|trait2=Draconic Heritage<br />
|description2=Your [[4e Index (4e Other)#healing surge value|healing surge value]] is equal to one-quarter of your maximum hit points + your constitution modifier. <br />
|trait3=Dragon Breath<br />
|description3=You can use ''dragon breath'' as an [[4e Index (4e Other)#encounter power|encounter power]].<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Dragonbreath<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Dragonborn<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=You hold the power of Io and his children...<br />
|keyword1=Acid<br />
|keyword2=Cold<br />
|keyword3=Fire<br />
|keyword4=Lightning<br />
|keyword5=Poison<br />
|actiontype=Minor Action<br />
|trigger=<!-- The trigger for the power. --><br />
|range=Special<br />
|rangemod=<br />
|prerequisite=<!-- Prerequisites to use this attack. --><br />
|requirement=<!-- Requirements to use this attack. --><br />
|target=All creature in area.<br />
|attack=Strength +2 , Constitution +2 or, Dexterity +2 <br />
|defense=Reflex<br />
|attackextra=<br />
|hit= 1d6 + Constitution modifier damage.<br />
|miss=<!-- What to do when the primary attack misses. --><br />
|secondarytarget=<!-- Secondary target for the power. --><br />
|secondaryattack=<!-- Attack stat against the secondary target. --><br />
|secondaryattackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|secondarydefense=<!-- Defense stat for the secondary target. --><br />
|secondaryhit=<!-- What to do when the secondary attack hits. --><br />
|secondarymiss=<!-- What to do when the secondary attack misses. --><br />
|tertiarytarget=<!-- Tertiary target for the power. --><br />
|tertiaryattack=<!-- Attack stat against the tertiary target. --><br />
|tertiaryattackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|tertiarydefense=<!-- Defense stat for the tertiary target. --><br />
|tertiaryhit=<!-- What to do when the tertiary attack hits. --><br />
|tertiarymiss=<!-- What to do when the tertiary attack misses. --><br />
|effect=<br />
|extra=Increase to +4 bonus and 2d6 + Constitution modifier damage at 11th level, and to +6 bonus and 3d6 + Constitution modifier damage.<br />
|sustain=<!-- How the power is sustained. --><br />
|special=When you create your character, Choose Strength, Constitution or Dexterity as the ability score you when making attack rolls with this power. You can also choose the power’s damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning or poison. In addition, choose one of the following ranges for this power: close blast 3 or Area ranged 10 burst 1.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
And so Io fell to the earth his blood a red rain on the earth. And so the power of the great Dragon, the first and most powerful warped and changed the people of the earth, and so the Dragonborn where born.<br />
The Dragonborn are a powerful race, powerful, yet somehow graceful they are a race of proud honour bound warriors stuck in a sad, seemingly never ending war between their individual clans.<br />
<br />
Play a Dragonborn if you want...<br />
*To be a member of a powerful race with a hidden grace about them.<br />
*To be an honour bound humanoid, with a draconic heritage.<br />
*To be a member of a race that favours the Fighter, Warlord and Sorcerer classes. <br />
<br />
=== Physical Qualities ===<br />
<br />
Dragonborn are tall and powerful statues there physical form barely paying tribute to their natural strength and endurance, each Dragonborn is a example of draconic power, each ones physical features varying based on the strength of the blood that courses through their veins. Most are between six and seven feet talk, coming to their maximum height during adolescence. During the seven years of their short child span a Dragonborn scales harden and slowly change to the colour that they will hold for the rest of their life. <br />
It is during this time talons begin to grow on their hands and in rare cases a tail grows from the base of their spine. <br />
[[Image:Dragonborn.png|thumb|An Adolescent and Adult Dragon Born.]]<br />
For the majority of Dragonborn there growth ends at adult hood, powerful and muscular there scales come in a variety of colours as great as the shades, and shapes humans come in, however a rare few continue to grow in there elder life, more commonly among those who grow a tail during their younger years, these Dragonborn who grow through out there Elder Life often grow taller and there shade become darker and stronger as two bat like wings similar to that of a Dragon grow from their shoulder blades. <br />
<br />
Dragonborn have a life span similar to that of a human, though they grow through child hood, into adolescence and then adult hood faster and mature in body and mind allot quicker. <br />
<br />
=== Playing an Dragonborn ===<br />
<br />
The Dragonborn are among the most honourable races in the world, and have been around as long as some of the oldest of the worlds races.<br><br />
A Dragonborn’s entire civilization is based around honour and heroic deeds, though not everyone thinks of this when they think of the Dragonborn. Due to the nature of their warfare many look down on the Dragonborn seeing them as more of a primal uncivilized race like the Orcs only seeing the constant battle between each individual clan and the damage such battles have caused. <br />
This has caused mistrust and distaste between the Dragonborn and the other races many of which see the appearance of a Dragonborn as a sign that trouble is brewing. Dragonborn do however have civility in their lives for a Dragonborn there is nothing more important than the protection of their Clan name and the people they care about.<br />
Friendship from Dragonborn is a matter of great importance to the race as they are often so focused on the strength and protection of their clan that to accept a member of another race as one of their own is a promise of eternal protection and respect. <br />
These situations tend to only happen when a Dragonborn has left his clan to travel the world however, an act that is often seen as treason and betrayal, making such friendships illegitimate to the clan in which such Dragonborn originated.<br />
This is not so say that all Dragonborn who leave their clan are abandoning their people, knowing that those who abandon their clan will have a life of being hunted down ahead of them many of the races younger less experienced warriors leave the clan on a journey of self exploration and training, Knowing that should they return to their clan lands that they would be better able to defend their friends and family as well as their clans and their own honour.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Dragonborn Characteristics:''' Driven, honour-bound, noble, reliable, the splitting image of dragons and born among clans.<br />
<br />
'''Male Names:'''Arjhan, Balasar, Bharash, Donaar, Ghesh, Heskan, Kriv, Medrash, Nadarr, Patrin, Rhogar, Shamash, Shedinn, Torinn<br />
<br />
'''Female Names:'''Akra, Biri, Daar, HArann, Kava, Korinn, Mishann, Nala, Perra, Sora, Surina, Thava<br />
<br />
=== Dragonborn Adventurers ===<br />
Three sample dragonborn adventurers are described below.<br><br />
Torinn is a dragonborn [[4e Index (4e Other)#Warlord|warlord]], after his entire clan being wiped out he left his home lands to seeking greater power, so that one day he would return with a new clan of his own and return honour to his name.<br><br />
Thava is a dragonborn sorcerer, exiled after a terrible accident during her training she wanders the worlds seeking out teachers of arcane power so that one day she may return to her clan and clear her name as an incompetent spell caster.<br><br />
Patrin is a dragonborn [[4e Index (4e Other)#Fighter|fighter]], after his father abandoned the clan it was he who would be charged with tracking him down and slaying him. It was with this journey Patrin would prove he has what it takes to be a warrior among his clan. <br><br />
<br />
----<br />
{{4e User Races Breadcrumb}}, <br><br />
Back to [[Main Page]] &rarr; [[4e Homebrew]] &rarr; [[DnD Campaign Settings|Campaign Settings]] &rarr; [[Age of War (4e Campaign Setting)|Age of War]] &rarr; [[Age of War Player's Guide (Age of War Supplement)|Age of War Player's Guide]] &rarr; [[Races (Age of War Player's Guide Supplement)|Races]]<br />
[[Category:4e]]<br />
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[[Category:Race]]<br />
[[Category:Age of War Setting]]<br />
[[Category:Age of War Setting Player's Guide Setting]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aasimar_(4e_Race)&diff=406363Aasimar (4e Race)2009-08-24T18:27:56Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
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{{Author<br />
|author_name=ShadowyFigure<br />
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<br />
== Aasimar ==<br />
<br />
'''''Aasimar are descendants and offspring of a once great angel race, cast down into mortalhood by a curse...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=6&rsquo;10&rdquo;&ndash;7&rsquo;2&rdquo;<br />
|weight=175&ndash;200 lb.<br />
|abilities=+2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability scores|Wisdom]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability scores|Charisma]]<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision=[[4e Index (4e Other)#low-light vision|Low-light]]<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#languages and scripts|Common]], choice of one other<br />
|skills=+2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Diplomacy skill|Diplomacy]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Perception skill|Perception]]<br />
|trait1=Resist Energy |description1=You gain resist [[4e Index (4e Other)#damage type|cold]] 5 + one-half your character level.<br />
|trait2=Immortal Roots |description2=You gain a +1 [[4e Index (4e Other)#bonuses and penalties|racial bonus]] to [[4e Index (4e Other)#Fortitude|Fortitude]] defense, and a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against poison effects.<br />
|trait3=Angel Born |description3=Your race is the offspring of a once great [[4e Index (4e Other)#Angel|angel]] race, and so you are considered an immortal for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin.<br />
|trait4=Ancestral Smite |description4=You can use ''ancestral smite'' as an [[4e Index (4e Other)#encounter power|encounter power]].<br />
}}<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Ancestral Smite<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Aasimar<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=The woman's eyes seemed to be filled with a bright white light as she brought down her weapon in a powerful blow filled with the divine energies of her ancestors...<br />
|keyword1=Divine<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|range=Ranged<br />
|rangemod=5<br />
|target=One Creature in range.<br />
|attack=Charisma<br />
|defense=Will<br />
|attackextra= or Wisdom vs. Will<br />
|hit=1d4 + Charisma Modifier Radiant Damage or 1d4 + Wisdom Modifier Radiant Damage.<br>Increase to 2d4 damage at 11th level.<br>Increase to 3d4 damage at 21st level.<br />
|effect=The target takes 2 ongoing radiant damage (save ends).<br>Increase to 5 ongoing damage at 11th level.<br>Increase to 10 ongoing damage at 21st level.<br />
|special=When you create your character, choose Charisma or Wisdom as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. This choice remains throughout your characters life and does not change the power's other effects.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{quote|''We once lit the heavens with fire and lightning, our divine energies radiating as we flew into battle, but that was long ago. Before the curse that fell on our race...''}}<br />
<br />
The Aasimar are the remnants of a once beautiful race of angels who were divided between masters, in time this formed into a great war between the {{I}}Angel|Angel]] race, a fight between good and evil that ended with a curse. Angered by the behavior of their servants the two gods struck down the angels, tearing their immortality away and sending them to the {{I}} D&D world, the|material plane]]. In time the newly named Aasimar spread all over the world breeding with one another to create the Aasimar of today. A mortal yet powerful angel race with their immortal wisdom still intact. <br />
<br />
Play an Aasimar if you want...<br />
* To play a wise and charismatic race.<br />
* To be the offspring of a once great angel race.<br />
* To be a member of a race that favors the {{I}}Paladin|Paladin]], {{I}}Cleric|Cleric]] and {{I}}Warlock|Warlock]] classes.<br />
<br />
=== Physical Qualities ===<br />
<br />
Aasimar were once a great {{I}}Angel|angelic]] race; resembling angels in many ways. Aasimar's skin tones, eye color, and overall physical appearance make them seem unworldly to some and unnatural to others. From golden skin to vibrantly shining eyes; Aasimar are considered unnatural in many locales. Taller than {{I}}Human|humans]], arguably a tribute to the glorious days when they wielded great {{I}}divine|divine]] power, and unnaturally strong, they are often shunned for their unique appearance. Even though most Aasimar are considered unnatural their entire lives many end up living hundreds to thousands of years; hardly changing their appearance after 20 years of age.<br />
<br />
[[Image:Excerpt 4E angel2.jpg|thumb]]<br />
<br />
===Playing an Aasimar===<br />
<br />
Aasimar find no comforts in {{I}}Human|human]] societies, and only in their hidden monasteries do they ever truly feel at home. It is because of this Aasimar tend to travel, following whatever path they wish, so that can find their place in the world. Some are drawn to divine paths, such as that of the {{I}}Paladin|Paladin]] or {{I}}Cleric|Clerics]], while others wish to see the stars like they once did, becoming {{I}}Warlock|Warlocks]], though these tend to just be fancies to pass the time, as there is normally plenty of it for an Aasimar. <br />
<br />
It is common for Aasimar to seek the answer to immortality, wishing to return their once great selves or at least some different forms of themselves. Many of the Aasimar race wish to seek revenge against their now long forgotten masters, with many people sensing this determination. Aasimar are often intimidating to be around, and anyone stuck in conversation with an Aasimar often finds themselves either on the edge of fright or hanging on the edge of the Aasimar's every word. As the offspring of {{I}}Angel|angels]], Aasimar are protective of their ideals, and many will protect them to the death.<br />
<br />
Aasimar are often found in cities, whether in temples as preachers, or in a nobles house as a guard. It is general knowledge once you are sworn under the protection of Aasimar, you are as safe as it gets. If you were to ever visit an Aasimar city, you would find it guarded 24 hours a day, its prismatic walls protecting all inside from the dangers of the astral sea. Many people in fact visit such cities so they can see the astral sea from a different perspective, and it is said the radiant energies reflection on the sea is beautiful sight to see. It is also in these cities the Aasimars' Angelic heritage is most shown, as a visitor will often find themselves asked if they require any help, or if there is a task that one of the many young Aasimar warriors may complete for them.<br />
<br />
'''Aasimar Characteristics:''' Brave, Wise, Honorable, Courageous, Noble, Defensive.<br />
<br />
'''Male Names:''' Camael, Ecanus, Forfax, Gazardiel, Hael.<br />
<br />
'''Female Names:''' Cathetal, Dina, Forcae, Gabrielus, Muriel.<br />
<br />
=== Aasimar Adventurers ===<br />
<br />
Three Sample Aasimar adventurers are described below:<br />
<br />
Muriel is a Aasimar {{I}}Paladin|Paladin]], from a young age she has always thought greatly of herself and for this reason seeks power. With this power granted by her new master {{I}}gods|Hextor]] she hopes to have revenge against her old masters and regain her immortality. Muriel is a power warrior for this reason and fuels her attacks with her undying wish for revenge, and is known as a Astral weapon among her fellow worshipers. <br />
<br />
Forfax is a Aasimar {{I}}Warlock|Warlock]]. Crazed by astral whispers in his sleep, the young Aasimar struck a pact with a great power so that he can hear their message clearly and it is because of this his mission was formed. From an early stage in his life Forfax strove to do good around him, knowing that some day he would finally find his forgotten masters, finally joining whichever side that accepts him as an all powerful creature. It is known for him to often gaze at the stars at night muttering to himself about the hidden gateways and scriptures in the sky.<br />
<br />
Hael is a Aasimar {{I}}Cleric|Cleric]], a powerful healer of {{I}}gods|Pelor]]. Hael was taken into a monastery from an early age wishing to use the divine powers locked in his blood to help others. In time Hael rose to the rank of head priest in his monastery and so left to preach the doctrines of Pelor to the people of the world. In his divine mission he joined others hoping that Pelors light would help them too.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{4e User Races Breadcrumb}}<br />
[[Category:4e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Race]]<br />
[[Category:Humanoid Type]]<br />
[[Category:Angel Subtype]]<br />
'''Bold text'''</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure&diff=406360User:ShadowyFigure2009-08-24T18:26:05Z<p>ShadowyFigure: Undo revision 406022 by ShadowyFigure (Talk)</p>
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</div><br />
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==About Me==<br />
<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==About Me on the Wiki==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Wiki Information==<br />
*[[User:ShadowyFigure/My Stuff|My Stuff]], <br />
* '''Current Project:''' [[Age of War Campaign Guide (Age of War Supplement)]], [[Age of War Player's Guide (Age of War Supplement)]]<br />
* '''Campaign Settings:''' [[Age of War (4e Campaign Setting)]]<br />
* '''Adopted:''' <br />
* '''To Do:''' To Many Things.<br />
* '''Sandbox:''' [[User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Human)|Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Human)]], [[User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Infernal Heritage)|Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Infernal Heritage)]]<br />
* '''Random Page:''' <br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==Userpage==<br />
Please feel free to use this User Page template for your own page! THANKS HOOPER!)<br />
</div><br />
==To Do/Awards==<br />
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left"<br />
|-<br />
! width="50%" | '''The To Do list:''' !! Awards<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
'''Active Development'''<br />
<br />
;Things to add<br />
<br />
;Ideas (Things to Write)<br />
<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br><br />
<br />
[[Category:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure&diff=406022User:ShadowyFigure2009-08-23T09:33:16Z<p>ShadowyFigure: Replacing page with 'Goodbye!'</p>
<hr />
<div>Goodbye!</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox_(Human)&diff=367278User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Human)2009-06-09T18:08:22Z<p>ShadowyFigure: New page: == Human, Variant == '''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...''''' {{Template:4e Racial Traits |height=5'6" - 6'2" |weight=135lb - 220lb |abilities= +2 to any one ability score. |size=Medium |spe...</p>
<hr />
<div>== Human, Variant ==<br />
'''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=5'6" - 6'2"<br />
|weight=135lb - 220lb<br />
|abilities= +2 to any one ability score.<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision= Normal<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], and one other.<br />
|skills=+2 to any two choices.<br />
|trait1=Bonus Feat<br />
|description1=You gain a bonus feat at 1st level. <br />
|trait2= Bonus At-Will Power<br />
|description2=You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class. <br />
|trait3=Human Instinct<br />
|description3=You gain a +2 racial bonus to [[4e Index (4e Other)#Fortitude defense|Fortitude]], [[4e Index (4e Other)#Reflex defense|Reflex]] or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Will defense|Will]] defense.<br />
|trait4=Human Adaption<br />
|description4=You can choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
=== Physical Qualities ===<br />
<br />
=== Playing a Human ===<br />
<br />
=== Human Adventurers ===<br />
<br />
'''Human Characteristics:'''<br><br />
'''Human Names:'''<br><br />
'''Human Adventurers'''<br></div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox_(Infernal_Heritage)&diff=367277User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Infernal Heritage)2009-06-09T18:07:53Z<p>ShadowyFigure: New page: == Infernal Heritage == ===Infernal Heritage [Bloodline Feat]=== ''Infernal powers run through your veins...'' '''Tier:''' Heroic '''Prerequisite:''' [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Sc...</p>
<hr />
<div>== Infernal Heritage ==<br />
<br />
===Infernal Heritage [Bloodline Feat]===<br />
<br />
''Infernal powers run through your veins...''<br />
<br />
'''Tier:''' Heroic <br />
<br />
'''Prerequisite:''' [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Int]] 13, or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Cha]] 13<br />
<br />
'''Benefit:''' You gain ''Infernal Wrath'' as an encounter power, I'n additon you gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks made against Devils.<br />
<br />
'''Special:''' You are considered a Devil for the purpose of effects that relate to Devils.</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure&diff=367276User:ShadowyFigure2009-06-09T18:07:45Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Wiki Information */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style="width: 50%; padding: 1px; background-color: #003F87; margin: 1px; background-color: #003F87; border: 1px; #1874CD; float:right;"><br />
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 100%; "<br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 2px 5px;" |<font style = "color: #000000>'''About Me'''</font><br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: right;" |<font style="font-weight: bold; color: #000000;"></font><br />
|- valign="center"<br />
|align="center" colspan="2" |[[Image:shadowyfigure.JPG|400px|center]]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Name'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | '''ShadowyFigure''' <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''A/S/L/'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | 16 / Male / The Land of up your Narnia<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Occupation'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | Student <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Facts'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" |<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Interests'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Other Online Activities'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2"| <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Family'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Wiki Goals'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Contact'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | * email[mailto:onemanhorde@gmail.com]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''External Links'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 10px"|[http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/ShadowyFigure'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp; My Contributions&nbsp;</span>''']<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: center;" |[[User talk:ShadowyFigure|'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp;My Talk&nbsp;</span>''']]<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==User since 03/23/07==<br />
{|align=center<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==About Me==<br />
<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==About Me on the Wiki==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Wiki Information==<br />
*[[User:ShadowyFigure/My Stuff|My Stuff]], <br />
* '''Current Project:''' [[Age of War Campaign Guide (Age of War Supplement)]], [[Age of War Player's Guide (Age of War Supplement)]]<br />
* '''Campaign Settings:''' [[Age of War (4e Campaign Setting)]]<br />
* '''Adopted:''' <br />
* '''To Do:''' To Many Things.<br />
* '''Sandbox:''' [[User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Human)|Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Human)]], [[User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Infernal Heritage)|Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Infernal Heritage)]]<br />
* '''Random Page:''' <br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==Userpage==<br />
Please feel free to use this User Page template for your own page! THANKS HOOPER!)<br />
</div><br />
==To Do/Awards==<br />
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left"<br />
|-<br />
! width="50%" | '''The To Do list:''' !! Awards<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
'''Active Development'''<br />
<br />
;Things to add<br />
<br />
;Ideas (Things to Write)<br />
<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br><br />
<br />
[[Category:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox&diff=367275User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox2009-06-09T18:06:38Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Human, Variant ==<br />
'''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=5'6" - 6'2"<br />
|weight=135lb - 220lb<br />
|abilities= +2 to any one ability score.<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision= Normal<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], and one other.<br />
|skills=+2 to any two choices.<br />
|trait1=Bonus Feat<br />
|description1=You gain a bonus feat at 1st level. <br />
|trait2= Bonus At-Will Power<br />
|description2=You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class. <br />
|trait3=Human Instinct<br />
|description3=You gain a +2 racial bonus to [[4e Index (4e Other)#Fortitude defense|Fortitude]], [[4e Index (4e Other)#Reflex defense|Reflex]] or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Will defense|Will]] defense.<br />
|trait4=Human Adaption<br />
|description4=You can choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
=== Physical Qualities ===<br />
<br />
=== Playing a Human ===<br />
<br />
=== Human Adventurers ===<br />
<br />
'''Human Characteristics:'''<br><br />
'''Human Names:'''<br><br />
'''Human Adventurers'''<br></div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure&diff=367274User:ShadowyFigure2009-06-09T18:05:51Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div><div style="width: 50%; padding: 1px; background-color: #003F87; margin: 1px; background-color: #003F87; border: 1px; #1874CD; float:right;"><br />
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 100%; "<br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 2px 5px;" |<font style = "color: #000000>'''About Me'''</font><br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: right;" |<font style="font-weight: bold; color: #000000;"></font><br />
|- valign="center"<br />
|align="center" colspan="2" |[[Image:shadowyfigure.JPG|400px|center]]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Name'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | '''ShadowyFigure''' <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''A/S/L/'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | 16 / Male / The Land of up your Narnia<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Occupation'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | Student <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Facts'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" |<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Interests'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Other Online Activities'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2"| <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Family'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Wiki Goals'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Contact'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | * email[mailto:onemanhorde@gmail.com]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''External Links'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 10px"|[http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/ShadowyFigure'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp; My Contributions&nbsp;</span>''']<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: center;" |[[User talk:ShadowyFigure|'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp;My Talk&nbsp;</span>''']]<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==User since 03/23/07==<br />
{|align=center<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==About Me==<br />
<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==About Me on the Wiki==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Wiki Information==<br />
*[[User:ShadowyFigure/My Stuff|My Stuff]], <br />
* '''Current Project:''' [[Age of War Campaign Guide (Age of War Supplement)]], [[Age of War Player's Guide (Age of War Supplement)]]<br />
* '''Campaign Settings:''' [[Age of War (4e Campaign Setting)]]<br />
* '''Adopted:''' <br />
* '''To Do:''' To Many Things.<br />
* '''Sandbox:''' [[User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Human)|Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox (Human)]], <br />
* '''Random Page:''' <br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==Userpage==<br />
Please feel free to use this User Page template for your own page! THANKS HOOPER!)<br />
</div><br />
==To Do/Awards==<br />
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left"<br />
|-<br />
! width="50%" | '''The To Do list:''' !! Awards<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
'''Active Development'''<br />
<br />
;Things to add<br />
<br />
;Ideas (Things to Write)<br />
<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br><br />
<br />
[[Category:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure&diff=367264User:ShadowyFigure2009-06-09T16:53:49Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Wiki Information */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style="width: 50%; padding: 1px; background-color: #003F87; margin: 1px; background-color: #003F87; border: 1px; #1874CD; float:right;"><br />
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 100%; "<br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 2px 5px;" |<font style = "color: #000000>'''About Me'''</font><br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: right;" |<font style="font-weight: bold; color: #000000;"></font><br />
|- valign="center"<br />
|align="center" colspan="2" |[[Image:shadowyfigure.JPG|400px|center]]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Name'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | '''ShadowyFigure''' <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''A/S/L/'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | 16 / Male / The Land of up your Narnia<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Occupation'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | Student <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Facts'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" |<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Interests'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Other Online Activities'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2"| <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Family'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Wiki Goals'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Contact'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | * email[mailto:onemanhorde@gmail.com]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''External Links'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 10px"|[http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/ShadowyFigure'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp; My Contributions&nbsp;</span>''']<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: center;" |[[User talk:ShadowyFigure|'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp;My Talk&nbsp;</span>''']]<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==User since 03/23/07==<br />
{|align=center<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==About Me==<br />
<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==About Me on the Wiki==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Wiki Information==<br />
*[[User:ShadowyFigure/My Stuff|My Stuff]], <br />
* '''Current Project:''' [[Age of War Campaign Guide (Age of War Supplement)]], [[Age of War Player's Guide (Age of War Supplement)]]<br />
* '''Campaign Settings:''' [[Age of War (4e Campaign Setting)]]<br />
* '''Adopted:''' <br />
* '''To Do:''' To Many Things.<br />
* '''Sandbox:''' [[User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox|Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox]], [[User:ShadowyFigure/Racial Templates Sandbox|Racial Templates]]<br />
* '''Random Page:''' <br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==Userpage==<br />
Please feel free to use this User Page template for your own page! THANKS HOOPER!)<br />
</div><br />
==To Do/Awards==<br />
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left"<br />
|-<br />
! width="50%" | '''The To Do list:''' !! Awards<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
'''Active Development'''<br />
<br />
;Things to add<br />
<br />
;Ideas (Things to Write)<br />
<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br><br />
<br />
[[Category:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dragon_Child&diff=367199User talk:Dragon Child2009-06-09T08:49:35Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Appologies */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Welcome to D&D Wiki! == <br />
<br />
;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to D&D Wiki. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everything relating to admins can be found [[Meta Pages#Administration|here]].<br />
;Questions:<br />
If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:19, 12 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Hello==<br />
Thanks for all the discussion on numerous pages. Great to see someone with ideas and concerns for balancing out alot of the Homebrew material. You'll find, however, that your concerns will be met with more consideration if given in a nicer tone. We're all friends here. Another great option is to form your version of how something should work, whether in a sandbox or by creating a variant page for it, and then showcasing it. Thanks. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 07:54, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Is this reference to the Giant (4e) race discussion? If so, I was TOO nice there. You'll notice when I'm actually critiquing stuff made by other people, I often give very detailed analysis of how I feel things should be worded/work, and can provide plenty of examples. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:52, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Seriously, he does, just read [[Talk:Time Walker, Variant (DnD Class)|this]]. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 17:58, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Hey Man ==<br />
<br />
Hey Half-Dragon, I've been reading your most recent posts on talk pages, and, well, you might wanna turn down the aggressivenessismity (CAPS LOCK, and 'who the hell cares' type statements), you know, just a thought. (and no, that is not a made up word) &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 14:43, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: CAPS LOCK is not aggressive. It is EMPHASIS. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 14:48, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Okay, then just 'who the hell cares' type statements. (Also, I'm only saying this because the density of such statements from you has been increasing lately, and that may give other people a bad impression of you) &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 15:19, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: But, who the hell cares? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 15:22, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Noted and agreed. With Rith, that is. I was going to excuse it and such (and IMO, this last guy was asking for it, and what he did was extremely bad) but I see your point clearly and will keep it in mind. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:25, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Hey, thanks for the help. ==<br />
<br />
I was looking at your suggestions for the Kirai Monk, and I admit, it was pretty underpowered. I was just concerned about overpowering the class. I applied your suggestions, and made it so Healer's Knowledge and Intuitive Attack only function when using an unarmed strike. Savvy?<br />
<br />
== Appologies ==<br />
<br />
Hi Dragon Child, I'd like to start out by apologising. I let myself get to angry at things on the internet sometimes, and really do owe you an apology for how I did not present my argument properly naw, did I pay proper attention to your own. Though I do not think I warranted an attack on my mathematical skills ( that really doesn't help with my current exams and all), I understand why you would have been frustrated with me. So I'm sorry.<br />
<br />
Just so I understand clearly.<br />
<br />
*Without a +2 to strength, you believe oversized could be balanced. Should this not be instead without an attack ability score of +2 (thinking swordmages here.) But that based on accuracy you believe the damage of oversized is not all that worth it.<br />
<br />
I think I could almost agree with you here, other then the fact oversized is actually an epic ability to. (See the ED Eternal Defender), and that along with the other things I have said, even without the +2 I still believe into be unbalanced. Look forward to see your future contributions to the wiki! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:44, 8 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:It's not the +2 strength, necessarily. Well, it is, but it's more then that. +2 charisma would also be unbalanced (see: paladin). So long as any stat bonuses to the race don't give out the class's primary stat to a melee weapon, it should be OK. There's actually a formula you can use very easily to see how much damage is gained.<br />
:Difference="H*X - D"<br />
:H is your hit chance, as a decimal percent (45% is 0.45). X is the amount of damage gained by oversized. D is the damage you would do normally without oversized. Most of my calculations showed that this Difference number was very low, and often not worth taking because you lose out on actually being able to hit and get special effects of powers off, which are important. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:27, 8 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::I see, well thank you, I will play with this formula a bit. ¬¬¬¬<br />
<br />
==Warcraft Races Help... 'Cause I sucks==<br />
So I was working on concept stuff for the Draenei; not as much for the Blood Elf because Arcane Torrent has me stumped (what am I going to do, take the Spellthief mechanic?). Anyway, here's what I've got. PLEASE HELP!!<br />
<br />
'''''Draenei:''' (things denoted as RMV are easily removable. Other stuff, like their abilities, should be edited but not removed so as to sustain the WoW-esque sense)''<br />
* -2 Dexterity RMV<br />
* +2 to Will and Fortitude saves: Draenei have good metabolism and possess an incredible mental dedication (probably one of the reasons that they are so dedicated to their religion) RMV<br />
* Naturally Psionic: Draenei have 2 power points. THese power points cannot be spent in any psionic ways without gaining psionic classes (will phrase correctly if publied) RMV<br />
* '''Heroic Presence (Su):''' Draenei constantly emit an aura that can ivigorate their comrades when they enter battle. The aura, with a range of 30 ft., gives a +1 moral bonus to ranged and melee attacks when the Draenei believes that he is in bomat. Multiple Heroic Presence auras do not stack. NOT RMV<br />
* '''Gift of the Naaru (Su):''' When a Draenai or a Draenai's comapnions take damage, he can spend power points to reduce the damage's severity. As am immediate action, he can reduce the damage by 1 hit point per 1 power point he spends. NOT RMV<br />
Draenei have a +2 to Craft (Gemcutting) NOT RMV, Knowledge (Religion) RMV, and Knowledge (Psionics) RMV: Draenei are skilled in the ways of gemstones and psionics, and are well-versed in their own religion, which, for some unknown reason, is still applicable in Oerth.<br />
* Favored Class: Something Psionic... (Psychic Warrior with the Potential Idea below, or maybe Psion. I really have no idea... should I make a class? I don't really want to.)<br />
''Potential Idea:'' by getting rid of a couple of the unecessary things, such as psionics (though I want one Warcraft race to be psionic... maybe Blood Elves?) or the save bonuses, I think it would be cool to add that Draenei can count as one category size larger for the wielding of weapons and shields (which I find kind of ironic -- the Draenei males being big enough to fit the task, and the females minute by comparison... so it might not work. But your opinion would be appreciated).<br />
<br />
'''''Blood Elf:''' (same thing with the RMV) And this is a really rough draft, so please forgive mistypings and whatnot. I'm not formatting until I've got the concept down.''<br />
* +2 Cha, +2 Int, -2 Con: Blood Elves are crafty and smooth talkers, but, like any Elf, feel the pain of a weaker body. NOT RMV -- but please edit.<br />
* At levels 5 , 10 and 15, a Blood Elves get 1 extra magic/psionic item creation feat RMV -- but something related would be nice (for the enchanting ability they have)<br />
* Spell-like abilities (Sp): 1/day – (Two level 1 or 0 spells) RMV<br />
* Arcane Torrent (Su): I can’t phrase it at all, but I’m planning for a 1 round, once-per-day kind of thing that negates all spells or magic auras (of moderate power or lower) used in that round. It can be activated as a swift or immediate action. The spells and aura effects negated, if a higher level than 0, give the Blood Elf 1 more charge per spell negated on her spell-liked abilities. NOT RMV<br />
* Favored Class: Wizard or Sorcerer... mebbe Bard. But something w/arcane spells.<br />
* +2 to all saves against magic RMV -- editing again, please??<br />
<br />
and maybe something else like making arcane torrent required to be used whenever the Blood Elf encounters an aura, but then again it would need more uses if I addded that. I thought about making the Blood Elf kind of psionic, but that doesn't seem like a good idea (even though their history is about looking for another kind of magic); they seem pretty arcane-ish to me.<br />
<br />
And that's my entire thought process!!--[[User:For Valor|For Valor]] 23:59, 8 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dragon_Child&diff=366939User talk:Dragon Child2009-06-08T18:44:50Z<p>ShadowyFigure: New section: Appologies</p>
<hr />
<div>== Welcome to D&D Wiki! == <br />
<br />
;Welcome!<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to D&D Wiki. I hope you have been enjoying this site, and I hope you have been finding the information here on D&D Wiki useful. I am an admin (and, actually, the owner as well) here on D&D Wiki along with a couple other people who make up "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Everything relating to admins can be found [[Meta Pages#Administration|here]].<br />
;Questions:<br />
If you have any question about D&D Wiki, D&D, formatting on D&D Wiki, what day today is, or whatever, an admin will, many times, give a good answer. Please feel free to ask any admin any question ([http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new ask me a question!]).<br />
;Formatting<br />
Formatting on D&D Wiki (or any wiki for that matter) can be very difficult, and if you need help a good place to start is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing Help:Editing] on Wikipedia (or even their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction Introduction] page). This will explain the basic wiki formatting and should provide quite a few useful links that explain more specific areas of wiki formatting. Again, if you have any questions about formatting on D&D Wiki please ask them as, I imagine, anybody will be more than happy to help you get them answered.<br />
;Community<br />
A strong and welcoming community exists on D&D Wiki, and I am sure you will find it rather nice. Most discussions take place on content talk pages, however please feel free to walk into [[Special:TheTavern|The Tavern]] (our local chat room) and talk to some fellow D&D Wikians. Anyway, on D&D Wiki, possibly since discussions are never deleted, people try to be nice. This means please follow Wikipedia's guidelines on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Civility] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette Etiquette] when discussing anything. Also, on a pretty different note, to ensure people know who posted what, please sign your name after a post with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) or by clicking on the signature icon. [[Image:Signature_icon.png]] This will automatically produce your name and the date. Anyway, I hope you come to love the close-knit D&D Wiki community and welcome again, you are now a D&D Wikian. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:19, 12 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Hello==<br />
Thanks for all the discussion on numerous pages. Great to see someone with ideas and concerns for balancing out alot of the Homebrew material. You'll find, however, that your concerns will be met with more consideration if given in a nicer tone. We're all friends here. Another great option is to form your version of how something should work, whether in a sandbox or by creating a variant page for it, and then showcasing it. Thanks. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 07:54, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Is this reference to the Giant (4e) race discussion? If so, I was TOO nice there. You'll notice when I'm actually critiquing stuff made by other people, I often give very detailed analysis of how I feel things should be worded/work, and can provide plenty of examples. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:52, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Seriously, he does, just read [[Talk:Time Walker, Variant (DnD Class)|this]]. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 17:58, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Hey Man ==<br />
<br />
Hey Half-Dragon, I've been reading your most recent posts on talk pages, and, well, you might wanna turn down the aggressivenessismity (CAPS LOCK, and 'who the hell cares' type statements), you know, just a thought. (and no, that is not a made up word) &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 14:43, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: CAPS LOCK is not aggressive. It is EMPHASIS. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 14:48, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Okay, then just 'who the hell cares' type statements. (Also, I'm only saying this because the density of such statements from you has been increasing lately, and that may give other people a bad impression of you) &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 15:19, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: But, who the hell cares? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 15:22, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Noted and agreed. With Rith, that is. I was going to excuse it and such (and IMO, this last guy was asking for it, and what he did was extremely bad) but I see your point clearly and will keep it in mind. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:25, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Hey, thanks for the help. ==<br />
<br />
I was looking at your suggestions for the Kirai Monk, and I admit, it was pretty underpowered. I was just concerned about overpowering the class. I applied your suggestions, and made it so Healer's Knowledge and Intuitive Attack only function when using an unarmed strike. Savvy?<br />
<br />
== Appologies ==<br />
<br />
Hi Dragon Child, I'd like to start out by apologising. I let myself get to angry at things on the internet sometimes, and really do owe you an apology for how I did not present my argument properly naw, did I pay proper attention to your own. Though I do not think I warranted an attack on my mathematical skills ( that really doesn't help with my current exams and all), I understand why you would have been frustrated with me. So I'm sorry.<br />
<br />
Just so I understand clearly.<br />
<br />
*Without a +2 to strength, you believe oversized could be balanced. Should this not be instead without an attack ability score of +2 (thinking swordmages here.) But that based on accuracy you believe the damage of oversized is not all that worth it.<br />
<br />
I think I could almost agree with you here, other then the fact oversized is actually an epic ability to. (See the ED Eternal Defender), and that along with the other things I have said, even without the +2 I still believe into be unbalanced. Look forward to see your future contributions to the wiki! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:44, 8 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Feats&diff=366905Talk:4e Feats2009-06-08T15:36:59Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Add my stuff */</p>
<hr />
<div>== In the Mood to Simplify ==<br />
<br />
The vast majority of the subpages are empty. Anyone object to a mass deletion? —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 20:21, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Not at all. I would actually prefer that, while it's still empty, we find a good dynamic way to organize the feats. I just think the current method is just not simple enough for the average user to understand fully. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:06, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Add my stuff ==<br />
<br />
Would someone please add [[User:Aboleth11|my feats]] to the feat page. (And give the Aberrant Bloodline feats their own category). --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 08:19, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Do it yourself? [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:50, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::How? --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 12:35, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: For new categories, <nowiki>[[Category:Name of Category]]</nowiki>, For Heroic Tier Feats <nowiki>[[Category:Heroic Feat</nowiki> with Paragon and Epic as normal. All 4e material should have <nowiki>[[Category:4e]]</nowiki> Hope that helps! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:07, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::I've got the category page but I can't figure out how to get it on the feats page. Would you help me out? You can get to it through [[Aberrant Heritage (4e Feat)|Aberrant Heritage]] for some reason it won't let me link straight to the category page. --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 09:30, 8 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Your feat is on the feats page, click character options > feats > heroic feats > abberant heritage is the first one.[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:36, 8 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Feats&diff=366653Talk:4e Feats2009-06-07T19:07:39Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Add my stuff */</p>
<hr />
<div>== In the Mood to Simplify ==<br />
<br />
The vast majority of the subpages are empty. Anyone object to a mass deletion? —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 20:21, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Not at all. I would actually prefer that, while it's still empty, we find a good dynamic way to organize the feats. I just think the current method is just not simple enough for the average user to understand fully. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:06, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Add my stuff ==<br />
<br />
Would someone please add [[User:Aboleth11|my feats]] to the feat page. (And give the Aberrant Bloodline feats their own category). --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 08:19, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Do it yourself? [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:50, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::How? --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 12:35, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: For new categories, <nowiki>[[Category:Name of Category]]</nowiki>, For Heroic Tier Feats <nowiki>[[Category:Heroic Feat</nowiki> with Paragon and Epic as normal. All 4e material should have <nowiki>[[Category:4e]]</nowiki> Hope that helps! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:07, 7 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Feats&diff=366619Talk:4e Feats2009-06-07T17:50:28Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== In the Mood to Simplify ==<br />
<br />
The vast majority of the subpages are empty. Anyone object to a mass deletion? —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 20:21, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Not at all. I would actually prefer that, while it's still empty, we find a good dynamic way to organize the feats. I just think the current method is just not simple enough for the average user to understand fully. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:06, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Add my stuff ==<br />
<br />
Would someone please add [[User:Aboleth11|my feats]] to the feat page. (And give the Aberrant Bloodline feats their own category). --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 08:19, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Do it yourself? [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:50, 7 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox&diff=366606User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox2009-06-07T16:41:14Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Human Adventurers */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Human, Variant ==<br />
'''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=5'6" - 6'2"<br />
|weight=135lb - 220lb<br />
|abilities= +2 to any one ability score.<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision= Normal<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], and one other.<br />
|skills=+2 to any two choices.<br />
|trait1=Bonus Feat<br />
|description1=You gain a bonus feat at 1st level. <br />
|trait2= Bonus At-Will Power<br />
|description2=You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class. <br />
|trait3=Human Instinct<br />
|description3=You gain a +2 racial bonus to [[4e Index (4e Other)#Fortitude defense|Fortitude]], [[4e Index (4e Other)#Reflex defense|Reflex]] or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Will defense|Will]] defense.<br />
|trait4=Human Adaption<br />
|description4=You can choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
=== Physical Qualities ===<br />
<br />
=== Playing a Human ===<br />
<br />
=== Human Adventurers ===<br />
<br />
'''Human Characteristics:'''<br><br />
'''Human Names:'''<br><br />
'''Human Adventurers'''<br><br />
<br />
== Infernal Heritage ==<br />
<br />
===Infernal Heritage [Bloodline Feat]===<br />
<br />
''Infernal powers run through your veins...''<br />
<br />
'''Tier:''' Heroic <br />
<br />
'''Prerequisite:''' [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Int]] 13, or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Cha]] 13<br />
<br />
'''Benefit:''' You gain ''Infernal Wrath'' as an encounter power, I'n additon you gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks made against Devils.<br />
<br />
'''Special:''' You are considered a Devil for the purpose of effects that relate to Devils.</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox&diff=366605User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox2009-06-07T16:40:53Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Human, Variant ==<br />
'''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=5'6" - 6'2"<br />
|weight=135lb - 220lb<br />
|abilities= +2 to any one ability score.<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision= Normal<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], and one other.<br />
|skills=+2 to any two choices.<br />
|trait1=Bonus Feat<br />
|description1=You gain a bonus feat at 1st level. <br />
|trait2= Bonus At-Will Power<br />
|description2=You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class. <br />
|trait3=Human Instinct<br />
|description3=You gain a +2 racial bonus to [[4e Index (4e Other)#Fortitude defense|Fortitude]], [[4e Index (4e Other)#Reflex defense|Reflex]] or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Will defense|Will]] defense.<br />
|trait4=Human Adaption<br />
|description4=You can choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
=== Physical Qualities ===<br />
<br />
=== Playing a Human ===<br />
<br />
=== Human Adventurers ===<br />
<br />
'''Human Characteristics:''' <br />
'''Human Names:''' <br />
'''Human Adventurers'''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Infernal Heritage ==<br />
<br />
===Infernal Heritage [Bloodline Feat]===<br />
<br />
''Infernal powers run through your veins...''<br />
<br />
'''Tier:''' Heroic <br />
<br />
'''Prerequisite:''' [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Int]] 13, or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Cha]] 13<br />
<br />
'''Benefit:''' You gain ''Infernal Wrath'' as an encounter power, I'n additon you gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks made against Devils.<br />
<br />
'''Special:''' You are considered a Devil for the purpose of effects that relate to Devils.</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aberrant_Heritage_(4e_Feat)&diff=366295Talk:Aberrant Heritage (4e Feat)2009-06-06T09:35:53Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Help ==<br />
<br />
What am I doing wrong? Is there something wrong with the template? --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 09:47, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:fixed, it said |type=Standard Action, where it should have been |actiontype=Standard Action. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:19, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::Thanks. Why won't the attack and damage show up? --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 10:45, 5 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::The |type= Attack was missing. This is why its always useful to keep parts of them template your not using, just in case of mistakes. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:48, 5 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::Thanks again. BTW, how do you make a list with bullets. --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 15:22, 5 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::: Using the this * allows you to make a bullet list, put each * on a individual line.<br />
<br />
*Like<br />
*This<br />
*You See<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 03:35, 6 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aberrant_Heritage_(4e_Feat)&diff=366053Talk:Aberrant Heritage (4e Feat)2009-06-05T19:48:40Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Help ==<br />
<br />
What am I doing wrong? Is there something wrong with the template? --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 09:47, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:fixed, it said |type=Standard Action, where it should have been |actiontype=Standard Action. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:19, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::Thanks. Why won't the attack and damage show up? --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 10:45, 5 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::The |type= Attack was missing. This is why its always useful to keep parts of them template your not using, just in case of mistakes. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:48, 5 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aberrant_Heritage_(4e_Feat)&diff=366051Aberrant Heritage (4e Feat)2009-06-05T19:47:55Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{author<br />
|author_name=Aboleth11<br />
|date_created=06/02/2009<br />
|status=Incomplete<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{x0<br />
|nbofbalance= -<br />
|prereq=<br />
|desc= }}<br />
===Abberant Heritage [Abberant Bloodline]===<br />
<br />
<!-- Brief description of feat. -->.<br />
<br />
'''Tier:''' Heroic<br />
<br />
'''Prerequisite:''' Living humanoid race<br />
<br />
'''Benefit:''' Chose one of the following.<br />
:+4 bonus to acrobatics checks.<br />
<br />
:You gain a tentacle attack:<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Tentacle<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|usage=At-Will<br />
|owner=Feat<br />
|class=<br />
|flavor=You smash your foe with your tentacle.<br />
|keyword1=<br />
|range=Melee<br />
|rangemod=<br />
|target=One creature<br />
|attack=Strength or Dexterity<br />
|defense=AC<br />
|hit=1d8 + Strength or Dexterity modifier damage<br />
|effect=The target is grabbed (until escape).<br />
|special=When you choose this benefit you choose either Strength or Dexterity to attack with this power. Once you make that choice you can't change it later.<br />
:This power counts as a melee basic attack. When a power allows to make a melee basic attack, you can use this power.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
---- <!-- insert pages that link to this feat here --><br />
Back to [[Main Page]] &rarr; [[4e Homebrew|4e Homebrew]] &rarr; [[4e Character Options|Character Options]] &rarr; [[4e Feats|Feats]] &rarr; [[4e <!-- subcategory --> Feats|<!-- subcategory --> Feats]].<br />
<!-- Remove this line to add your feat to categories <br />
[[Category:4e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Heroic Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Paragon Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Epic Feat]]<br />
[[Category:General Feat]]<br />
--></div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aasimar_(4e_Race)&diff=365908Talk:Aasimar (4e Race)2009-06-05T10:49:50Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Time to Reconstruct... */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because the power is a waste of the healing surge, a normal healing surge is 1/4 of the characters max HP, even if you a wizard at level 1 with a 10-con (making your hp 20) your healing surge is just one point less to the best roll available for the Aasimar. In the past the Aasimar was generally a similar opposite to the Tiefling. Keep the power base off of healing surges but with a little of the Aasimar's Charisma involved. Also since Tiefling aren't considered devils Aasimar shouldn't be counted as angels.<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a N/A out of 5 because I'm not a master of word choices or grammar.<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 <br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because well Tiefling. I feel that when this was being written the writer didn't realy take into mind that angels now can be of any alignment, so you can't count toward the normal belief curse angels will be good, for all we know the ancestors were like the devil and curse by only the good gods for some strange reason . What I would do to make the matters sound good they are a chosen people of a once powerful good god or group of good immortals from the Astral Sea who sacrificed them selves to either protect or unify of hurt people. <br />
One last thing, (and yes it involves Teiflings again) the Aasimar should have a large amount of mutation, more than just being pretty, like there infernal pact counter parts.<br />
<br />
Signed,<br />
Barished<br />
<br />
: '''Power:''' Ok, this has been changed to a more useful power. <br><br />
: '''Wording:''' No comment <br><br />
: '''Flavor:''' Read the race before commenting. The difference between the Tieflings and my Aasimar. Aasimar are angels. Tieflings formed pacts with devils. Not jsut this but how do you know that the race of angels they were actually had evil members? Did you think of that?<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:03, 1 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Featured Article ==<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; I feel this article is too short to be a featured article, I mean a lot of 3e race are a lot more extensive. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 14:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:3e races actually had a lot more in them. With there being more sections to fill more information actually to be put in. In 4e the information still gives you what you need to no but is less focused as in 3e. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 15:40, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Still, you should add a lore section maybe. As I feel featured article shouldn't be judged on the category of the article but on the overall standard of all article. It doesn't make sense if someone get featured article in one categories because the standard are shorter while another must work twice as much. This isn't a featured 4e race but a featured article of the wiki, so it should be compared to all articles, even the more extensive class and 3.5e race. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 15:48, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Thats like fairly deciding the best of two art styles. Its impossible. Different systems, style work in different ways. Until a set format is up however I will wait. When that is up I will revise the article adding more depth and re-formatting where necessary. {{Unsigned|79.68.179.100|16:29, 4 July 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
::::If you go by the amount of information in the article, then feats couldn't become featured, which is not really fair. I think you should judge the quality of the writing rather than the quantity. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:20, 5 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Sure of course, still I feel this article can be expanded a bit, the overall quality is excellent , this article is as long as a 4e race should be, so to be a featured article it should be a bit longer. By taking a look on other featured article such as your spider rider or noname Cassia, we see a lot of information (particularly in the later). You may keep this article like it is, but extra never hurt.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 10:48, 5 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I completely agree &mdash; let's go above and beyond the core books for featured articles. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:06, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Update: Added an extra Communities section to the article. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 05:59, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::Good continue your good work!--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 12:49, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; This needs to link to the [[4e Index (4e Other)|4e index]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:17, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:how do you mean? [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 05:59, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::For example "Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Intimidate " would be changed to "<nowiki>Skill Bonuses: +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Diplomacy skill|Diplomacy]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Intimidate skill|Intimidate]]</nowiki>" which would look like "Skill Bonuses: +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Diplomacy skill|Diplomacy]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Intimidate skill|Intimidate]]". Hope this helps. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 17:00, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::You just need to put "<nowiki>{{I}}Diplomacy skill|Diplomacy]]</nowiki>" and so on. The "<nowiki>{{I}}</nowiki>" replaces the "<nowiki>[[4e Index (4e Other)#</nowiki>" (it is a template). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 05:46, 13 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ah ha, nice. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 14:48, 12 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; The wording on many of the flavor areas, such as the "Communities" section in particular, have bad/confusing wording. I feel that they should be double-checked for sentence structure as well as sentence flow. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:57, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I changed [[Aasimar (4e Race)#Physical Qualities|Physical Qualities]] [http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aasimar_(4e_Race)&diff=363942&oldid=328677] a bit. If you would not mind let me know what you think. Also, if you want this article to become a FA, I think the other sections should be checked confusing or possibly convoluted wording. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:26, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Age of War ==<br />
<br />
Possible race for future Age of War suplement, will probabaly be more defined hwoebver and less like the Assasimar of the pass (or the Deva present in PHB 2 for that matter.) [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 06:23, 14 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:What's Age of War? [[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 16:04, 24 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: A campaign setting on the wiki by myself and Sam Kay (Sam Kay is a legend around here). [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 03:23, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Am I? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:50, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::: You're not. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 05:19, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::: I disagree :P NAw hes nto a legend, but he is however the most feature author I believe. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 07:56, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Aasimar/Deva ==<br />
<br />
Wasn't the whole point of deva to replace Aasimar? [[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 15:41, 24 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:This race4 was amde before the release of the PHB 2 [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 17:15, 24 May 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aasimar_(4e_Race)&diff=365907Talk:Aasimar (4e Race)2009-06-05T10:48:19Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because the power is a waste of the healing surge, a normal healing surge is 1/4 of the characters max HP, even if you a wizard at level 1 with a 10-con (making your hp 20) your healing surge is just one point less to the best roll available for the Aasimar. In the past the Aasimar was generally a similar opposite to the Tiefling. Keep the power base off of healing surges but with a little of the Aasimar's Charisma involved. Also since Tiefling aren't considered devils Aasimar shouldn't be counted as angels.<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a N/A out of 5 because I'm not a master of word choices or grammar.<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 <br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because well Tiefling. I feel that when this was being written the writer didn't realy take into mind that angels now can be of any alignment, so you can't count toward the normal belief curse angels will be good, for all we know the ancestors were like the devil and curse by only the good gods for some strange reason . What I would do to make the matters sound good they are a chosen people of a once powerful good god or group of good immortals from the Astral Sea who sacrificed them selves to either protect or unify of hurt people. <br />
One last thing, (and yes it involves Teiflings again) the Aasimar should have a large amount of mutation, more than just being pretty, like there infernal pact counter parts.<br />
<br />
Signed,<br />
Barished<br />
<br />
: '''Power:''' Ok, this has been changed to a more useful power. <br><br />
: '''Wording:''' No comment <br><br />
: '''Flavor:''' Read the race before commenting. The difference between the Tieflings and my Aasimar. Aasimar are angels. Tieflings formed pacts with devils. Not jsut this but how do you know that the race of angels they were actually had evil members? Did you think of that?<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:03, 1 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Featured Article ==<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; I feel this article is too short to be a featured article, I mean a lot of 3e race are a lot more extensive. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 14:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:3e races actually had a lot more in them. With there being more sections to fill more information actually to be put in. In 4e the information still gives you what you need to no but is less focused as in 3e. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 15:40, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Still, you should add a lore section maybe. As I feel featured article shouldn't be judged on the category of the article but on the overall standard of all article. It doesn't make sense if someone get featured article in one categories because the standard are shorter while another must work twice as much. This isn't a featured 4e race but a featured article of the wiki, so it should be compared to all articles, even the more extensive class and 3.5e race. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 15:48, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Thats like fairly deciding the best of two art styles. Its impossible. Different systems, style work in different ways. Until a set format is up however I will wait. When that is up I will revise the article adding more depth and re-formatting where necessary. {{Unsigned|79.68.179.100|16:29, 4 July 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
::::If you go by the amount of information in the article, then feats couldn't become featured, which is not really fair. I think you should judge the quality of the writing rather than the quantity. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:20, 5 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Sure of course, still I feel this article can be expanded a bit, the overall quality is excellent , this article is as long as a 4e race should be, so to be a featured article it should be a bit longer. By taking a look on other featured article such as your spider rider or noname Cassia, we see a lot of information (particularly in the later). You may keep this article like it is, but extra never hurt.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 10:48, 5 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I completely agree &mdash; let's go above and beyond the core books for featured articles. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:06, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::Update: Added an extra Communities section to the article. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 05:59, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::Good continue your good work!--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 12:49, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; This needs to link to the [[4e Index (4e Other)|4e index]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:17, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:how do you mean? [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 05:59, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::For example "Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Intimidate " would be changed to "<nowiki>Skill Bonuses: +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Diplomacy skill|Diplomacy]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Intimidate skill|Intimidate]]</nowiki>" which would look like "Skill Bonuses: +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Diplomacy skill|Diplomacy]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Intimidate skill|Intimidate]]". Hope this helps. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 17:00, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::You just need to put "<nowiki>{{I}}Diplomacy skill|Diplomacy]]</nowiki>" and so on. The "<nowiki>{{I}}</nowiki>" replaces the "<nowiki>[[4e Index (4e Other)#</nowiki>" (it is a template). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 05:46, 13 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Ah ha, nice. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 14:48, 12 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; The wording on many of the flavor areas, such as the "Communities" section in particular, have bad/confusing wording. I feel that they should be double-checked for sentence structure as well as sentence flow. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:57, 7 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I changed [[Aasimar (4e Race)#Physical Qualities|Physical Qualities]] [http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aasimar_(4e_Race)&diff=363942&oldid=328677] a bit. If you would not mind let me know what you think. Also, if you want this article to become a FA, I think the other sections should be checked confusing or possibly convoluted wording. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:26, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Age of War ==<br />
<br />
Possible race for future Age of War suplement, will probabaly be more defined hwoebver and less like the Assasimar of the pass (or the Deva present in PHB 2 for that matter.) [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 06:23, 14 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:What's Age of War? [[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 16:04, 24 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: A campaign setting on the wiki by myself and Sam Kay (Sam Kay is a legend around here). [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 03:23, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Am I? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:50, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::: You're not. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 05:19, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::: I disagree :P NAw hes nto a legend, but he is however the most feature author I believe. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 07:56, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Aasimar/Deva ==<br />
<br />
Wasn't the whole point of deva to replace Aasimar? [[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 15:41, 24 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:This race4 was amde before the release of the PHB 2 [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 17:15, 24 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Time to Reconstruct... ==<br />
<br />
I've desicded to start a quest. The Aasimar WILL be a featured article. I'm going to work as ahrd as I can with some of the spare time among other project I have to get it up to snuff. So far the problems are.<br />
<br />
* Confusing Wording.<br />
* Racial Power Needs Work.<br />
<br />
After I've got these done everything should be a'ok. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 04:48, 5 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox&diff=365904User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox2009-06-05T10:41:12Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Human, Variant ==<br />
'''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=5'6" - 6'2"<br />
|weight=135lb - 220lb<br />
|abilities= +2 to any one ability score.<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision= Normal<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], and one other.<br />
|skills=+2 to any two choices.<br />
|trait1=Bonus Feat<br />
|description1=You gain a bonus feat at 1st level. <br />
|trait2= Bonus At-Will Power<br />
|description2=You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class. <br />
|trait3=Human Instinct<br />
|description3=You gain a +2 racial bonus to [[4e Index (4e Other)#Fortitude defense|Fortitude]], [[4e Index (4e Other)#Reflex defense|Reflex]] or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Will defense|Will]] defense.<br />
|trait4=Human Adaption<br />
|description4=You can choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
== Infernal Heritage ==<br />
<br />
===Infernal Heritage [Bloodline Feat]===<br />
<br />
''Infernal powers run through your veins...''<br />
<br />
'''Tier:''' Heroic <br />
<br />
'''Prerequisite:''' [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Int]] 13, or [[4e Index (4e Other)#Abbility Scores|Cha]] 13<br />
<br />
'''Benefit:''' You gain ''Infernal Wrath'' as an encounter power, I'n additon you gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks made against Devils.<br />
<br />
'''Special:''' You are considered a Devil for the purpose of effects that relate to Devils.</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox&diff=365903User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox2009-06-05T10:27:41Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Human, Variant ==<br />
'''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=5'6" - 6'2"<br />
|weight=135lb - 220lb<br />
|abilities= +2 to any one ability score.<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision= Normal<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], and one other.<br />
|skills=+2 to any two choices.<br />
|trait1=Bonus Feat<br />
|description1=You gain a bonus feat at 1st level. <br />
|trait2= Bonus At-Will Power<br />
|description2=You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class. <br />
|trait3=Human Instinct<br />
|description3=You gain a +2 racial bonus to Fortitude, Reflex or Will Defence.<br />
|trait4=Human Adaption<br />
|description4=You can choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
== Infernal Heritage ==</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Orc,_Variant_(4e_Racial_Trait_Variant)&diff=365721Orc, Variant (4e Racial Trait Variant)2009-06-04T19:09:30Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{delete|24 May 2009|Author has abandoned entry, Article has not been playtested or balanced.}}<br />
{{stub|Needs more "fluff", and Racial Power cleaned up.}}<br />
{{Author<br />
|author_name=ShadowyFigure<br />
|date_created=<br />
|status= Incomplete <br />
|editing= Constructive Edits.<br />
}}<br />
==Orc==<br />
<br />
'''''The plague of the civilized races, and the world.'''''<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=6'0" - 6'5"<br />
|weight=200 – 230 lb<br />
|abilities=+2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability Scores|Strength]], +2 [[4e Index (4e Other)#Ability Scores|Constitution]]<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision=Low-Light<br />
|languages=Common, Giant<br />
|trait1=Running Charge<br />
|description1= When you charge, add 2 to your speed.<br />
|trait2=Warrior’s Surge<br />
|description2=You can use warrior’s surge as an encounter power<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Warrior's Surge<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Orc<br />
|type=Racial<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=You charge with unstoppable ferocity unhampered by terrain or foe.<br />
|keyword1=Healing<br />
|keyword2=Weapon<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|trigger=<!-- The trigger for the power. --><br />
|range=<!-- Ranged, Close Burst, Melee, etc. --><br />
|rangemod=<!-- The range in squares this attack has. --><br />
|prerequisite=<!-- Prerequisites to use this attack. --><br />
|requirement=<!-- Requirements to use this attack. --><br />
|target=<!-- Primary target for the power. --><br />
|attack=Strength vs AC<!-- Attack stat against the primary target. --><br />
|defense=<!-- Defense stat for the primary target. --><br />
|attackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|hit=1[w] + Strength modifier damage, and you can spend a healing surge.<!-- What to do when the primary attack hits. --><br />
increase to 2[w] + Strength modifier damage at 21st level.<br />
|miss=<!-- What to do when the primary attack misses. --><br />
|secondarytarget=<!-- Secondary target for the power. --><br />
|secondaryattack=<!-- Attack stat against the secondary target. --><br />
|secondaryattackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|secondarydefense=<!-- Defense stat for the secondary target. --><br />
|secondaryhit=<!-- What to do when the secondary attack hits. --><br />
|secondarymiss=<!-- What to do when the secondary attack misses. --><br />
|tertiarytarget=<!-- Tertiary target for the power. --><br />
|tertiaryattack=<!-- Attack stat against the tertiary target. --><br />
|tertiaryattackextra=<!-- Anything to add after "attack vs. defense" --><br />
|tertiarydefense=<!-- Defense stat for the tertiary target. --><br />
|tertiaryhit=<!-- What to do when the tertiary attack hits. --><br />
|tertiarymiss=<!-- What to do when the tertiary attack misses. --><br />
|effect=Make a charge. For this charge only, you ignore difficult terrain and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.<br />
|extra=<!-- Any extra text you want to add. --><br />
|sustain=<!-- How the power is sustained. --><br />
|special=<!-- Special text. --><br />
}}<br />
<br />
Most Orc tribes worship Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of slaughter, they are a savage race, bloodthirsty, and violent. Known to roam the land ripping apart civilizations, and hunting the land. The Orcs can be so violent they fight amongst themselves. The Orcs love close combat, the taste and feel that a battle provides. Most orcs act so aggressively and follow their leaders into battle, following the strongest and most powerful in their tribe. Orcs rarely retreat or surrender, rather dieing in battle. as you can see in orc society people hold different rolls, their is a class system. Those who were born from the great are often trained to become the new leaders, those who are born from peons are made to be peons, though a peon who shows themselves in battle overcome the powerful system and can become new leaders. Orc Chiefs are usually decided based on strength and battle standards, Fighting to decide who is the most powerful. When an orc defeats a powerful enemy they will take a tooth or bone from the opponent and place it on their battle clothing. Orcs were created from Grummsh the one-eyed god who asks his followers to multiply, raid, kill, and concur. The Orc are a race similar to that of the hobgoblin, However they actually fight alongside, and have more similarities to a Giant. Gruumsh created the orcs in his image and they were placed on all parts of the world, often to thank Gruumsh a high powered orc will remove one of his eyes as a tribute to the one-eyed god of slaughter. Orcs usually follow the strongest leader around them, meaning if you prove yourself to an orc he might decide to follow you around until the day comes before he can defeat that person in a fair fight. Most Ogres are surprisingly honorable, when it comes to defeating an enemy, They work off an ideology that every person they kill gives them strength and some tribes even consume enemies, or sacrifice them to Gruumsh. If you don't defeat an enemy well they are at their full power you don't gain as much strength/honor from defeating that opponent. <br />
<br />
<!-- Fierce creatures created purely for one thing and that is war, making up the bulk of many human armies Orcs are fast, tough, brutal and considered expendable. Those that have escaped the slavery of their race was born into have managed with time to create tribes and fight amongst one another for they have little purpose but to fight, but a few of such people escape this life style and try to travel whether to spread such suffering across the world or to help others escape it. --><br />
<br />
Play an Orc if you want...<br />
* A tough brutal and intimidating hero who is feared by many.<br />
* To be an Honorable, misunderstood creature.<br />
* To be a member of a race that favors the Fighter, Warlord and Barbarian class. <br />
<br />
===Physical Qualities===<br />
<br />
Orcs are tall, broad and muscular lacking all of the grace and subtlety of the elves(who their race rivals) <!--from which they originated-->. Taller than humans and lacking the range of complexions that they hold Orc skin ranges from grey hue to a dark green filth like color. Male slave Orcs are shaven with no hair on their head while females are often not sent into battle and so there hair is normally long and unkempt. <br><br />
<br />
Orcs that originate from tribes tend to have tattoos covering their chests and backs with axes, skulls and Orc symbols being very common, a Orc will normally receive or place these on his own body when he has proven himself in defeating a powerful opponent <!--stronger and superior to another being,--> The more of these a tribal orc has on their body the more powerful they are likely to be.<!-- As young male adolescents receiving theirs after raiding villages in the wastes or slaying a fellow they have challenged in mortal combat.--><br><br />
<br />
Due to the manner in which the Orcs were created, and shown by how their diety leads them, Orc can<!-- lost the famous long age of the elves,--> live for as long as a Human in most cases, children are expected to toughen up quickly handling weapons as early as 8 years old when a Orc is normally as tall as a adolescent human of their gender, Though the orc race due to its violent ways doesn't result in them living to their highest life expectancy, as well as the unhealthy way they often live. Those in the armies tend to grow up with similar swiftness though they are considered battle ready by the age ten. <!--with many of the Human run slaving camps using alchemical means to make growth more rapid taking around six or seven months to raise an Orc to be strong and tough enough to fight in battle.--><br />
<br />
===Playing an Orc===<br />
<br />
Full Blooded Orc heros are not too common, their are a large number of orcs however they rarely leave their tribe outside of marriage, or being forcibly removed due to defeat, and shame. Most orcs are murderous marauders who ake for the thrill of battle, and are very selfish looters. However their are a few groups of orcs that well crude, violent and barbaric, some have experienced the luxuries of a civilization over their tents and movable huts. Usually they have a low intelligence and act quickly without thinking, they act on their baser instinct however have too much pride to be ashamed of past action.<br />
<br />
Orc often come from tribes having gone off to start their own, or challenging the leader for power and loosing. Some orcs have seen the luxuries that cities have, and choose to live in them, Other orcs seen in towns might be mercenaries, hired to kill as part of an army, or as an assassin, though Orc assassins are in no way stealthy, or hide the fact that they are one. Orcs enjoy being hired to kill because it merges their love of the fight for their love of material things.<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Orc Characteristics:''' Brash, ferocious, hedonistic, impulsive, short-tempered, tough, uninhibited, Honorable<br />
<br />
'''Male Names:''' Brug, Dorn, Druuk, Gnarsh, Grumbar, Hogar, Karash, Korgul, Krusk, Lubash, Mord, Ohr, Rendar, Sark, Scrag, Tanglar, Tarak, Thar, Ugarth, Yurk<br />
<br />
'''Female Names:''' Augh, Bree, Ekk, Gaaki, Grai, Grigri, Gynk, Huru, Lagazi, Murook, Nogu, Ootah, Puyet, Tawar, Tomph, Ubada, Vanchu<br />
<br />
===Orc Adventurers===<br />
Three samples of an Orc Adventurer are described below.<br />
<!--Adventurers of your race--><br />
Krusk, a male orc fighter who lived his life in a tribe of fellow orcs, however as he began to come of age he was never quiet strong enough to be a part of the raids and was often left back with the tribeswoman, one day as your tribe was out on a hunt your tribe was attacked by an army, You managed to fight your best however everyone in the tribe was slaughtered. For some reason you managed to survive this onslaught and only a few of your tribesmen returned from the raid. Disgusted with you your orc brothers told you to get lost or die, overcome with anger they began to beat you to a pulp before ignoring you to look for any others who could have been alive. During this time you managed to grab a few weapons and leave for a city where you sold the extra weapons for a place to stay, aking for revenge against those who killed your tribe, and wanting to prove yourself to your kin.<br />
<br />
Ekk, a female orc Warden always tried her best to fight in the battles, training with the boys, however she was always left back during the raid because of her gender. Growing up she became able to fight along the men, and do labor with the women. Knowing that she could never fight as she wanted Ekk left the village and headed out to defeat as many opponents as she could, collecting ornaments of their death to return to her tribe in display of their power.<br />
<br />
Hogar, a male orc barbarian living with his tribe had a fowl temper even among orcs, starting fights with everything he could throwing punches at anyone he could. One day during his training and beating up of other orcs the Chieftain gripped his arm and told him to cool down or the others wouldn't be able to trust him in battle. The Orc was so overwhelmed with violent thoughts and did not wish to be seen as anything but an Alpha male, he attacked the Orc Chief stating that the tribe must be lead by the strongest, and in this act lost. After Hogar was removed from the tribe his temper cooled slightly, Hogar seeks violence in every manner, more than anything else he wishes to be enthralled in the thrill of battle.<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{4e Races Breadcrumb}} &rarr; [[4e User Races|User Races]]<br />
<br />
[[Category:4e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Race]]<br />
[[Category:Fey]]<br />
[[Category:Humanoid Type]]<br />
[[Category:Project Chaos]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Spider_Rider_(4e_Class)&diff=365687Talk:Spider Rider (4e Class)2009-06-04T16:23:41Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Beastmaster? */</p>
<hr />
<div>==This really should be a Paragon Path==<br />
<br />
My main beef with this as a base class is the same as 3e druid at level 1: the player effectively gets 2 moves a round. This has a big problem in terms of game balance. Secondly, serving Lolth/Arachne doesn't fit with the point of base classes (generality and options), it's just too specific, and dare I say it, ''too'' flavoursome. Shrink is probably too powerful. You can use it as the ultimate scout. 1-2 step is better.<br />
Aside: I saw ''Ghost in the Shell 2nd GiG'' the other day, and the class reminds me of the ''tachikoma'' a lot. I do like the flavour but not the mechanics. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 21:34, 4 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:First thing; this was a pre-emtive attempt at class design (the riding rules actually prevent you from making two moves a turn, and I'm re-writing it anyway), and secondly, I don't want it to be a paragon path because of the 10 level wait, and because the way paragon paths work it woudn't really work... The class is basically designed as a base class for people who want strong theme to their character rather than a generical thing like the fighter. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:59, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::And antother thing: mounted combat has changed loads in 4e. Now the rider and his mount share actions between them rather than having a turn each. So your "main beef" is no problem at all! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:44, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Druids don't have mounted combat at level 1 (unless you're small), so I don't know where you're getting that impression from. A level 1 druid has an animal companion which takes orders (i.e. tricks). Same here. No rules say you ''must'' ride in combat, so you can bark orders to the spider (and the spider understands!) and get two moves. Even if they move on the same initiative, that's still big. Haven't checked the familiars section. I would expect the rules would be same in that sense. <br />
:::On another note, you said it wouldn't work as PP. Please explain? --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 19:51, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::PPs are too small to fit in everything I would like to. PPs can only be taken at 11th level, so if you wanted to be a spider rider you'd have to wait 10 levels, PPs are only supposed to be a tiny part of your character's identity, there is currently no class I can see taking a spider rider PP. I can't really do themed powers the way I'd like to. You would not be able to play a 1st level spider rider. The list goes on. I like PPs, but I'd rather have this as a class.<br />
::::I've sorted the two rounds thing; firstly all but the at-will rider powers are based around the riding consept, and so now you simply cannot use them unless mounted (it makes some sense; how do you do a mounted overrun on foot?). So if you want to use you powers (and adequacy in 4e relys on powers), you need to be mounted. Problem sorted!<br />
::::Druids don't actually exist in 4e yet, and neither do familliars.--[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:56, 6 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did an excellent job of making something potentially overpowered very well balanced. However, i think this class is a bit overpowered because of the rider/mound versatility and potential loopholes from this versatility (for example, being able to see through your mounds eyes at all times could get abused) --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording is both complete and fluent --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is standard and complete --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because i cant give it a six --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
This is a very well made and from what i can tell complete class. My only suggestion would be add some variation to the spider riders attack powers, they all seem similar with small differences, especially at level 1. --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Beastmaster? ==<br />
<br />
This looks very similar to the Beast Companion class feature in Martial Power. Maybe the spider rider's mount could follow the same rules, instead of having to finagle new ones? --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 15:59, 31 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:It was descided way before the Ranger Beast Companion Rules, how the spider rider would work (I know this as I talked to Sam Kay quite a bit about the ranger rules and how his spider rider differs). As with the summon rules in this sourcebook work different so do the spider rider's mounts. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:23, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<this powerful class is very well balanced.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is good and fluent.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' 5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is amazing.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Lances==<br />
Given that this is a mounted class, shouldn't they really start with lance proficiency?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 13:22, 31 May 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:It was supposed to. There wasn't a set of rules for lances, so it got longspear prof instead. I have made rules for lances, I just forgot to make the change. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:28, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Ok, thanks =D Also, what about spidersilk armor?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 21:36, 03 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:: Look [[Equipment (Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind Chapter)|here.]] [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 00:47, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::: I know where it is. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in my meaning, but what I meant was "why don't spider riders have spidersilk armor proficiency?"--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 16:24, 04 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
:::: As Spider Silk is better then hide in every way, other then gp cost, I think it's worth a proficiency feat.[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:21, 4 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Spider_Rider_(4e_Class)&diff=365686Talk:Spider Rider (4e Class)2009-06-04T16:22:27Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Lances */</p>
<hr />
<div>==This really should be a Paragon Path==<br />
<br />
My main beef with this as a base class is the same as 3e druid at level 1: the player effectively gets 2 moves a round. This has a big problem in terms of game balance. Secondly, serving Lolth/Arachne doesn't fit with the point of base classes (generality and options), it's just too specific, and dare I say it, ''too'' flavoursome. Shrink is probably too powerful. You can use it as the ultimate scout. 1-2 step is better.<br />
Aside: I saw ''Ghost in the Shell 2nd GiG'' the other day, and the class reminds me of the ''tachikoma'' a lot. I do like the flavour but not the mechanics. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 21:34, 4 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:First thing; this was a pre-emtive attempt at class design (the riding rules actually prevent you from making two moves a turn, and I'm re-writing it anyway), and secondly, I don't want it to be a paragon path because of the 10 level wait, and because the way paragon paths work it woudn't really work... The class is basically designed as a base class for people who want strong theme to their character rather than a generical thing like the fighter. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:59, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::And antother thing: mounted combat has changed loads in 4e. Now the rider and his mount share actions between them rather than having a turn each. So your "main beef" is no problem at all! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:44, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Druids don't have mounted combat at level 1 (unless you're small), so I don't know where you're getting that impression from. A level 1 druid has an animal companion which takes orders (i.e. tricks). Same here. No rules say you ''must'' ride in combat, so you can bark orders to the spider (and the spider understands!) and get two moves. Even if they move on the same initiative, that's still big. Haven't checked the familiars section. I would expect the rules would be same in that sense. <br />
:::On another note, you said it wouldn't work as PP. Please explain? --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 19:51, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::PPs are too small to fit in everything I would like to. PPs can only be taken at 11th level, so if you wanted to be a spider rider you'd have to wait 10 levels, PPs are only supposed to be a tiny part of your character's identity, there is currently no class I can see taking a spider rider PP. I can't really do themed powers the way I'd like to. You would not be able to play a 1st level spider rider. The list goes on. I like PPs, but I'd rather have this as a class.<br />
::::I've sorted the two rounds thing; firstly all but the at-will rider powers are based around the riding consept, and so now you simply cannot use them unless mounted (it makes some sense; how do you do a mounted overrun on foot?). So if you want to use you powers (and adequacy in 4e relys on powers), you need to be mounted. Problem sorted!<br />
::::Druids don't actually exist in 4e yet, and neither do familliars.--[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:56, 6 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did an excellent job of making something potentially overpowered very well balanced. However, i think this class is a bit overpowered because of the rider/mound versatility and potential loopholes from this versatility (for example, being able to see through your mounds eyes at all times could get abused) --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording is both complete and fluent --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is standard and complete --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because i cant give it a six --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
This is a very well made and from what i can tell complete class. My only suggestion would be add some variation to the spider riders attack powers, they all seem similar with small differences, especially at level 1. --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Beastmaster? ==<br />
<br />
This looks very similar to the Beast Companion class feature in Martial Power. Maybe the spider rider's mount could follow the same rules, instead of having to finagle new ones? --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 15:59, 31 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<this powerful class is very well balanced.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is good and fluent.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' 5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is amazing.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Lances==<br />
Given that this is a mounted class, shouldn't they really start with lance proficiency?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 13:22, 31 May 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:It was supposed to. There wasn't a set of rules for lances, so it got longspear prof instead. I have made rules for lances, I just forgot to make the change. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:28, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Ok, thanks =D Also, what about spidersilk armor?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 21:36, 03 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:: Look [[Equipment (Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind Chapter)|here.]] [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 00:47, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::: I know where it is. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in my meaning, but what I meant was "why don't spider riders have spidersilk armor proficiency?"--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 16:24, 04 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
:::: As Spider Silk is better then hide in every way, other then gp cost, I think it's worth a proficiency feat.[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:21, 4 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Spider_Rider_(4e_Class)&diff=365685Talk:Spider Rider (4e Class)2009-06-04T16:21:50Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Lances */</p>
<hr />
<div>==This really should be a Paragon Path==<br />
<br />
My main beef with this as a base class is the same as 3e druid at level 1: the player effectively gets 2 moves a round. This has a big problem in terms of game balance. Secondly, serving Lolth/Arachne doesn't fit with the point of base classes (generality and options), it's just too specific, and dare I say it, ''too'' flavoursome. Shrink is probably too powerful. You can use it as the ultimate scout. 1-2 step is better.<br />
Aside: I saw ''Ghost in the Shell 2nd GiG'' the other day, and the class reminds me of the ''tachikoma'' a lot. I do like the flavour but not the mechanics. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 21:34, 4 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:First thing; this was a pre-emtive attempt at class design (the riding rules actually prevent you from making two moves a turn, and I'm re-writing it anyway), and secondly, I don't want it to be a paragon path because of the 10 level wait, and because the way paragon paths work it woudn't really work... The class is basically designed as a base class for people who want strong theme to their character rather than a generical thing like the fighter. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:59, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::And antother thing: mounted combat has changed loads in 4e. Now the rider and his mount share actions between them rather than having a turn each. So your "main beef" is no problem at all! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:44, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Druids don't have mounted combat at level 1 (unless you're small), so I don't know where you're getting that impression from. A level 1 druid has an animal companion which takes orders (i.e. tricks). Same here. No rules say you ''must'' ride in combat, so you can bark orders to the spider (and the spider understands!) and get two moves. Even if they move on the same initiative, that's still big. Haven't checked the familiars section. I would expect the rules would be same in that sense. <br />
:::On another note, you said it wouldn't work as PP. Please explain? --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 19:51, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::PPs are too small to fit in everything I would like to. PPs can only be taken at 11th level, so if you wanted to be a spider rider you'd have to wait 10 levels, PPs are only supposed to be a tiny part of your character's identity, there is currently no class I can see taking a spider rider PP. I can't really do themed powers the way I'd like to. You would not be able to play a 1st level spider rider. The list goes on. I like PPs, but I'd rather have this as a class.<br />
::::I've sorted the two rounds thing; firstly all but the at-will rider powers are based around the riding consept, and so now you simply cannot use them unless mounted (it makes some sense; how do you do a mounted overrun on foot?). So if you want to use you powers (and adequacy in 4e relys on powers), you need to be mounted. Problem sorted!<br />
::::Druids don't actually exist in 4e yet, and neither do familliars.--[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:56, 6 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did an excellent job of making something potentially overpowered very well balanced. However, i think this class is a bit overpowered because of the rider/mound versatility and potential loopholes from this versatility (for example, being able to see through your mounds eyes at all times could get abused) --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording is both complete and fluent --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is standard and complete --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because i cant give it a six --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
This is a very well made and from what i can tell complete class. My only suggestion would be add some variation to the spider riders attack powers, they all seem similar with small differences, especially at level 1. --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Beastmaster? ==<br />
<br />
This looks very similar to the Beast Companion class feature in Martial Power. Maybe the spider rider's mount could follow the same rules, instead of having to finagle new ones? --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 15:59, 31 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<this powerful class is very well balanced.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is good and fluent.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' 5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is amazing.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Lances==<br />
Given that this is a mounted class, shouldn't they really start with lance proficiency?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 13:22, 31 May 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:It was supposed to. There wasn't a set of rules for lances, so it got longspear prof instead. I have made rules for lances, I just forgot to make the change. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:28, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Ok, thanks =D Also, what about spidersilk armor?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 21:36, 03 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:: Look [[Equipment (Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind Chapter)|here.]] [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 00:47, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::: I know where it is. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in my meaning, but what I meant was "why don't spider riders have spidersilk armor proficiency?"--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 16:24, 04 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
:::: As Spider Silk is better then hide in every way, I think it's worth a proficiency feat.[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:21, 4 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aberrant_Heritage_(4e_Feat)&diff=365684Talk:Aberrant Heritage (4e Feat)2009-06-04T16:19:28Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Help ==<br />
<br />
What am I doing wrong? Is there something wrong with the template? --[[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 09:47, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:fixed, it said |type=Standard Action, where it should have been |actiontype=Standard Action. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:19, 4 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Aberrant_Heritage_(4e_Feat)&diff=365683Aberrant Heritage (4e Feat)2009-06-04T16:18:58Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{author<br />
|author_name=Aboleth11<br />
|date_created=06/02/2009<br />
|status=Incomplete<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{x0<br />
|nbofbalance= -<br />
|prereq=<br />
|desc= }}<br />
===Abberant Heritage [Abberant Bloodline]===<br />
<br />
<!-- Brief description of feat. -->.<br />
<br />
'''Tier:''' Heroic<br />
<br />
'''Prerequisite:''' Living humanoid race<br />
<br />
'''Benefit:''' Chose one of the following.<br />
:+4 bonus to acrobatics checks.<br />
<br />
:You gain a tentacle attack:<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Tentacle<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|usage=At-Will<br />
|owner=Feat<br />
|class=<br />
|flavor=You smash your foe with your tentacle.<br />
|keyword1=<br />
|range=Melee<br />
|rangemod=<br />
|target=One creature<br />
|attack=Strength or Dexterity<br />
|defense=AC<br />
|hit=1d8 + Strength or Dexterity modifier damage<br />
|effect=The target is grabbed (until escape).<br />
|special=When you choose this benefit you choose either Strength or Dexterity to attack with this power. Once you make that choice you can't change it later.<br />
:This power counts as a melee basic attack. When a power allows to make a melee basic attack, you can use this power.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
---- <!-- insert pages that link to this feat here --><br />
Back to [[Main Page]] &rarr; [[4e Homebrew|4e Homebrew]] &rarr; [[4e Character Options|Character Options]] &rarr; [[4e Feats|Feats]] &rarr; [[4e <!-- subcategory --> Feats|<!-- subcategory --> Feats]].<br />
<!-- Remove this line to add your feat to categories <br />
[[Category:4e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Heroic Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Paragon Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Epic Feat]]<br />
[[Category:General Feat]]<br />
--></div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure&diff=365653User:ShadowyFigure2009-06-04T10:05:18Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div><div style="width: 50%; padding: 1px; background-color: #003F87; margin: 1px; background-color: #003F87; border: 1px; #1874CD; float:right;"><br />
{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 100%; "<br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 2px 5px;" |<font style = "color: #000000>'''About Me'''</font><br />
| style="background-color: "#FFFFFF;" padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: right;" |<font style="font-weight: bold; color: #000000;"></font><br />
|- valign="center"<br />
|align="center" colspan="2" |[[Image:shadowyfigure.JPG|400px|center]]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Name'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
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|- valign="top"<br />
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|- valign="top"<br />
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|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | Student <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Facts'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" |<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Interests'''<br />
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| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Other Online Activities'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2"| <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Family'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Wiki Goals'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''Contact'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | * email[mailto:onemanhorde@gmail.com]<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CAE1FF" | '''External Links'''<br />
|- valign="top"<br />
| align="center" colspan="2" | <br />
|-<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 10px"|[http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/ShadowyFigure'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp; My Contributions&nbsp;</span>''']<br />
| style="background-color: #003F87; padding: 3px 5px 3px 0; text-align: center;" |[[User talk:ShadowyFigure|'''<span style=" color:white">&nbsp;My Talk&nbsp;</span>''']]<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==User since 03/23/07==<br />
{|align=center<br />
|__TOC__<br />
|}<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
==About Me==<br />
<br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==About Me on the Wiki==<br />
<br />
<br />
==Wiki Information==<br />
*[[User:ShadowyFigure/My Stuff|My Stuff]], <br />
* '''Current Project:''' [[Age of War Campaign Guide (Age of War Supplement)]], [[Age of War Player's Guide (Age of War Supplement)]]<br />
* '''Campaign Settings:''' [[Age of War (4e Campaign Setting)]]<br />
* '''Adopted:''' <br />
* '''To Do:''' To Many Things.<br />
* '''Sandbox:''' [[User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox|Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox]]<br />
* '''Random Page:''' <br />
</div><br />
<div style="width: 41%; border: 1px solid #1874CD; padding: .5em 1em; color: #000033; background-color: #CAE1FF; margin: 6px 6px 0; text-align: left"><br />
<br />
==Userpage==<br />
Please feel free to use this User Page template for your own page! THANKS HOOPER!)<br />
</div><br />
==To Do/Awards==<br />
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left"<br />
|-<br />
! width="50%" | '''The To Do list:''' !! Awards<br />
|-<br />
|<br />
'''Active Development'''<br />
<br />
;Things to add<br />
<br />
;Ideas (Things to Write)<br />
<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br><br />
<br />
[[Category:United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sam_Kay&diff=365651User talk:Sam Kay2009-06-04T09:10:12Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Hey again... */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Messages of Interest|messages=<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:4e_Creatures<br />
|section=Basic Ranged Template<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=14:11, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:4e_Equipment<br />
|section=Artifact Template?<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=13:07, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Spider_Egg,_Monstrous_(3.5e_Equipment)<br />
|section=Size<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=12:42, 13 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Spider_Egg,_Monstrous_(3.5e_Equipment)<br />
|section=Size<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=12:42, 13 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Age_of_War_(4e_Campaign_Setting)<br />
|section=Power Sources<br />
|notifier=ShadowyFigure<br />
|date_time=08:35, 12 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=4e_Rituals<br />
|section=<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=15:09, 2 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=4e_Index_(4e_Other)<br />
|section=Could be expanded upon if you have some time, see also talk.<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=09:38, 18 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=The_Naaru_(4e_Deity)<br />
|section=Can the 4e deities use the 3.5e template or are they too different?<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=04:30, 9 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Spiderling_(4e_Creature)<br />
|section=Damage<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=05:53, 22 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Genelf_(4e_Race)<br />
|section=If you have some extra time could you format this? If not let me know by MoI and I can.<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=04:23, 22 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Sohei_(4e_Class)<br />
|section=4e but has all the 3.5e templates<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=14:46, 13 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=User_talk:Green_Dragon<br />
|section=4e Drider<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=14:14, 13 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:DnD_Deities<br />
|section=4e &amp; 3.5e Deities<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=17:03, 4 March 2009 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Passenger_Armor_(4e_Equipment)<br />
|section=Template<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=04:46, 21 February 2009 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Template:Featured_Article_Synopsis<br />
|section=Change th&Auml;&plusmn;s &Auml;&plusmn;f you do not l&Auml;&plusmn;ke the word&Auml;&plusmn;ng<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=10:53, 20 February 2009 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Elf,_Variant_(4e_Race)<br />
|section=Could you log &Auml;&plusmn;nto the Tavern please? I want to d&Auml;&plusmn;scuss the synops&Auml;&plusmn;s of th&Auml;&plusmn;s art&Auml;&plusmn;cle w&Auml;&plusmn;th you...<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=10:15, 20 February 2009 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Arachonomicon;_the_Book_of_Spiderkind_(4e_Sourcebook)<br />
|section=<br />
|notifier=Hooper<br />
|date_time=11:14, 25 January 2009 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Arachonomicon;_the_Book_of_Spiderkind_(4e_Sourcebook)<br />
|section=Featured Article Nomination<br />
|notifier=Hooper<br />
|date_time=10:36, 25 January 2009 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Mage_(4e_Class)<br />
|section=<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=05:55, 29 November 2008 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=User_talk:Green_Dragon<br />
|section=4e Drider<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=16:16, 25 November 2008 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:4e_User_Base_Classes_with_Descriptions<br />
|section=No Description Present<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=10:27, 3 November 2008 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:4e_User_Base_Classes_with_Descriptions<br />
|section=Type<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=10:26, 3 November 2008 (MST)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:Spider-Lord_(4e_Class)<br />
|section=Overpowered<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=15:14, 29 October 2008 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
{{MoI-Row<br />
|page=Talk:4e_Creatures_by_Level<br />
|section=DPL<br />
|notifier=Green Dragon<br />
|date_time=15:18, 19 October 2008 (MDT)<br />
}}<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Welcome to D&D Wiki== <br />
<br />
Hello {{PAGENAME}}, and welcome to D&D Wiki! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like D&D Wiki and decide to stay. I am the owner of the site, and if you have a question feel free to ask me, however when contacting anyone on D&D Wiki through talk pages please sign your name using four tildes <nowiki>(~~~~)</nowiki>; this will automatically produce your name and the date. Also, if you want to help D&D Wiki but just don't know how [http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:Green_Dragon&action=edit&section=new drop me a note] and I'll see what I can do. However, when dropping me a note please tell me how much time you would like to spend working, how well you know the Wiki Format, and how well you know D&D. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a D&D Wikian! If you need help ask me on my talk page, or just right here. Again, welcome! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:34, 5 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
{| class="messagebox protected" align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border:1px solid #000000; padding:0px; text-align: center; width: 100%;"<br />
|-<br />
| class="left" |<br />
{{:Talk:Age of War (4e Campaign Setting)}}<br />
|-<br />
|}<br />
<br />
== Monstrous Spider Existance ==<br />
<br />
Can anyone tell me how monstrous spiders exist in D&D (were they made magically or by Lolth)? [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 07:28, 23 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Up to the DM really. To some DMs, they are natural to the world (think of Mirkwood in Lord of the Rings). To others maybe monsters are all a result of some planar gate being opened. Maybe Monstrous spiders are magically infused regular spiders. And yes, you could even say they were made by Lloth. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 08:54, 23 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::You know the spider's in mirkwood are not natural. They are demons corrupted by the evil valar morgoth! But spider's that size could not be natural. They would be unable to breath![[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:09, 23 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Here I thought they were just natural Mirkwood dwellers... Cool! True they would be unable to breathe unless magically/divinely/genetically modified. Maybe they grew to have lungs at that size (different evolutionary path on that particular world). Maybe they just magically work (like an enlarge type spell that is infused with their nature so that they are not subject to dispelling or antimagic). Perhaps they are divinely that way (I mean come on, try to explain time stop, resurrection, etc)! It is really up to the DM should they want to explain the origin. It can also be up to the designer should the designer want to explain the origin. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 12:13, 25 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: maybe its their diet from platdragon<br />
<br />
== Trademarks ==<br />
<br />
Most of Middle-Earth is trademarked and/or copyrighted. Those who publish Middle-Earth RPG's pay for the right to use those names. Alas, we can not host this material here. I wish that we could. The one thing that I can guarantee is that someone with the rights to this IP will soon send us a messages saying, "Remove this." They are generally protective of their rights. Quite honestly, this is not a fight any of us is willing to make. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 14:33, 17 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:The Fair use of copyright act allows use of copyright so long as you give credit to the copyright holder and don't use it to gain proft (I just reasearched it). <br />
<br />
{{quote|What is fair use?<br />
In copyright law, there is a concept of fair use, also known as; free use, fair dealing, or fair practice.<br />
<br />
Fair use sets out certain actions that may be carried out, but would not normally be regarded as an infringement of the work.<br />
<br />
The idea behind this is that if copyright laws are too restrictive, it may stifle free speech, news reporting, or result in disproportionate penalties for inconsequential or accidental inclusion.<br />
<br />
What does fair use allow?<br />
Under fair use rules, it may be possible to use quotations or excerpts, where the work has been made available to the public, (i.e. published). Provided that:<br />
<br />
The use is deemed acceptable under the terms of fair dealing.<br />
That the quoted material is justified, and no more than is necessary is included.<br />
That the source of the quoted material is mentioned, along with the name of the author.<br />
Typical free uses of work include:<br />
Inclusion for the purpose of news reporting.<br />
Incidental inclusion.<br />
National laws typically allow limited private and educational use.<br />
What is incidental inclusion?<br />
This is where part of a work is unintentionally included. A typical examples of this would be a case where holiday movie inadvertently captured part of a copyright work, such as some background music, or a poster that just happened to on a wall in the background.<br />
<br />
Points to keep in mind...<br />
The actual specifics of what is acceptable will be governed by national laws, and although broadly similar, actual provision will vary from country to country.<br />
<br />
Cases dealing with fair dealing can be complex, as decisions are based on individual circumstances and judgements. This can be a very difficult area of copyright law.<br />
<br />
To avoid problems, if you are in any doubt, you are advised to always get the permission of the owner, prior to use.}}<br />
<br />
Also, I did ask green dragon and blue dragon a long time before adding this;<br />
<br />
{{quote|<br />
;The Lord of the rings <br />
I am a huge fan of said book, and I have created a D&D campaign setting based on it. I would be interested in putting it on D&D wiki, but it is quite big so I thought I should check with you. It also has quite abit of SRD and modified SRD in it, which may need sorting out. And it is in a word document (I don't know how to turn it into D&Dwiki formatting without spending 1000+ years converting it bit by bit). It may need some work to make it entirely sound. I will not submit it without your permision, and I would also like abit of advice for converting it to wiki format please. Thanks! Sam Kay 12:57, 11 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
The CS will work on here, please add it. Also, about the formatting, what word do you have? I think Word 07 has a text to wiki-code converter, which may be very helpful to you. However, if you do not, Open Office (free) may have an extension that does that... If neither work I believe Blue Dragon make a PDF to wiki-code programm which he may be able to modify... Tell me if it works, or what is happening. Thanks. --Green Dragon 19:36, 11 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
I have word 03. Where can I get open office? Thanks for your help. Sam Kay 09:07, 12 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Open Office here. However, once again, I am not 100% sure if they have an extension... Your best bet really may be to ask Blue Dragon if he could modify his converting script. --Green Dragon 09:11, 12 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
Well, I am unable to get open office (administrater ect.) so I will ask Blue Dragon. Thanks.Sam Kay 09:34, 12 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
No problem. --Green Dragon 09:46, 12 June 2007 (MDT)|orig=User talk:Green Dragon/Archive 6}}<br />
<br />
{{quote|<br />
;Lord of the Rings <br />
Hey, Blue Dragon! I have created a D&D campaign setting based on said book, and when I asked green dragon, he said I should put it on D&D wiki. However, it is in a word (2003) document, and I don't know how to convert it into wiki formatting without taking forever. When I asked Green Dragon, he said you had a PDF wiki-code program that might help. Could you please help me convert it? Thanks. Sam Kay 09:44, 12 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
Sure, this sounds like a great idea! Upload your .doc file, and I will look at parsing it and try to get it up soon. I did build a xml-to-wiki program, and it would probably just take a little bit of tweaking to get it to work with RTF. Upload to it to DnD Media Repository, and I will take a look at it. — Blue Dragon (talk) 10:36, 12 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
How do I do that? Sam Kay 10:48, 12 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
Go to this page, and sign in with your D&D Wiki username and password, and then fill out the form. Let me know if you have any other problems. — Blue Dragon (talk) 12:34, 12 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
Thanks for that, I have now managed to upload it. it is Here. Sam Kay 14:19, 12 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
Hm... this book in .doc format is a lot harder to convert than what I used for .xml. I will try <br />
<br />
some things, but don't expect quick progress. — Blue Dragon (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
Let me know how you like the current formatting. — Blue Dragon (talk) 13:18, 14 June 2007 (MDT) <br />
<br />
I really like the curent formatting. I think the page is ready to put on the campaign setting pages now. I have made some minour text adjustments (correcting my text mistakes, adding several things to the orks ect), so it is now ready. Sam Kay 05:28, 16 June 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
Also, look at the [http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page lord of the rings wiki]. They are perfecvtly legal without lots of legality things (all they have to do is give credit to tolkien- which will happen of said page). The only reason why copyright material is not normally allowed on wikis is because no credit is gioven to the auther. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:46, 18 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::If Green Dragon is OK with this, then I'll be OK with this. As a favor to yourself, please look up Trademarks. The rights for trademarks are very different than the rights for copyright, with a completely different set of pitfalls. My hesitation here is with trademark issues. <br />
<br />
::I look forward to your good work. (Really. I don't want to pick a fight. I'm just acting with due diligence. For example, we don't have permission to use WotC trademarks, and using such a trademark can get our license to use the OGL revoked. This is why you don't see anything like Vecna or Mordenkain on this site.)--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 18:45, 18 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Green dragon asked me to do that as well, and I am ahead of you: I asked "one wiki to rule them all" (the Lord of thre Rings wiki)to see what they knew of copyright things (they have things like "hobbit" on their site). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:16, 19 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Great! Thanks for doing the footwork and looking into this this. For once, I like knowing that I'm behind the curve. Keep up the good work, and we all look forward to a great addition!--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 07:17, 22 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Wiki style ==<br />
<br />
Hi Sam Kay, <br />
<br />
I noticed that on [[Hobbits (DnD Race)]], you put a link behind a headline, as in <br />
<br />
<nowiki>=[http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Hobbit Hobbit]=</nowiki><br />
<br />
That's bad style. First of all, not everybody will know the LotR wiki, so it's better of you put it in something like:<br />
<br />
:<nowiki>For more information, see the [http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Hobbit Hobbit] on LotR Wiki.</nowiki><br />
<br />
So they know where you are leading them. Second, Headlines are for thematic separation of text. As such, they should not lead somewhere else, that's what links in the text are for. Apart from the fact that blue headlines don't look good. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 08:26, 19 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Okay, I will move the headline as soon as all D&D LotR races are complete (I have 3 remaining). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:36, 19 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Preview ==<br />
<br />
Hey Sam Kay,<br />
<br />
Did you notice the Preview button when you edit pages? You don't have to save your pages every minute, you can check your changes before you do. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 07:41, 22 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Yeah, I have been using it, I just often need to come off the PC for short periods of time, or save so I don't accidentally lose content. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:58, 22 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== LotR Names ==<br />
<br />
Hello. Since all your LotR information is under the [[J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings (DnD Campaign Setting)]] it should be named appropriately. Everything on D&D Wiki should have an identifier (e.x. "DnD Race") - your CS, sadly, is no exception. So, I would be very happy if you could spend some time renaming all your LotR material. For example [[LotR Equipment]] should really not be called that - it should be named "Equipment (LotR Supplement)". Thanks. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:45, 22 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Ah... Sorry about giving you confusing information. Only the articles without an identifier need to be moved - like [[LotR Races]]. The creatures should be kept at a "DnD Creature" identifier as that is where they will be found at. If you want me to do this please tell me and I will be more than happy to help, and sorry about making it so confusing. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:46, 23 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Also, for future reference, there are three parts to any CS. The landing page, which has the identifier of "DnD Campaign Setting", then the supplement areas (these would include pages like [[Estë (Valar)]]) these should have the identifier of "LotR Supplement" and finally the content pages. These include anything from CS specific races to CS specific items. These should all be labeled with the identifier that pertains to them the best. For example races should be labeled as "DnD Race" and function as a typical race on D&D Wiki whereas a creature should be labeled as "DnD Creature" and function as a typical creature on D&D Wiki. I hope this helps, and if you need any more help please feel free to ask. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:52, 23 August 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anti-Vandal Barnstar ==<br />
<br />
{{Anti-Vandal Barnstar|I give you this Anti-Vandal Barnstar for reverting spam edits on [[User:Dandwiki Helper]] about 11 minutes after the spammer, IP [[Special:Contributions/204.39.95.9|204.39.95.9]] attacked. Thanks for the good and fast response. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:30, 3 September 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
==LotR NPCs==<br />
<br />
Sam it is I! Leon message shadowyfigure to reply I just havn't been able to log currently. <br />
<br />
If you like I shall do the stack blocks for the NPCS as originally planned during the first edition drafting but you decided not to include them<br />
<br />
== check this out ==<br />
<br />
[[Revolver]] {{Unsigned|Shadow7angel7|15:28, 9 September 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
== Half-Life ==<br />
<br />
Hey, if you have time it would be awesome if you could add [[Template:Copyright Disclaimer]] to all the half-life articles on D&D Wiki (A complete list can be found [[User:Sulacu|here]]). Thanks. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:30, 15 October 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:sure, when I have time. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:27, 16 October 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Done. I also sent the author of the pages a note, asking him to add the template to new "Half-Life 2" pages he may make in the future. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 12:59, 16 October 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Thank you ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:41, 16 October 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::No problem! ''':)''' --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 11:17, 17 October 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Bad Edits ==<br />
<br />
My sincerest apologies for the bad edits. My bot ran amok. We will work to rectify this. [[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 12:39, 20 October 2007 (MDT).<br />
<br />
:Its alright. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:37, 21 October 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Presenting.... ==<br />
<br />
Hey Sam so I have begun work on the cover (below) and I have a picture for the Good Races Of Middle Earth (Also Below) These use images from the Lord Of The Rings Online game just so you know and are the images that worked best instead of really badly cut out movie images. Hope you like them and especially like the firey back ground on the cover. Try to get the word document asap so I can begin work on prettying it. <br />
<br />
[http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/DarkSideGallery/LordOfTheRingsD20.png]<br />
'''The Cover.'''<br />
<br />
[http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/DarkSideGallery/GoodRacesOfMiddleEarth.png]<br />
'''Good Races of Middle Earth'''<br />
<br />
I'm working on the others. {{Unsigned|ShadowyFigure|16:31, 6 November 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
== Spider Rider ==<br />
<br />
Nice work on the Spider Rider classes, Sam. It inspired me to make my own modified Spider Rider base class. --[[User:Dunkleheit|Dunkleheit]], 8:01 PM Pacific, 11/8/07<br />
<br />
:please ignore the base clas version, it is incomplete, just look at the Prestige class version. That is complete and 10/10. If you wan't to finnish off the base class version, go ahead, just keep in mind the existing rating. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:28, 9 November 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Adminship ==<br />
<br />
I feel you have been here long enough, and know enough about D&D Wiki, to become an admin. So, I am wondering if you would like me to nominate you for adminship. Let me know what you decide ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:57, 2 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:I am willing to accept adminship, if you think I am suitable. Thanks! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:46, 3 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Glad to hear you will accept it, and yes I do think you are suitable. I will nominate you in a couple of days (probably tomorrow actually) since I just want it so people can see the new current news items before they change to adminship ones. If you would like to prepare in advance you could always write up your answers to the questions while you are waiting. Sorry about the wait. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:43, 4 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::I have nominated you. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:22, 5 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::Welcome to Adminship. You are now, as [[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] once put it, part of "The Face" of D&D Wiki. Honestly, as you will notice, not much has been changed now that you are an admin. If anything, I would say more burden is placed on you. But first, for the the new features and their uses. You can now delete pages, protect pages, rollback edits, block users and IP's, edit every page, patrol edits, and do a couple more minor things.<br />
::::;What it is:<br />
::::*What deleting pages is, is self explanatory.<br />
::::*What protecting pages is, is also pretty self explanatory.<br />
::::*Rolling back edits is a method for removing spam. It is more powerful than the conventional method of undoing edits. Instead of showing a diff of the edit in question once clicked, it instantly rollsback all the edits by the user or IP in question on a certain page. For example if I edited my user page and you clicked "rollback" on that edit it would rollback all the edits up to the point where someone else has edited it. Be careful using this, it can be very helpful but also very harmful.<br />
::::*What blocking users and IP's is, is also self explanatory.<br />
::::*Editing every page is another self explanatory one.<br />
::::*Patrolling edits is a method for keeping [[Special:Recentchanges|RC]] in check, it can be seen once a diff is clicked. All it does is, once "Mark as Patrolled Edits" is clicked, it marks the edits as patrolled so the edit will no longer show up on [[Special:Recentchanges|RC]] when "Hide Patrolled" is marked.<br />
::::;When or how it should be used<br />
::::*Deleting pages is normally done through [[:Category:Candidates for Deletion]]. Anything with a good reason to be deleted on that page should be deleted. The other time pages should be deleted is when someone makes a certain page and after a few edits they either blank the page or replace it with something like "Please delete this". They don't want to work on it, and unless it is really well made and fleshed out, just delete it.<br />
::::*Protecting pages has quite a few different times when it should be used. Pages should be protected according to the author's wishes (with [[Template:Locked Page]] added to the top of the page in question), in case of conflict (with [[Template:Temp Locked Page]] added to the top of the page in question), in case of [[Help:FAQ#What are OGL, OGC, SRD, and GNU FPL?|OGC]] published materials (with [[Template:OGL Top]] added to the top of the page in question and [[Template:OGL Bottom]] added to the bottom), or finally if the page is a vital part of D&D Wiki's organization. If it deals with D&D Wiki's organization it either needs to be be protected from IP edits or all non-sysop edits. As a rule of thumb pages up to two tiers deep from the [[Main Page]] are normally locked to anyone but sysops and all the others are just protected from IP edits. For Example [[Dungeons and Dragons]] is protected from all non-sysop edits whereas a deeper in page like [[LA 0 Races]] is only protected from IP edits. No template has to be added to pages if thay are part of D&D Wiki's organization (even though some do exist like [[Template:Admin Locked Page]])<br />
::::*Blocking a user or IP should only be used after an IP or user vandalizes a certain page. To block someone just click "block" (found either on [[Special:Recentchanges|RC]] or the diff in question) and fill out the corresponding form. For a typical vandalism attack I normally block the user for two weeks. If I'm in a bad mood from vandalism or a certain discussion, then I sometimes block them for up to a month. No standards have been set for block lengths, so it is currently really up to you when you block the user or IP.<br />
::::*Editing every page on D&D Wiki mostly means you can now edit the [[SRD:System Reference Document|SRD]] and the [[MSRD:Modern System Reference Document|MSRD]]. Feel free to edit them if you find inaccuracies. Also, if you want to, for lack of a better word, major in the [[SRD:System Reference Document|SRD]] (as [[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] has done) or the [[MSRD:Modern System Reference Document|MSRD]] (as [[User:EldritchNumen|EldrithNumen]] has done) take a look at [[SRD Talk:System Reference Document#SRD ToDo List]] or [[MSRD Talk:Modern System Reference Document#Tasks]] to see what needs to be done within the [[SRD:System Reference Document|SRD]] or [[MSRD:Modern System Reference Document|MSRD]]. There is never enough help to get it all done, so I am sure your help would be appreciated.<br />
::::*Patrolling edits should, in a nutshell, be used when you have looked over an edit and fixed everything that needs to be fixed (this includes answering questions, sending MoI's, etc). If you decide to, for a lack of better words, major in [[Special:Recentchanges|RC]] (as I have ''':)''') then marking edits as patrolled will become commonplace and extremely helpful. Below is how to "major" in recent changes, which would be a great help to D&D Wiki and I. First off load recent changes and press "Hide patrolled edits". Next click any diff and look at the change. Only if you are 100% sure that the edit is okay (taking formatting standards, page-linking (using the "what links here?" function), answering questions, sending MoI's, and line spacing between comments and/or the "Back to" footer into consideration) then mark the edit as patrolled. If the edit is not okay then all you have to do is fix the problem then mark the edit as patrolled. It's simple, but looking over every edit on D&D Wiki really keeps it looking and running well. In my opinion, it is the most vital part of D&D Wiki. Even marking only 20 edits as patrolled every day would be extremely helpful with this never-ending task.<br />
::::I know this is really long-winded, so I'll keep the rest short. You have more burden on youself now that you are an admin because users will be looking at you for editing help, knowledge of the standards, etc etc. It's a bit more work, but I really hope you enjoy being an admin and I hope you decide to stay around on D&D Wiki for a while more to come. Welcome to Adminship, again, as [[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] once put it, you're now part of "The Face" of D&D Wiki. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:57, 12 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::::Thanks. I hope I do a good job as admin. I have one question though. Should I put information about what I do as admin on D&D wiki on [[D&D Wiki:Administrators]]? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:19, 13 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::::Currently [[D&D Wiki:Administrators]] just has you down as "Admin" because your role ''as an admin'' has not really become defined yet. As it becomes defined feel free to update what it says about you ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:09, 13 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Recent Equipment Items ==<br />
<br />
Hello. I was just looking through your recent D20M equipment additions and hey all need to have [[:Category:Halo Setting]] present. If you could add this to all the Halo Setting materials that do not have this category present that would be amazing. Thanks! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:23, 9 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Ok. Will do. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:05, 10 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Thank you in advance! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:36, 10 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::Done. {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|08:49, 11 December 2007 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
==Elfish Stamina==<br />
<br />
Your point about the endurance of elves is well taken. Orcs, too. Dwarves, of course. And Ents, naturally, never tire, unless they are ripping apart ancient fortresses and diverting the course of rivers with their bare hands. Even then they shake it off. And you rarely see Elendil's progeny sweat, either.<br />
<br />
Don't get me wrong, I love the master, but sometimes it seems like the only people in his books who ever get tired are the unfortunate Hobbits. -- [[User:S1Q3T3|S1Q3T3]] 17:30, 18 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:I know. Perhaps that is why the D&D versions of elves where mdified to be a -2 con. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:47, 19 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Recent RC Patrols ==<br />
<br />
First off, thank you so much for helping with RC. It really has been helping keep it in check. Anyway, I looked over your patrols today (I know, I know... don't I have better things to do with my time?!?) and I have a few comments.<br />
# Feel free to patrol any SRD edit (not talk-page edit, but actual page edit) since only admins can edit them, and I feel that all the contributing admins are trustworthy.<br />
# Before marking a new item as patrolled make sure it is formatted right (Examples [[BloodOath Dagger (DnD Equipment)]] and [[Shifter's Blade (DnD Equipment)]]<br />
# Talk pages should only be patrolled once the discussion has been answered or finished (Example [[Talk:Divine Spear (DnD Monk Fighting Style)]])<br />
# Make sure [[Template:Unsigned]] has been added to unsigned posts before marking the edit as patrolled (Example [[SRD Talk:Dryad]]).<br />
Anyway, those were the only patrols I saw that were patrolled wrong, and thanks so much again for patrolling. All we have to do is patrol down until no more edits are left to patrol, and I feel that we can accomplish this quickly together. Thanks again. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 22:55, 20 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:I hope that comment did not push you away from helping with RC... Really, you are helping, and please continue to ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:17, 24 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::I looked over your patrols once again and I must say I am impressed. Every single one you changed as I would have, good job and thanks so much. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:19, 31 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::Actually I do have one question. What was the reasoning behind your edits on [[Gloves of the Spider (DnD Equipment)|Gloves of the Spider]], or did you just edit an out of date revision and make that one the current one? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:32, 31 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::To help with making sure you do not edit out-of-date revisions I would recommend that you just make sure to click the "Article" tab when you see something wrong with an edit and want to fix it. It will become habit, I imagine ''':)'''. Also, I hope to see you helping on RC again, and thanks so much so far! It really has helped and I hope that the problems with these out-of-date revisions have not pushed you away from helping with RC.... --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:19, 5 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Away ==<br />
<br />
I will be away on boxing day as I am visiting releatives. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 07:15, 25 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Have fun! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:46, 25 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Thanks. I am back. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:21, 27 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::Hope it was fun. Also, by the way, why did you refer to xmas above as "Boxing Day"? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 21:33, 27 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::Boxing day is the day after christmas... Oh, right, I see. You don't have Boxing Day in the US. In england, we call the day after christmas Boxing Day. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:45, 28 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::::As was said on [[Talk:Misspell (DnD Spell)|Misspell]], ''Gains a tidbit about England''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:27, 31 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Why did you delete stuff from my prestige class? ==<br />
<br />
I couldn't help noticing that you have deleted class feature descriptions from Prestige Class [[Brother of Blade (DnD Prestige Class)|Brother of Blade]]. I guess it was accident. -- [[User:Thiregan|Thiregan]] 15:07, 31.12.2007 (UTC +2)<br />
<br />
:Was it an out-of-date revision thing again? To get the material back I would recommend looking through the history and adding back the things that were accidentally deleted. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:47, 31 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
::I think I might have edited an out-of-date revision... I was looking through recent changes at the time. Sorry for that. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:57, 31 December 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
Hey Sam, I removed the AD&D rules... my bad...<br />
<br />
TK<br />
<br />
== Something for the Spider and Drow Enthusiast ==<br />
<br />
Thought you might be interested in [[Drider (DnD Template)|this]]. I never liked the [[SRD:Drider|SRD version]]. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 17:02, 8 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yeah, that's better than the SRD, cos it can be applied to an existing character, or another race. It makes more sense to have a template for drider. I'll make sure I use it when I get round to doing a Drow themed campaign. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:50, 9 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Feats ==<br />
<br />
Feats still have yet to be dpl'ed (except the general ones), so I would appreciate it if you make sure all the feats you add are manually added to the appropriate page. Thanks! [[Target (DnD Feat)]]. Also, [[Hidden Blade (DnD Equipment)|Hidden Blade]] needs to be linked to from [[Weapon Descriptions]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 09:10, 8 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:On general feats removed the dplc and add a [[Template:x0]]. They really need descriptions. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:40, 13 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Mail ==<br />
<br />
Check your email. You'll find what you requested and a little extra.<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:02, 8 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Monstrous Spider Eggs ==<br />
<br />
sorry about editing your article i edited it because it seamed that it did not seem acurate because I belive that wizards created monsterous spiders were spaced the way they were so people could tell that the poison was diffrent between sizes i did not mean any disrespect. {{Unsigned|Platdragon|15:41, 27 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
== D&D Expieriance ==<br />
<br />
I WISH we could go :( However I thought you'd find this you tube videos intresting. Each of them about coming up stuff in 4e also I was thinking about playing 4e and a neat adventure is coming out befor 4e that we could play as it comes with a quick play guide and already made characters. Thats also in a link Below.<br />
<br />
'''4e Product Line up'''<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt3W_u9xmPA<br />
<br />
'''4e Roleplaying Ascessories'''<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VSoCWON8hA&feature=related<br />
<br />
'''4e D&D Insider Stuff '''<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT8dMw7RIH4<br />
<br />
'''4e Design Philosphy'''<br />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0DMw96UH0<br />
<br />
'''Keep On The ShadowFell'''<br />
<br />
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0786948507/ref=s9_asin_title_1_sims_c6?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0CY6GSH2JJQMHZFZYPX1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=139045791&pf_rd_i=468294<br />
<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:38, 4 March 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== User Page ==<br />
<br />
I have a [[User:ShadowyFigure|User Page]]<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:37, 4 March 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== I want to addopt Warrior of the Spider Clan (DnD Prestige Class) ==<br />
<br />
Ok I wish to adopt [[Warrior of the Spider Clan (DnD Prestige Class)]] How to I go about doing this. As I wish to expand it. --[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:50, 4 March 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:You got it now, right? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:28, 4 March 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:yep [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 03:35, 6 March 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Help with the fluff ==<br />
<br />
Hi, As Drow are more your thing and you seem the most living drow encyclopedia (The Drow lich tried to kill me when i ressurected it) I was wandering if you could help with the fluff for the Warrior of the Spider Clan mechanics wise i think it done it jsut needs some decent fluff then needs any grammar or wording mistakes fixed. Thanks. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:25, 6 March 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Spider Rider? ==<br />
<br />
[http://www.simplymaya.com/discounts_system/images/discount_images/large/spider_large.jpg Hey Dude look at this] {{Unsigned|ShadowyFigure|12:13, 17 March 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
== Npc stat blocks. ==<br />
<br />
Ok Im lost. How do I make the stat blocks and is there a template I can use as its the only thing I need for the Hashshashin other then a little fluff [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 16:17, 18 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Formula ==<br />
<br />
Sam what is the formula you used to calculate the ShadeSpiders Spider Jump as I need for the epic progression of the Shadow Dancer. Thanks! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:42, 21 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: The [[SRD:Shadowdancer#EPIC SHADOWDANCER|epic progression for the shadowdancer]] is in the SRD. It's shadow jump distance doubles every 2 levels. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 14:49, 21 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::He's doing a variant based on the Spider Rider's spider jump. There was no formula; [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] just made it up when he suggested the new table for the Spider Rider. Just use the Spider Rider's epic Spider Jump progression (the one I made up) and increase it by 100ft. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 15:20, 21 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
::: OK! ^^ [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 16:00, 21 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Congrats! ==<br />
<br />
I've noticed that your Spider Rider is the only Featured Article! Huzzah! --[[User:Sir Milo Teabag|Sir Milo Teabag]] 15:53, 21 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Abhorsen ==<br />
<br />
Someone... Beat us to it. [http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~mjw03/abhorsendnd.html|The Abhorsen campaign Setting] However I bet our charter mage idea would be cooler! This is also imcomplete so I think we should still make a charter mage and abhorsen class. Maybe expand it further, I'm willing to start after I finish that god damn ShadowDancer[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:24, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:B****r. Oh, well. Maybe make ours intergrate more with standard D&D CSs? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 13:26, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::(Off-topic) What on earth would be B****r be as a censored word? Like f*** s*** a** are all obvious. B****r? Butter? --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 13:57, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: Bugger maybe. I like our Charter Mark idea. It rocks. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:01, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::You are correct in both statements, [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]]. How is butter a censored word?!? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:04, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::How is bugger? I used that word when I was like four years old on the playground... --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 14:20, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::: My grandparents tel me off for saying damn... Should damn be a censored word ^^! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 15:06, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::: Bugger-off is an English equivalent to f-off, and some use the 'Bugger' portion by itself. --[[User:Calidore Chase|Calidore Chase]] 15:33, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::: Not true to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugger see bugger at wiki] [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 15:52, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::: Is true regardless of the wikipedia article. Every English person I know basically uses it as a replacement for the F word. When you say 'Bugger me' you are not saying 'run away me' but 'f me'. Or another example is 'bugger me sideways' - I highly doubt they are thinking 'run away sideways'. I've also heard 'Bugger me running!' which I highly doubt means 'running away me running!'. ----[[User:Calidore Chase|Calidore Chase]] 18:11, 25 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::: As an english citizn i assure you we dont use it to replace the f word. If were gonna say thef word. We'll say it. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 01:14, 26 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::no, that's just you and some other people... There are people who use it as a replacement for the eff word. It just sounds better! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:37, 26 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::I'm not saying that Brit's don't use the 'f' word, I'm simply saying that Bugger is more or less a replacement for it. Lived in England for many years and have adopted the word bugger as one of my personal favorite cusses. I also like to use the phrase 'bloody hell' --[[User:Calidore Chase|Calidore Chase]] 05:30, 26 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}<br />
<br />
:Ah, a favourite of the welsh, that last one. My dad is welsh, and he uses it all the time... especially when watching the rugby. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:29, 26 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Ahhh whats happen we've been talking bout censored wording and bugger... In an abohorsen message :S [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:56, 26 March 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Charter Marks ==<br />
<br />
Ok I have made a small change to the Pre Load. Now your descriptor will link to a page will all the current descriptors on. <br />
<br />
Also you have my marks so I can't add them! :( [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:35, 1 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== GENCON! ==<br />
<br />
GenCOn 2008 in reading.<br />
<br />
OK if your 16 when its on you have to pay 22.00 trainfare return. the event it 20 minutes walk from the station. its 12.00 entry. If your coming and I get permission from my dad (mum oked it.) then i'll arange everything online if you give me the money i can do it all under my name as at the event we need id such as the debit card who paid for it. Im the only one who can do that. Message me. [[User:ShadowyFigure]] 07:36, 5 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Tactical Marine Conversions ==<br />
<br />
Firstly may I point you to ''Trust your Battle Brother's'' Trait in the Space Marine Codex.<br />
<br />
Im gonna need your help converting them so they hold both a bolter in one arm and a chain sword in the other. Gonna have to by the arms separate (the ones with the chain sword and some with bolt pistol or plasma guns from Assault Squad boxes) Then do a hand conversion and swap the pistol for a bolter. How hard will this be. And well I geuss it will need pinning. Which I was wondering if you could do for me.[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:44, 6 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Shouldn't be too hard, or need pinning. Yes, I could do it for you. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:40, 7 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== DMing ==<br />
<br />
I've been thinking lately and DMing our groups games is starting to actually become less fun then the work i put into the adventures. And I want to know if what B says each setting is actually true. Am I DMing badly? Or being really unfair. I mean I can't think of anything I've done to weaken your characters but B seems to think I am somehow. And then he also complains about the 3 lives rule. Whats your opinion on the whole thing as I'm trying to become a better DM and player and if you think I am unfair in my judgments then can you say. Also if you think B is being unfair then I'd like to know you at least support some of my decisions or have if you have any thoughts on maker are sessions run smoother that would be good. Thanks. <BR><br />
<br />
P.s I decided to kill Rurik off and replace him with a fighter instead. This is a tactical fighter who will help the party a lot more then a halfling paladin riding dire badger ^^ and I am writing his history and fluff. Anyway I can never get into a halflings boots well. If B don't like this well tough. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:45, 8 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I think you are being perfectly fair; I have no idea why B is argueing about everything. I agree with your desicions as DM. As for making the game run smoother, just tell him that you'll use your ruling for the current session and you will discuss it with me in depth later and make a decision for how the situation will work if it comes up again. Your getting a fighter instead of the halfling? good! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:15, 9 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Thanks I'm glad someone thinks I'm being fair! And I will do as you suggest use my ruling for that session then discuss with you afterwards. At least your happy with the Fighter idea. Doubt B will be though but heh who cares. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 06:19, 9 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== The Spider Rider and my CS ==<br />
<br />
I just wanted to ask, is it ok if I include the spider rider as a available prestige class in my CS? I mean it wont be as important as it is in yours but I want to add a bit of story line to the drow in my CS even if they arn't a major race in it. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:34, 9 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Fine by me. Gives me an excuse to play one if you use your CS in one of our games. It was always designed as a PrC available in any CS with the drow and/or lolth. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:39, 9 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: Good Good I have to say its been fun making it up though the history is a bit of a pain to straighten out at the moment. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:42, 9 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== For The Emperor!!! ==<br />
<br />
Hi Sam. Good to know your back online.... Now I can plot yor death.... I mean happy life. Anyway, Started my marines today and have managed to put together a command squad (with bolter conversions which ended up being a piece of cake so I wont need your help) a Captain who not that interesting but will do as a HQ for now, A 5 Man scout Squad with 5 s. rifles and an almost put together assault marine squad. I have also painted the scouts undercoated chaos black spray then base coat of green armor and red capes. The guns are metal colored. I aim to go for a darer green later on this is however just the base coat. <br />
<br />
In all everythings good ill be going to the beginners club on sunday again but was wandering if you'd like to have a game with me so I could get the grasp of the game with someone more my age (Those kids were like 10!) Message back [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 15:04, 13 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
I put together a razorback! My first tank. :D YAY! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:04, 14 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Psychic Warrior Page needs a new link ==<br />
<br />
Hey, would you be able to add a link on the Psychic Warrior page to the Psychic Warrior Powers List? Would be in the following sentence: Choose the powers known from the psychic warrior power list. As it stands now, there is no link from the Psychic Warrior page to the Psychic Warrior Powers. Thanks! {{unsigned|12.146.0.130|10:27, 15 April 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:I just checked- there is a link. If I where to add one, it'd have to be without modifying the existing text; we can't modify the wording of SRD stuff, that is why they are locked. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 13:12, 15 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== The Brotherhood Calls For YOU!!! 4e Rules for you to look at and love. ==<br />
<br />
As promised, here are the links to enworld. You will ned to register (its free and takes a few minutes)<br />
<br />
[http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221396 Monsters and More]<br />
[http://wayfound.webng.com/KETERYSv1-7.pdf Random Grab-bag of Monsters]<br />
<br />
They are real good reads and interesting though there are a few minor error on the Monsters and More so I'm just gonna tweak em if used. Should have a 4e adventurer ready in a few weeks. We will use the pregen characters written out on to 4e c sheets. Talk tomorrow or message me [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:08, 15 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Good... Having looked at the PHB lite, I recon I could make a think for 1st level spider riders and improvise a drow thing, and play a 4e spider rider in our pre-emptive D&D game! What fun! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 13:12, 15 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: [http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=222575&page=1 look at this] [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:27, 15 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== damn internet ==<br />
<br />
Im online now if ya wanna go in the tavern [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:36, 15 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== (Pre 4e Homebrew) The Swordsage by Shadowy Figure ==<br />
<br />
[http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4166195&postcount=215 Swordsage]<br />
Posted on enworld. :D {{unsigned|ShadowyFigure|23:45, 15 April 2008}}<br />
<br />
:Your selectable powers do the same thing... Also, look at the rogue powers; they get dexterity to damage as standard, so your swordsage could as well. That would free up some class features. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:03, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: They don't... And anyway since I read the article on wotc I'm making a better one. COuld you send me the spider rider? Thanks [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 06:14, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: [http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4167132&postcount=223 Updated Swordsage] Still needs a bit of work but its pretty good. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 06:37, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Look [[User:Sam Kay/4e Spider Rider Prototype V1.0|here]]. Place any comments on the talk page. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 07:26, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: Looks good i'll gladly allow you to playone in the pre 4e adventure. Umm one thing have you got a specific preload or something for it. And you seem to have restricted spider jump a lot. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 08:00, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I had to restrict spider jump. And deadly charge, to make way for the spider... What do you mean preload? Do you mean for the powers layouts? I built those from scratch. Just copy and paste them. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:02, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::: Ok. I actually have to say my first project will be a big overhaul of book of nine swords to 4e. As well it was fun just doing small amounts of work on it. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 08:04, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I just hope I've understood the little we know about 4e as well as I think I do... Do you like how I did the spider? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:05, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::: Could you phone me I'd like to discuss something I'm a tad confused about, and the mount is good though when we have official rules for the spiders the mount should be reffered to as a Spider Mount instead of a monstrous spider [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 08:07, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::: Do you think you could make a few second level powers for your spider rider as a geusstimate. As I hope to have you level up to level two for the final encounter. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:26, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: !!! Renember second level powers are only utilitys [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:11, 19 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== 4e spider ==<br />
<br />
[http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4132623&postcount=3 Look here] Small Monstrous spider presented there. {{unsigned|ShadowyFigure|07:47, 16 April 2008}}<br />
<br />
:I don't need it. I already did a spider rider! It's spider is built from scratch. The spider rider gets some nice powers; one (I don't know how balanced it is) wraps up an enemy in spider skilk when you hit them (requires a followup attack), entangling them. Oh, and the charge ability (deadly charge) is a once per encounter thing, so no big problem. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:02, 16 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== SM ==<br />
<br />
First, Good Game Heretic good game.<br />
<br />
HQ<br />
<br />
Captain 110 Points<br />
w/ Combi-Plasma Gun, Artificer Armor, T Honors<br />
<br />
Elites<br />
<br />
Troop<br />
<br />
Tactical Squad 205 Points<br />
9 Space Marines w/ Las Cannon, Plasma Gun, Bolters x7 and Infiltrate<br />
Sergeant w/ Bolter and Infiltrate<br />
<br />
Tactical Squad 205 Points<br />
9 Space Marines w/ Las Cannon, Plasma Gun, Bolters x7 and Infiltrate<br />
Sergeant w/ Bolter and Infiltrate<br />
<br />
Scout Squad 90 Points<br />
4 Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles<br />
Sargent w/ Sniper Rifle <br />
<br />
Troop<br />
<br />
Fast Attack<br />
<br />
Assault Squad 250 Points<br />
9 Marines w/ Jump Pack, CC Weapon, Bolt Pistol <br />
Sergeant w/ T Honors, Power Fist<br />
<br />
Heavy Support<br />
<br />
Predator Destructor 125 Point<br />
w/ Las Cannons, Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter, Extra Armor<br />
<br />
TOTAL: 1000<br />
<br />
Just gotta buy me an extra box of tacticals, assaults, two plasma cannon sprues and maybe a new captain depends on what bitz i have left. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:25, 17 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Page Spreads ==<br />
<br />
[http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220268]<br />
<br />
Look at the images. The pages are way bigger now. Thats how they fit all the stuff in. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 17:10, 17 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
[http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=224230 2 6th level Gnolls Vs Premade 4e characters]<br />
<br />
== POWER CURVE ==<br />
<br />
Seems that the power curve is good. Expect a hard encounter like the above one in our premade adventure. <br />
<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:26, 19 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== AMAZON ==<br />
<br />
This isn't the actually thing I wanted to message you about but [http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4186907&postcount=18 here] is a reply from a email sent to amazon asking about preorder delivery dates. Looks like we may not get the on the day what so ever no matter what postage we choose. I'm still ordering an extra anyway.[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 17:06, 25 April 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Experimental 4e monster stat block==<br />
<br />
{| class="d20" align="center" width="50%"<br />
!align="left" colspan="2" |Orc Drudge<br><small>Medium Natural Humanoid</small> ||align="right" |Level 4 Minion<br><small>XP 44</small><br />
|- <br />
| align="left" colspan="3" |'''Initiative:''' +0 '''Senses:''' Perception +0; low-light vision<br> <br />
'''HP:''' 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.<!--'''Bloodied:'''--><br><br />
'''AC:''' 16 '''Fort:''' 15 '''Ref:''' 12 '''Will:''' 12<br><br />
'''Speed:''' 6 (8 while charging) <br />
|- class="even"<br />
| align="left" colspan="3" |<!--[[Image:Basic Melee.gif]], [[Image:Melee.gif]], [[Image:Ranged.gif]], [[Image:Close.gif]], [[Image:Area.gif]]--> [[Image:Basic Melee.gif]]'''Club''' (standard;at-will<!--[[Image:D6 (1).gif]], [[Image:D6 (2).gif]], [[Image:D6 (3).gif]], [[Image:D6 (4).gif]], [[Image:D6 (5).gif]], [[Image:D6 (6).gif]]-->)♦'''Weapon'''<br />
|- <br />
| align="left" colspan="3" | +9 vs. AC; 5 damage.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
<!--repeat as necassary--><br />
| align="left" colspan="3" |'''Alignment:''' Chaotic Evil '''Languages:''' Common, Giant<br><br />
|-class="even"<br />
| align="left" | '''Str:''' 16 (+3)<br>'''Con:''' 14 (+2) || align="left" | '''Dex:''' 10 (+0)<br>'''Int:''' 8 (-1) || align="left" |'''Wis:''' 10 (+0)<br>'''Cha:''' 9 (-1)<br />
|-<br />
| align="left" colspan="3" |'''Equipment:''' Hide Armor, Club<br />
|- <br />
|}<br />
<br />
Dice: [[Image:D6 (1).gif]], [[Image:D6 (2).gif]], [[Image:D6 (3).gif]], [[Image:D6 (4).gif]], [[Image:D6 (5).gif]], [[Image:D6 (6).gif]]<br><br />
Symbols: [[Image:Basic Melee.gif]], [[Image:Melee.gif]], [[Image:Ranged.gif]], [[Image:Close.gif]], [[Image:Area.gif]]<br />
<br />
== keep on the shadow fell ==<br />
<br />
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80204 [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 08:51, 12 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Dual Class Gesalt ==<br />
<br />
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=225268<br />
<br />
== Expert Advice ==<br />
<br />
I am creating a campaign and am borrowing a lot from Tolkien. However, I do not want my PCs to know. Can you please check on it (my campaign) and tell what is too obvious. Thanks. [[Simiran]]<br />
<br />
--[[User:Palantini|Palantini]] 23:53, 19 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Another stupid link. ==<br />
<br />
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227100 [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 04:06, 26 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Title Headers ==<br />
<br />
[[Image:Th Spider-Kind.png]]<br />
<br />
You would put this at the beggining of a Chapter.<br />
<br />
* Introduction<br />
* All About Spiderkind<br />
* Races<br />
* Classes<br />
* Feats<br />
* Powers<br />
* Equipment<br />
* Monsters<br />
* Campaigns<br />
<br />
These are the chapter headings. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 07:37, 26 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Barnstar ==<br />
<br />
{{Barnstar|I give you this Barnstar for not just taking the initiative to set up the framework for 4th edition material, but, also, populating it with your own ideas. Thank you. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 21:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
== Fell Beast ==<br />
<br />
Did a DnD search on the wiki =(. Turns out a fell beast already exists, undermining the purpose of a fell beast rider. Should I drop the whole thing? [[User:Palantini|Palantini]] 22:30, 11 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Demigod1 ==<br />
<br />
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1052235<br />
<br />
== Aasimar ==<br />
<br />
Ok so, just wanted to ask if you could look over the Aasimar, changed alot of stuff on it. Its now not as weak as it was and more interesting. I know theirs grammr and spelling to do but if you could check for the wording of the rules for me that would be great. Talk Later [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 03:53, 2 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Holiday ==<br />
<br />
I am going on holiday to france and will be back in two weeks. Au revoir! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:30, 18 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Have a great trip! Have fun. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 14:03, 18 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Enjoy! --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 20:59, 18 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Thanks. I'm back, had a good holiday. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:26, 3 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Clothen Master ==<br />
<br />
Hey i made a new 4e class called the clothen master and heard you are fairly familiar with 4e. I was hoping you could look over my class and maybe rate him or tell me what you think. Thanks --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 13:44, 15 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Admin Assistance ==<br />
Hello, I jumped the gun earlier and moved a page to its new home before realizing I hadn't been on the page I meant to move yet. If you could please delete [[Valgora]] so I can redirect correctly and not be a noob it would be much appreciated. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 13:44, 19 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Drider race (4th) ==<br />
<br />
Dear Sam,<br />
<br />
I've been looking over your Drider entry for 4th edition classes, and think you did some things right, but some things were a little off in terms of balance. I cut down the ability score to just a DEX and CHA because just giving the choice of any of the three physical ability bonuses makes the class overpowered, and we have yet to see another race in 4th that gives you that choice. Also, it made more since for the web power to restrain the foe, because that is what the normal drider does, but having the playable one only last for one round seems like more than enough to balance it out since the monster version lasts until a successful saving throw, not to mention the less range and standard action makes it equal to the drow's Darkfire power. I also changed the size entry to Large (Long) because that's how it was in 3.5 for large creatures that only had the reach of a medium creature, and the medium (Large) entry you put was a little confusing. I hope you'll consider these suggestions, as they shall help to make the playable drider well balanced and understandable.<br />
<br />
Signed,<br />
Manawolf<br />
<br />
== Delete the Following Please ==<br />
<br />
As I explained to you earlier today these articles are abandoned by myself as they are either redundant or I just don't have the energy or time to complete them. Thanks.<br />
<br />
<s>Elder Scrolls: Oblivion (DnD Campaign Setting)</s><br />
<s>Elder Scrolls Source Book (DnD Campaign Setting)</s><br />
<s>Ainador: The 'Holy Lands' (DnD Campaign Setting)</s><br />
<s>Eiraer: Breaking the Peace (DnD Campaign Setting)</s><br />
<s>ShadowyFigure/Loot The Room 1</s><br />
<s>ShadowyFigure/Loot The Room 2</s><br />
<s>Heroes Tome (4e Sourcebook)</s><br />
<s>Loot The Room (4e Sourcebook)</s><br />
<br />
Thanks again. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 19:28, 28 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Done. Let me know if you want any of it undeleting. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 02:47, 29 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::I just deleted all the pages which link to those pages as well (save [[Heroic Races (Heroic Power Chapter)]] - what do you want done with that page?). If you want any of them restored I am sure [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] or I would be more then happy to help. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 05:50, 29 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Hmm very very early early planning of ideas. ==<br />
<br />
What is our setting based around, what is the theme to be more specific?<br />
<br />
I’ve given this some thought and I had a few ideas that we could add to, expand ect. My main idea was born from the idea of the chromatic and metallic dragon born with two individual forces The Chromatic Dragonborns Empire and the kingdom of the metallic Dragonborn at continuous rule over one area of the world, ye they aren’t the only ones, humans are continuously fighting more and more for trade routes and resources as they begin to dwindle, the fighting between Elves and Drow are not so much in the background and Dwarves spend there days trying to protect there dwindling mountain fortresses from fallen under capture by the Giants.<br />
<br />
Everyone is stuck in a war, with no clear allies, and plenty of villains and evil creatures stirring things up, the idea is that adventurers are essentially mercenaries, where the army are more specialized in tactical well planned assaults and battlefield fighting some fights are better fought my smaller groups and so people from all sorts of background are called upon, often known to be adventurers to be these efficient small groups.<br />
<br />
Some of the wars aren’t even so open sure the Dragonborn are continuously leading assault against one another and the Drow and Elves are at each others throats over and underground but the wars between the humans are more discrete, often no actual men from the army will be used to take over resources but instead “Bandits” swords for hire and thugs will do the dirty work of the human leaders.<br />
<br />
I don’t know but it could turn out really awesome.<br />
<br />
[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:27, 7 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Nomination ==<br />
Hello, I've recently opened up a Request for Adminship for myself at [[Requests for Adminship/Hooper]], and as an admin yourself, would greatly appreciate your input, suggestions, thoughts, or general comments. Thanks.<br />
<br />
== Featured Articles==<br />
I was wondering if you knew who (if any one set person) had the authority to update our featured article on the main page. Its been static for quite a while and we've got a few nominated that seem to have a majority for FA status. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:42, 24 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] does. I have already asked him to look at my [[Elf, Variant (4e Race)|variant elf]] article, as I believe it to be ready to be FA, so I am just waiting to see his reply. You could ask him about featuring a new article if you want to hurry the process up. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:52, 24 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Ah, np. I just think we should set time limits for FAs so our mainpage doesn't appear static to occasional users. Thanks. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:54, 24 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::So if there isn't a new FA ready by the end of each month we recycle an old FA? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:56, 24 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::I'm not sure. Do we have a category or template that marks our old FAs, and how old are they? I think with community effort we would be able to have one ready each month. Maybe make a taskforce of a couple users to help make sure we do. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 09:04, 24 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::::On the main page, in the featured article section, there is a link ([[Featured Articles|all featured articles]]). They are there. As for how old they are; they are pre 4th ed (apart from the living dead one). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:08, 24 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
==Arcane/Arachane==<br />
I was working on creating the pages for most wanted categories and noticed the "4e Arachane Power" category. At first I thought this was a mistake and meant to be arcane so I began to change a few. Then I noticed they were all made by you and alot had to do with spiders, so maybe it was legit. Is Arachane the right way you wanted that spelled? If so I'll undo the few I changed. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:51, 29 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:The correct spelling is "Arachane", not "arcane". See [[Arachonomican; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)|the arachonomican]]. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:49, 29 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::I've just reverted the "arcane" to "arachane" changes; the pages should now be under the correct category. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 11:04, 29 December 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
==Children of Tulkas Bloodline==<br />
<br />
Hey Sam, I'd love to hear your thoughts on a bloodline I've created for my Eastern Middle-Earth setting. [[Children of Tulkas (DnD Bloodline)]]<br />
<br />
== TAVERN ==<br />
<br />
tavern[[User:79.68.180.108|79.68.180.108]] 15:32, 7 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
== You have a convert--I like spiders now. ==<br />
<br />
My word-processing program isn't MicrosoftWord, so I may have trouble printing out the final-version PDF unless I do it at work--but I want it! I admire the effort you've put into creating this sourcebook, and hope you have enjoyed creating it as I've had reading it.<br />
[[User:Wintersolace|Wintersolace]] 21:11, 27 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Thanks! I have enjoyed creating it, though it is really tiring. It should be completed by later today (possibly tomorrow), though the document will take longer. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:15, 28 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Just out of interest... What parts of the sourcebook converted you to liking spiders? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 11:23, 28 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
Well, except for real-life spiders and the Driders, which I think are terrifying to look at and even think about--ack. I lost my train of thought. Anyway, your care and determination for your project shows, and so it allows the (un)natural charm of the Spydrics and Drow to shine through. I don't get to play D&D very often, and frankly am quite bad at it on anything but a theoretical level (creating characters, backstories, etc.), but I'm anticipating with glee playing my first Spydric. I really dig the Spydrics, but can't decide which class to start with. PH2 will only serve to make the choice more difficult, I suppose.[[User:Wintersolace|Wintersolace]] 16:21, 28 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Deletion and discussion pages. ==<br />
<br />
Please actually see and make a note on the discussion page of such a hot topic as [[Hunted (DnD Flaw)]] before removing delete templates willy-nilly. Thanks. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:22, 11 March 2009 (MDT) <br />
<br />
:To respond to an unsaid comment that I'm sure you or someone else is thinking: The reason it has the delete template is twofold. First, I honestly believe that it is unfixable. Should someone do the impossible and make it work mechanically, the delete template could surely be removed. Secondly, the only way it gets any attention in the first place is with the template. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:55, 11 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Ok. I'm just glad work is going into it so it can be fixed. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:38, 11 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== 4e Classes ==<br />
<br />
I'm a bit new to what is and isn't allowed to be published to the wiki in terms of published information from WOTC. Is there a reason why there are is no 4e SRD information on 4e classes, races, etc?<br />
<br />
:I was in the neighborhood, and thought I'd drop by to answer. Nothing from any published WotC books can be put on this site. Variant of things can be made, but they must be identifiably homebrewed, and not just copy-pasted from a 4e sourcebook in anyway. The reason there isn't a 4e SRD is because WotC hasn't realeased any 4e content under the OGL, so none of the 4e content is OGC. Hope that helps. -[[User:Valentine the Rogue|Valentine the Rogue]] 22:59, 1 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::That explains it. I'll have to wait for them to publish that stuff under a license that allows publishing here. I've got it all wiki'd up on my personal D&D group's private wiki so migration would be pretty easy. Thanks for the response. [[User:Lacitpo|Lacitpo]] 00:09, 3 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: There never going to release stuff under OGL as they have a new liscence now for 4e. 05:42, 3 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Drider ==<br />
<br />
Ok i understand im sorry but wouldnt it make more sense to have them get a bonus to intimidate and not stealth. {{Unsigned|Treehugger|10:33, 4 April 2009 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:It would, but I don't think it would be balanced for it to have both ''and'' four languages. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:37, 4 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== AdminBadge ==<br />
<br />
I'd like to label you as an admin with the [[Template:AdminBadge]] on your user page. If you have a reason you don't think you should have the badge or you don't think the badge is a good idea, please discuss it on the badge's [[Template talk:AdminBadge|discussion]]. -[[User:Valentine the Rogue|Valentine the Rogue]] 16:07, 11 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Recent Deletions ==<br />
<br />
I swear I did not mean the recent deletion of Category:British Users like that. I just wanted to make it work within [[:Category:Classifieds]] and did not want to spend the time to fix it (so I thought if I added [[Template:Delete]] to it then you would take the time to fix it). However I did end up spending the time to fix it in any case, and I am sorry if you got confused or something. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 06:57, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Important Message ==<br />
<br />
I have thigns to talk to you about the direction of the campaign setting, do not post any other things on the wiki yet until we have spoken. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:20, 20 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Regarding Balance ==<br />
<br />
Yesterday, on the phone we talked about the Swordmage and the Sorcerer. I've noticed you seem to want to make alot of class feature variant instead of actually using a function already built in to D&D 4th Edition designed to allow slight customizations such as the ones you wanted. You want to be able to wield a sword as a Sorcerer, heck any arcane class. And this could easily be done with a feat instead of class feature variants.<br />
<br />
For example,<br />
<br />
====Arcane Blade Implement====<br />
<br />
'''Prerequisites:''' ''Arcane'' Class<br><br />
'''Benefit:''' Choose one heavy or light blade weapon. You may use this weapon as an implement for you arcane powers.<br />
<br />
Not everything has to be occomplished with class feature variants. <br />
<br />
I will be busy next few days, so won't availble on the phone, but will try get the drow file to you asap. Also I was wandering fi possible could you convert my dragonborn file into wiki, I;ve been so bsuy revising lately and I suck with wiki code as it is, it would speed up the process of getting things up on the wiki to be balanced for AoW setting. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 17:24, 20 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I had actually considered that option- but I didn't like the fact that it would take three feats... A proficiency feat, a [new] feat to allow blades as implements, and a variant of sorcerous blade channeling. That said, I don't think it would take three feats- as "arcane blade implement" would probably need proficiency to be worth taking, and there are several feats that grant proficiency ''and'' another benefit, we might be able to get away with both proficiency and implementyness... so long as we are careful. I've just attempted it myself- [[Arcane Blade Implement (4e Feat)|here]]. I've put both our names on it. Have a look to see if you think it works. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:02, 25 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Spiderspeak ==<br />
<br />
Hey, I was just looking over the spider rider class for 4th edition, and I noticed that the spider mount can speak any languages that you can... I just though, wouldn't it make more sense if they could only speak spydric, and use the rider as a mouthpiece to speak other languages? I mean, its already been stated that the rider and spider share an empathic/telepathic bond, so wouldn't this possibly add to the overall creepiness and realism of the class? It just seems like it would be very awkward if not impossible for a theraphosid to speak, say, elven with its inhuman mouthparts. Kthx. --[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 13:25, 24 April 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:You have a good point, but I'm going to leave it as it is for several reasons:<br />
:* You could already do what you are suggesting... the class feature doesn't prevent it.<br />
:* It's also creepy for the spider to speak common. Look at Aragog from ''Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets'' and the spiders from ''The Hobbit''.<br />
:* It is a ''magical'' spider (or "arachanically" enhanced spider), so strange things like the ability to speak make sense.<br />
:* I'm personally a fan of spiders that can speak- it gives a kind of humanity to an otherwise inhuman creature, and, when you consider good riders, the spider may need some humanity.<br />
:* It allows the spider to join in on conversations, which, when used for the first time, can make the other characters quite shocked.<br />
:Essentially, there are many ways to play the class feature- you could do what you suggest, and ignore the spider's ability to speak common, etc., or you could allow the spider to speak, using an "Aragog" voice for its speach (or even recording some of the "Aragog" lines on a dictaphone to be played in the game), or play it in any number of ways- by leaving it I encourage diversity in a class that is difficult to roleplay in diverse ways. But anyway, thanks for pointing that out; it was an aspect to the spider rider I had not yet considered; the possibility of using the spider's speach to roleplay the class differently. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:16, 25 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Sauce ==<br />
<br />
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1165944<br />
<br />
== Nacatl Leonin ==<br />
<br />
I believe Arshan272 may have hijacked someones creation. He has edited and moved Hanzo187's "Lion-Men" to [[Nacatl Leonin (4e Race)|Nacatl Leonin]]. Could you please look into this, as I believe he may be planning to do more as he builds his various 4e Classes. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 08:55, 3 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:He'd made the same changes earlier (and I reverted them)! I have looked into it, and I agree with you- I think he has hijacked the page. I have reverted the edits, and asked him to ask the authors of articles before making more such changes. Thanks for thge heads-up! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:25, 3 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Channel Arcanity SPontaneous Wizardry. ==<br />
<br />
http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/04/30/new-4e-house-rule-channel-arcanity/<br />
<br />
Happy Birthday yopu sexy dice fiend [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:41, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Eragon Elves ==<br />
<br />
I would like to know more about your theory about the elves in Eragon. I have read the books, and have a couple of my own.<br />
<br />
Please send any info to ianmb618@yahoo.com<br />
<br />
An American LotR "Fan"atic<br />
<br />
== 4th Edition, Custom Weapons. Point Buy system. ==<br />
<br />
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18599956#post18599956<br />
<br />
Tried it out and this is balanced and works [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 07:44, 19 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Spellcasting Roll ==<br />
<br />
Salutations! How has your system for a spellcasting roll worked out? I've been considering adding one to my houserules and my initial idea is almost identical to yours, even including a system of trading spell slots for counterspells. One thing I am considering doing is granting low-level players a few extra spells to compensate for missed rolls. --R<br />
<br />
:On the whole, I have found that it works quite well, especially when combined with spell points. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 07:04, 30 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== So... Coool ==<br />
<br />
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/49936.html [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:43, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Hey again... ==<br />
<br />
Sorry to bother you constantly about little things, but there seems to be a serious deficiency in spider feats for certain families of spiderkind, particularly Ctenidae, the wandering spiders.<br />
Could you possibly design a few more, because most of the feats are completely centred on Theraphosidae, Lycosidae and Salticidae. Can we have some to show the agressiveness and power of these spiders? Maybe more poison based attacks to reflect the most famous family of Ctenidae, the genus Phoneutria, which contains the brazillian wandering spider. Its one of the world's most dangerous spiders, purely because of its strong poison and willingness to attack creatures far larger than itself, and currently it's stuck with increased tremorsense... and thats all...<br />
<br />
I wouldn't nag like this, but my next character is going to be a spider rider, and from the background I've formulated, she would have to ride some form of wolf spider or wandering spider for roleplay purposes, which are both pretty much devoid of feats (one each I think, when Theraphosa have four)<br />
(Edit:Essentially, make Ctenidae a viable option for a brutal rider. Hell, I'll make the feats myself if you don't have the time and give me permission, once my exams are over. I'm thinking a cumulative ongoing poison damage for spider's bite attack, or some kind of frenzy like power, attacking very fast, etc.)--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 22:23, 03 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:Ctenidae feats come under Lycosidae (lycosidae is the super family). The Ctenidae feat you are thinking of is a Ctenizidae feat (I actually spelt the name wrong, so that's actually my fault. oops.)&mdash; that's trapdoor spiders. AS for lycosidae; there are actually four lycosidae feats (that's wolf spiders; it also encompasses Ctenidae, such as the brazillian wandering spider). For wolf spiders and wandering spiders, you have the following feats: [[Lycosidae Aspect (4e Feat)|Lycosidae Aspect]], [[Lycosid Speed (4e Feat)|Lycosid Speed]], [[Lycosid Precision (4e Feat)|Lycosid Precision]] and [[Perfect Accuracy (4e Feat)|Perfect Accuracy]]. Feel free to make more yourself, if you want.<br />
:Good luck on the spider rider, and let me know how it turns out. May the great web entangle your prey. --&nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid; -moz-border<br />
radius:10px">[[Image:SamAutosig.JPG]]'''[[User:Sam Kay|<span style="-moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Sam Kay </span>''']][[User talk:Sam Kay|<span style=" -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Sam Kay|<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Sam Kay|<span style=" -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 02:40, 4 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:: You misses out a bit Sam, it may the great web entangle your prey, and impregnate them with spider so they explode! [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 03:10, 4 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=User:ShadowyFigure/Age_of_War_Campaign_Setting_Sandbox&diff=365640User:ShadowyFigure/Age of War Campaign Setting Sandbox2009-06-04T07:50:00Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Human, Variant ==<br />
'''''Of Kingdoms, and Empires...'''''<br />
<br />
{{Template:4e Racial Traits<br />
|height=5'6" - 6'2"<br />
|weight=135lb - 220lb<br />
|abilities= +2 to any one ability score.<br />
|size=Medium<br />
|speed=6<br />
|vision= Normal<br />
|languages=[[4e Index (4e Other)#Languages|Common]], and one other.<br />
|skills=+2 to any two choices.<br />
|trait1=Bonus Feat<br />
|description1=You gain a bonus feat at 1st level. <br />
|trait2= Bonus At-Will Power<br />
|description2=You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class. <br />
|trait3=Human Instinct<br />
|description3=You gain a +2 racial bonus to Fortitude, Reflex or Will Defence.<br />
|trait4=Human Adaption<br />
|description4=You can choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class.<br />
}}</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Spider_Rider_(4e_Class)&diff=365630Talk:Spider Rider (4e Class)2009-06-04T06:47:56Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Lances */</p>
<hr />
<div>==This really should be a Paragon Path==<br />
<br />
My main beef with this as a base class is the same as 3e druid at level 1: the player effectively gets 2 moves a round. This has a big problem in terms of game balance. Secondly, serving Lolth/Arachne doesn't fit with the point of base classes (generality and options), it's just too specific, and dare I say it, ''too'' flavoursome. Shrink is probably too powerful. You can use it as the ultimate scout. 1-2 step is better.<br />
Aside: I saw ''Ghost in the Shell 2nd GiG'' the other day, and the class reminds me of the ''tachikoma'' a lot. I do like the flavour but not the mechanics. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 21:34, 4 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:First thing; this was a pre-emtive attempt at class design (the riding rules actually prevent you from making two moves a turn, and I'm re-writing it anyway), and secondly, I don't want it to be a paragon path because of the 10 level wait, and because the way paragon paths work it woudn't really work... The class is basically designed as a base class for people who want strong theme to their character rather than a generical thing like the fighter. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:59, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::And antother thing: mounted combat has changed loads in 4e. Now the rider and his mount share actions between them rather than having a turn each. So your "main beef" is no problem at all! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:44, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Druids don't have mounted combat at level 1 (unless you're small), so I don't know where you're getting that impression from. A level 1 druid has an animal companion which takes orders (i.e. tricks). Same here. No rules say you ''must'' ride in combat, so you can bark orders to the spider (and the spider understands!) and get two moves. Even if they move on the same initiative, that's still big. Haven't checked the familiars section. I would expect the rules would be same in that sense. <br />
:::On another note, you said it wouldn't work as PP. Please explain? --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 19:51, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::PPs are too small to fit in everything I would like to. PPs can only be taken at 11th level, so if you wanted to be a spider rider you'd have to wait 10 levels, PPs are only supposed to be a tiny part of your character's identity, there is currently no class I can see taking a spider rider PP. I can't really do themed powers the way I'd like to. You would not be able to play a 1st level spider rider. The list goes on. I like PPs, but I'd rather have this as a class.<br />
::::I've sorted the two rounds thing; firstly all but the at-will rider powers are based around the riding consept, and so now you simply cannot use them unless mounted (it makes some sense; how do you do a mounted overrun on foot?). So if you want to use you powers (and adequacy in 4e relys on powers), you need to be mounted. Problem sorted!<br />
::::Druids don't actually exist in 4e yet, and neither do familliars.--[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:56, 6 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did an excellent job of making something potentially overpowered very well balanced. However, i think this class is a bit overpowered because of the rider/mound versatility and potential loopholes from this versatility (for example, being able to see through your mounds eyes at all times could get abused) --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording is both complete and fluent --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is standard and complete --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because i cant give it a six --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
This is a very well made and from what i can tell complete class. My only suggestion would be add some variation to the spider riders attack powers, they all seem similar with small differences, especially at level 1. --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Beastmaster? ==<br />
<br />
This looks very similar to the Beast Companion class feature in Martial Power. Maybe the spider rider's mount could follow the same rules, instead of having to finagle new ones? --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 15:59, 31 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<this powerful class is very well balanced.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is good and fluent.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' 5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is amazing.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Lances==<br />
Given that this is a mounted class, shouldn't they really start with lance proficiency?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 13:22, 31 May 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:It was supposed to. There wasn't a set of rules for lances, so it got longspear prof instead. I have made rules for lances, I just forgot to make the change. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:28, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Ok, thanks =D Also, what about spidersilk armor?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 21:36, 03 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:: Look [[Equipment (Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind Chapter)|here.]] [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 00:47, 4 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Spider_Rider_(4e_Class)&diff=365629Talk:Spider Rider (4e Class)2009-06-04T06:46:59Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Lances */</p>
<hr />
<div>==This really should be a Paragon Path==<br />
<br />
My main beef with this as a base class is the same as 3e druid at level 1: the player effectively gets 2 moves a round. This has a big problem in terms of game balance. Secondly, serving Lolth/Arachne doesn't fit with the point of base classes (generality and options), it's just too specific, and dare I say it, ''too'' flavoursome. Shrink is probably too powerful. You can use it as the ultimate scout. 1-2 step is better.<br />
Aside: I saw ''Ghost in the Shell 2nd GiG'' the other day, and the class reminds me of the ''tachikoma'' a lot. I do like the flavour but not the mechanics. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 21:34, 4 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:First thing; this was a pre-emtive attempt at class design (the riding rules actually prevent you from making two moves a turn, and I'm re-writing it anyway), and secondly, I don't want it to be a paragon path because of the 10 level wait, and because the way paragon paths work it woudn't really work... The class is basically designed as a base class for people who want strong theme to their character rather than a generical thing like the fighter. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:59, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::And antother thing: mounted combat has changed loads in 4e. Now the rider and his mount share actions between them rather than having a turn each. So your "main beef" is no problem at all! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 08:44, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Druids don't have mounted combat at level 1 (unless you're small), so I don't know where you're getting that impression from. A level 1 druid has an animal companion which takes orders (i.e. tricks). Same here. No rules say you ''must'' ride in combat, so you can bark orders to the spider (and the spider understands!) and get two moves. Even if they move on the same initiative, that's still big. Haven't checked the familiars section. I would expect the rules would be same in that sense. <br />
:::On another note, you said it wouldn't work as PP. Please explain? --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 19:51, 5 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::PPs are too small to fit in everything I would like to. PPs can only be taken at 11th level, so if you wanted to be a spider rider you'd have to wait 10 levels, PPs are only supposed to be a tiny part of your character's identity, there is currently no class I can see taking a spider rider PP. I can't really do themed powers the way I'd like to. You would not be able to play a 1st level spider rider. The list goes on. I like PPs, but I'd rather have this as a class.<br />
::::I've sorted the two rounds thing; firstly all but the at-will rider powers are based around the riding consept, and so now you simply cannot use them unless mounted (it makes some sense; how do you do a mounted overrun on foot?). So if you want to use you powers (and adequacy in 4e relys on powers), you need to be mounted. Problem sorted!<br />
::::Druids don't actually exist in 4e yet, and neither do familliars.--[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:56, 6 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did an excellent job of making something potentially overpowered very well balanced. However, i think this class is a bit overpowered because of the rider/mound versatility and potential loopholes from this versatility (for example, being able to see through your mounds eyes at all times could get abused) --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording is both complete and fluent --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is standard and complete --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because i cant give it a six --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
This is a very well made and from what i can tell complete class. My only suggestion would be add some variation to the spider riders attack powers, they all seem similar with small differences, especially at level 1. --[[User:Shadow Dragon|Shadow Dragon]] 12:07, 11 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Beastmaster? ==<br />
<br />
This looks very similar to the Beast Companion class feature in Martial Power. Maybe the spider rider's mount could follow the same rules, instead of having to finagle new ones? --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 15:59, 31 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<this powerful class is very well balanced.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is good and fluent.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' 5>>> out of 5 because <<<It is amazing.>>> --[[User:Mordzort|Mordzort]] 19:01, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Lances==<br />
Given that this is a mounted class, shouldn't they really start with lance proficiency?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 13:22, 31 May 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:It was supposed to. There wasn't a set of rules for lances, so it got longspear prof instead. I have made rules for lances, I just forgot to make the change. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:28, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Ok, thanks =D Also, what about spidersilk armor?<br />
--[[User:Redgaia|Redgaia]] 21:36, 03 June 2009 (GMT)<br />
<br />
:: Look [[Equipment (Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind Chapter)|here.]]</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Orc,_Variant_(4e_Racial_Trait_Variant)&diff=365628Talk:Orc, Variant (4e Racial Trait Variant)2009-06-04T06:45:10Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>=== Up For Adoption ===<br />
<br />
Anyone who is interested may feel free to adopt this page, this race was going to be part of the Age of War Players Guide, but now due to some changes in planning and fluff I descided it won't be nescesarry. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 04:31, 23 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Isn't there already an orc? ==<br />
<br />
Is this like a variant or something? [[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 17:50, 24 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: NO, theirs an npc stat block in the back of the MM. Not a PC race, how about ylou actually contribute to the wiki insteead of question everyones creations. 03:16, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Maybe you should focus a little more on your spelling and grammer. [[User:Aboleth11|Aboleth11]] 08:50, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: Look just drop it. Stop questioning the why behind my creations, because quite simply it bugs me, I created orcs as a pc race, because their wasn't one before. And their isn't a official one. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 10:24, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== June 3rd Modification ==<br />
<br />
I'm new to this so i hope this is the right spot, and that i didn't royally screw anyone's work.<br />
<br />
Anyways I've had some experience with orcs, My Group attacked an orcish tribe and Theirs a Half-Orc in my group.<br />
<br />
The Monster Manual has an Orc in its Racial Trait, that says "This information can also be used as guidelines for creating player character (PC) versions of these creatures, within reason." so normally i'd just say take that and run with it, as have the other DMs I've got in my circle of friends and extended friends. <br />
<br />
As well since it seems that Drow, Shifters, and even in some way Gnoll were already like 85% pre-created base so their isn't much to do other then chuck some lore on top of it. So i tried my best to make the Orc seem as Orc from D&D not orc from LOTR as was originally placed here... apparently in D&D the Grummsh guy got screwed over in a game to deside who's race went where, and the Orc hate the elven so much because the god that created the original elvish stabbed Grummsh in the eye ><''<br />
<br />
Please edit this, i'm not 'Adopting' this but i did feel that this wasn't a true reflection of the orcs and as such changed it in a way that would be more in that manner.<br />
<br />
Once again sorry for any screw ups.<br />
<br />
//[[User:Silvo|Silvo]]<br />
<br />
: The reason they where more like Tolkien orcs is as it was origanly going to be place in a campaign setting I am building with someone, where some of the more traditional fantasy creatures, so Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Orcs ect are like their Tolkien counter parts. This is due to the fact my partner in the project is Tolkien nut job. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 00:45, 4 June 2009 (MDT) Oh and the PC blocks in the back of the monster can go both ways, some are overpowered, others are underpowered.</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hill_Giant_(4e_Race)&diff=365473Talk:Hill Giant (4e Race)2009-06-03T19:14:34Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>==A Few Things==<br />
*'''Size:''' No 4e PC Race can be ''Large'', it is highly unbalancing when it comes to things like ''Burst'' areas and ''Weapon Reach'' just to name a few. <br />
*'''Large:''' You should never include a penalty in racial traits, as well the shift in improvised weapon damage seems odd. This entire trait should be rethought and rewritten.<br />
*'''Crush Underfoot:''' This is a bad power. Being only able to effect ''Small'' creatures, and then doing way to much damage. This power could easily disrupt any encounter (particularly if its against a ''Solo'' who happens to be ''Small'', no more little "boss" villians). It to needs to be rethought and rewritten.<br />
Overall I think your trying to convert a monster (ie. ''Hill Giant'') into a race that just won't work. Giants have too many qualities that unbalance them for PC use. Thank you for your time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 16:19, 10 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Comment from the Author:''' <br />
<br />
In Your comment on Large I realize that I can't include, but this is basically "Being Large", as in, "Being Small" for gnomes and halflings. I also disagree with you on races not being Large, only medium or small. I agree they take up space, but I would probably allow it as a GM. And why would it have anything to do with burst?<br />
<br />
I will rethink Crush Underfoot... trying to not make it overpowered. Any suggestions?<br />
<br />
Absconder, the author<br />
<br />
== Response ==<br />
<br />
A ''Large'' creature occupies 4 squares. A standard ''Close Burst'' 2 effects 25 squares, with a ''Large'' creature this increases to 64 squares...a bit overpowered at a basic level. The problems with ''Large'' PC Races is so numerous I could fill pages with the examples of how broken it is. And as said ''Large'' is explicitly against design standards for 4e Races (as well as using it to explain a penalty...penalties are another huge no no). So no matter how you fluff it, if it stays then this article needs the "Design Disclaimer". <br />
<br />
As far as ''Crush Underfoot'', well frankly its kinda dull, I would dump it, and create another power that does less damage and maybe causes a ''Condition''. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 20:35, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Your numbers are off. A standard close burst 2 effects 25 squares, but only 24 if you remove the square the person is taking up. A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32. That's an 8 square difference, true, but the large size brings with it a ton of drawbacks with its wide area. Just because WOTC hasn't done something, doesn't mean it's WRONG. There's no reason to forbid penalties just because WOTC has. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:53, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Ah yes my math was off, so it only adds 16 squares...so its just really unbalanced, not horribly unbalanced. And as I said if the author wishes to include racial penalties and a Large size they can, but they are expressly forbidden in standard 4e design. Those are several of the things the rules were not designed to handle (like unlimited Heroic level flight). If they are used a DM will need to make further modifications as the game progresses to attempt to balance it (which will be hard given the rule set excludes those things and there will not be allowances for them). If these blatant balance issues are not brought into line then this article will need the "Design Disclaimer", it was created to warn potential users that a creation is not unbalanced out of ignorance (the design & developers guides are published every month), but out of choice. So yes it can be done, but the creation will remain unbalanced. This is 4e and when "WotC hasn't done something", you need to look into the reason...don't assume they missed something or are wrong. In this incidence, these issues are not only without precidence but they are specifically stated as being things never ever ever done with a race. Just notice the complete and total lack of large races, and the complete and total lack of racial penalties amongst the official races....this wasn't an oversight, and they have specifically said so. So in these particular areas the reason WotC hasn't done them is because they are "WRONG". -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::You seem to have your math wrong with those squares... again. And again, you can't just say "It's wrong because WOTC says so". You talk about the reason, but don't actually give what it is. If the DM is willing to allow larger than usual corridors to always make room for a giant (or, indeed, be able to use smaller ones to punish them) that removes it as a problem. Not everything has to be for every game. WOTC hasn't done a lot of stuff - there was no +Con +Int race in the PHB, but that doesn't mean if you make one you're automatically wrong. It's a better question to ask WHY racial penalties don't exist (hint: it's because they're pretty much meaningless) or why large creatures don't exist (it's because they won't fit in all games, which is OK if the DM does want him for his game.) [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 14:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::You keep missing the point. It isn't a matter of just using it and saying "its balanced because DMs can deal with it", that dosen't balance something. The fact is Large sized PC races are expressly against 4e design, so nothing official will ever support that trait therefore if this article keeps the Large size it must use the "Design Disclaimer" (warning DMs they will need to make adjustments)...that is all. Nothing says for any reason this can't be done, it just can't claim to be balanced. As for the math I think you are quibbling over a small amount at best...don't nitpick to derail the point, it covers more area then is covered by *any* other race, the plain fact. And thats only one of the problems that is caused because the rules don't account for Large PCs. Again I have no problem with a race being Large (although that seems to be this races "one note"), it just needs to use the disclaimer if it intends to remain unbalanced. No one is saying the author is wrong, we just want to be sure the author understood something (ie. intentionally building a article that requires internal balancing to work in someones game), and that when this is done you either change it or add the Disclaimer. We are trying to maintain a library of well designed and balanced articles for users, not just a place were people can twist core rules and pretend that it all is ok (causing all content to be suspect). If something goes outside the design guidelines it needs to be noted. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 15:33, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::You keep missing my point. If something requires a "Design Disclaimer", stating that it's only good in certain campaigns, that does NOT mean it's unbalanced. It's only for certain campaigns. There's a huge, huge difference. And yes, it does cover more area, but that had both strengths and weaknesses that can be balanced together. You keep using the word unbalanced when it really, really doesn't apply. Is the race overly strong compared to other races? Is it overly weak? If not, it is not unbalanced. It doesn't require internal "balancing" - it's not like you need to specifically use this race's strength or weakness. It requires accommodation. That's a huge difference. I'm not saying large isn't unbalanced - I'm not coming down one way or the other. I'm just saying that your reasoning is faulty. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:25, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Well this is actually both. Large size races are expressly forbidden in the design standards of 4e, and its used "only for certain campaigns" (bad idea...all creations should appeal to as many gamers as possible, otherwise its going to be a passing fad). And I have a feeling you do not understand the 4e usage of the term "unbalanced". In 4e "unbalanced" means when compared to other articles of the same type (monsters, races, items, etc.) they must be on equal footing with each other (so no race should be inherently weaker or stronger then any other). If they are not on equal footing they are called "unbalanced" (this usage of the term is used so often by the designers it is sickening) if it was just bad mechanics it would be called "broken". So yes giving a race Large size, when no other race has the same trait (that is occupying more then one square) it is "unbalanced", and it requires DMs to make corrections in other rules as they go along (or as they say in 4e "requires internal balancing") these are polite terms that aptly describe the situations. I didn't invent the usage, this has been in effect since 4e first was released. I'm sorry if you missed it, and are confused by the use, but it is proper. If something requires "accomodation" in 4e it is considered "unbalanced" (there is no difference at all). But as I said I have no care either way, but if this is going to use a trait that goes directly against design standards, then it will need the "Design Disclaimer". Frankly this has become a pointless disscussion, I have no need to try and explain every thought...nor will I. If you want read the designer's blogs and the design/development logs and maybe it will be clearer. It is now up to the author to decide what he wants to do, either way this article needs to be completed, so we can all move on. Thank you for the spirited discussion, but I fear we have reached an impass, it now lies with the author to make some final decisions. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:30, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
BTW, here is what the template looks like...as you can see it says nothing about being good only in certain campaigns, just that the standard rules may not work with parts of the article.<br />
<br />
{{Design Disclaimer|4e}}<br />
<br />
:::::::All creations should appeal to as many people as possible?! What?! What?! No! All creations should be usable and balanced in the game they're set in. If I want to include hobgoblins as a playable race in my game, and other people think they should be evil creations only, I shouldn't have to put some fucking disclaimer on my page saying it's "potentially unbalanced". That's honestly what you're suggesting, and it's bullshit. Let's use the words to mean what they actually MEAN, ok? Something that's unbalanced is not balanced compared to other things of its level. Something that's broken is BROKEN - it doesn't work, or grinds the game to a screeching halt. It is not unbalanced - it does not make the race too strong or too weak <i>by itself</i>. You keep stating this as if it was fact, and the only proof you offer is "No other race does this, and the 4e designers haven't done it yet.". You say that it requires correction in the rules - what rules? Note that "The campaign style happens to accommodate large characters" is not a correction in the rules. Give an example of houserules a 4e DM would have to make. If you want to make claims and not be called on them, don't make them. If you don't want to have to explain your reasoning, don't share your thoughts. If you want to keep citing these blogs - <i>link them</i>. In other words, I'm calling a big-ass "CITE?" to you. You keep saying it's unbalanced. Prove it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:27, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::As I said it is all right there for everyone to see it is far from hidden (In fact I made a Thread about this race on the forums to help with this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330). But as now that you have started swearing, and contiunue to YELL, this conversation ends. You are now just being ignorant and rude, and I don't need to deal with morons. If you want to argue instead of discuss...then please leave. I'm done with you and your attitude. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 07:39, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::This is how it works. You make an argument, you back it up. You don't back it up, nobody listens to you. I could very well say that being Large is totally balanced, because I said so, and that's just as valid as your argument. I'm not even saying it's balanced - I haven't actually come down either way. YOU'RE the one with the attitude, expecting others to automatically listen whenever you say something, and then cry and whine when you don't get your way. A discussion involves actually DISCUSSING, and if you don't want people to call you on what you say, don't post to discussion threads. I'm sorry if not accepting you as lord god of D&D makes me a "moron". [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:51, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::There is no need to look through thousands of blog entries, you just use the precedence set by every other single rsce they have released. Notice there are no Large PC Races even Large monsters given PC stats (ie. the Minotaur) are resized to Medium. Gee wonder if everyone at WotC missed something...or maybe they did say what I said they did, and have made they conscious decision not to include them because PC rules and powers are not designed to use a Large size (Monsters and PC Races are not written in an exchanable format like 3e anymore). If you don't have time to read (like I don't have time to teach you 4e design) use logic and listen to those who have read the material. I gain nor lose by anyone listening to me. I try to guide people in creating articles that are fun for everyone to use and that is all. I could care less what an author does with their creation, but everything posted reflects on the entire community and yes I hate to be made to look stupid because someone else dosen't understand a basic 4e design element. So far you have put forth no proof that you are right in any way. Nothing is backed up at all. Hit the blogs and post the question, they will answer in very short order. Find out...don't sit in your own world and think you figured out something better minds then yours already determined. And no your a complete and utter moron because you aren't even willing to try and learn, and you use foul language to try and win a fight. Well enjoy, but this is it. I will never be responding to you again, as you have proven you aren't even close enough to being worthy of my (or anyones really) time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:32, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::For swearing and being rude above both [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] and [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] acquire a warning each. It's not too serious though; three warnings result in a one week ban however hopefully that will not be the case. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:33, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Damage==<br />
<br />
Crush Underfoot is incredibly powerful, a 3d10 attack at level 1. That is more powerful than the level 13 brute Hill Giant in the MM (which has a 1d10+5 attack and a 2d6+5 attack). I'd suggest a 1d10/2d10/3d10 progression for 1st/11th/21st levels. [[User:Pdboddy|Pdboddy]] 13:40, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Balance ==<br />
<br />
<br />
* Large sized is ok, you take up more room, and the hill giants lack of racial traits kinda balances out with the higher damage with weapons, maybe however decrease the speed to 5? <br />
* The racial power is very powerful, I think maybe if you took a apporach simmilar to that of the Dragonborns Dragonbreath this could be easily balanced.<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Crush Underfoot<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Giant<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=The goblin screamed as you brought your foot up. He got so annoying you decided to put your foot down. Right on top of him.<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|range=Meelee<br />
|target=One Medium or smaller creature.<br />
|attack=Strength +2<br />
|defense=Reflex<br />
|hit=1d8 + Strength Modifier damage.<br />
|extra= Increase to +4 and 2d8 + Strength Modifier damage at 11th level, and +5 and 3d8 + Strength Modifier Damage.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
:???...So a miss can cause more damage then a hit? I don't think the to-hit bonus should scale (they will have high strengths already, which will increase as they level), and if it must then +3 at ''Paragon'' and +4 at ''Epic''. But with the strength scores being what they will it is overkill. Overall this is still a kinda dull racial power, what if the target and all creatures within a Close Burst 1 (except for the PC) were knocked Prone? This might make it more intresting and at least a little usable by Ranged classes. As for the "Large" size; nothing done at this level will allow that trait to be balanced, the rest of the rule set for PCs is not designed to incorporate it...it will bring only headaches to DMs not properly prepared to deal with it. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:59, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: Sorry, I fail to see what your problem with the Large Size is, it doesn't really effect anything par the damage of weapons and the close burst. Also not all racial powers are meant to be useful for every single class, your point on the +2 bonus doesn't really stand either, the Dragonborn gets Strength +2 VS. Reflex, yet the three classes given as examples and favored classes of the dragonborn will mean they have a high strength bonus.I meant to drop the miss bit.<br />
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::Its not "my" problem with Large size, its the designers. They feel it is unbalancing therefore they have said no PC races will be Large. That given, it means nothing that is published will ever account for a Large sized PC, requiring DM modification to include. Now as I said the author can leave it, but it is unbalanced, no way around it. Therefore if it stays this article just needs to add the "Design Disclaimer" template to it and that is all. As for the power, well the Dragonborn power is an AoE that effects all creatures (friend and foe), so the tactical issue that comes in play is the fact your going to most likely hit what you breath at, even if its an ally. An attack directed at a single foe dosen't have this issue, and should not be as accurate (or scale slower). Of course if it had a wider effect (such as what I suggested) leaving the high to-hit would be fine. Lastly official racial powers are designed to be useful for all classes. Racial powers should not "pigeon-hole" a Player into a specific role. Really look at all the official racial powers and think about how a melee or ranged character would use it. If you find one that is truely limited to one type please show me, so far they all are equally useable by both types of classes. Now HB racial powers may do this because sometimes a race is just too narrow to be much more then one type or the other, and while WotC would just not create the race, one of your Players may want to play it...so it gets made. Nothing wrong there, just in the spirit it is nice to see racial powers that everyone can enjoy. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 08:08, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: Sorry if I came of a bit snarky, it was not meant to be an attack, I didn't realise they had said this about large races however. and i do see what you mean by racial powers[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:27, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Thats ok, I'm sure I sounded snarky myself. No offense was ever intended, so lets move on. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 12:43, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
=Author=<br />
<br />
:Thank you all, I read through all the comments, and am working on some ideas to improve this race. Sepsis, I still think it's possible to make homebrew rules for Large, so I will not change that... not that I don't see your point. I realize it's against standards, but as a DM, I'll make my own homebrew rules and it should be fine for the purposes of my adventures. I'm working on a couple different ways to make Crush Underfoot less powerful... I should have whipped something up by this time next week! Thanks for your input -- [[User:Absconder|Absconder]]<br />
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::You may want to keep an eye on these Threads: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330 -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 13:55, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::The WOTC boards of places of scum and stupidity. If an actual argument can be made, it can be posted here. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:54, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Wow that answers a lot, an ignorant rant boy. Now I see, another..."I'm smarter then the designers, those morons." type guy. So your opinions really are completly worthless. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:35, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::OK that was just plain rude on my part. I have got to apologize. This is why I hate internet "arguments". I let myself get too angry with you. I should just take a deep breath. I'm willing to disagree, but I shouldn't drop down to the level of insults and such. We don't have to like each other, but we also don't have to resort to mudslinging. Again I am sorry for just being insulting that is beneath me, and I hate to think I would be lumped in that catagory. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 10:05, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::I didn't say a SINGLE THING about the designers. You are either not reading what I said, or are outright lying to make me look bad. In any case, please stop it. I said that the WOTC BOARDS were filled with idiots, which they pretty much are- this is a place where doing basic math gets you shouted down as a "roll-player". This is a place where, when I suggested that Frank and K material be used for 3e games, I had someone openly and graphically fetishize about my death, and have a moderator be totally OK with it, because I was a "dirty munchkin". So yeah. That place sucks. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:22, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
=Large=<br />
Just a few of the reasons why Large does not work in 4e:<br />
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* The question of reach. How much reach do you have naturally? 2 squares? Do having a reach weapon extend that to 4 squares? If you choose to give a large size creature a larger reach, you give them absolutely unprecedented control of the battlefield right from level 1.<br />
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* Flanking. A medium creature has 9 ways of standing adjacent to another medium creature to flank. A large creature has 12 ways of standing adjacent to a medium creature to flank.<br />
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* Being flanked. A medium creature can be flanked from 9 positions by another medium creature. A large creature can be flanked from 12 positions by a medium creature.<br />
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* Mobility. Large creature can't fit through spaces in combat that medium creatures can. (Example: Two medium opponents with 3 squares between them that you need to get past? Well a medium creature can get through there without provoking opportunity attacks. A large creature cannot.)<br />
<br />
* Close attacks are much more versatile and powerful for a large creature than for a medium creature. ''Bursts:'' A medium creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 9 squares, up to 9 targets. A large creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 12 squares, up to 9 targets. Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares. Close burst 3 results in 48 squares versus 63 squares. ''Blasts:'' A medium creature has 16 ways to orient a Close Blast 3. A large creature has 25 ways to orient a Close Blast 3.<br />
<br />
*Large size does have both bonuses and penalties, the mistake should not be made that they balance each other out. Many of these bonuses and penalties apply to melee characters but not ranged characters or ranged characters but not melee character. Furthermore, another 4E PC race design philosophy that Large size breaks is that races are supposed to provide bonuses and not penalties, tell you what you can do and not what you can't. Racial penalties have no place in 4E.<br />
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* Weapon damage (PHB pg.220). The ''Oversized'' racial trait is almost universally considered to be overpowered because of its incredibly significant boost to damage. That's why only Monster races get it and PC races don't. It was even specifically removed from the official PC version Minotaur for this very reason. A Large race effectively gets this exact same bonus to damage.<br />
<br />
For any not wanting to view the forums. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:59, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:There's no reason to believe reach would work differently then it would in 3.5, which means a reach weapon is simply "+1 reach". The flanked/being flanked seems to balance out, so hey, that's OK. Mobility is a weakness, yep. That doesn't mean it's unplayable. You, once again, give deliberately misleading yet "accurate" numbers for the close attacks despite me proving them upthread. If a race can't work for ranged characters or is melee only, that's perfectly alright - the 4e races are incredibly pigeon-holed, "melee brute" is no more restrictive then many of the races already are (see: dwarf: cleric, fighter, maaaaybe wizard and paladin). Many of the races already tell you what you "can't do" - you can't, for example, make an effective halfling fighter, or an effective dragonborn wizard. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:18, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:: Wow, your wrong about races and the classes they can or can't be, also how are the number he gives "misleading" they are the correct number I double checked them myself, the points about weapon damage, and races are not meant to have penalties towards certain forms of combat. Just bonuses to a specific type, that are balanced along side the other races [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:10, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::How am I wrong? Please explain. The numbers are misleading because you're not subtracting the squares that the creature themselves take up. Generally, you aren't actually hitting anything occupying those squares. That only occurs in the absolute rarest of cases, and should not be counted. Right now, it doesn't appear to have any penalties - indeed, Large size just gives such large bonuses to melee you'd be stupid to play anything but. I fail to see how this is different with, say, Gnomes and the Wizard class. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:17, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::This is how you where wrong about the races and classes, you can make a descent (Insert Class Here) with Race X, nearlly everytime, with small creatures being the only ones who may possibly not do as good (though a Halfling Tempest fighter does work). Open the players handbook, choose any race, I bet I could make a viable character of nearlly every class. Now onto close bursts. Using a close burst 1 power a medium creature can target a maximum of 8 creatures. A Large creature can target a maximum of 12. A Close Burst 2 damage a maximum of 24 creatures for a medium sized character and 32 for a large. How is that balanced? OH an just incase you need it ehre a illustration. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 01:18, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<center><br />
[[Image:Example.png]]<br />
</center><br />
<br />
:::::A halfling will never be a "decent" wizard, not if you compare it to a gnome wizard. The gnome wizard will utterly dominate him all the time. We have different definitions of "viable", here. At the very least, if you're not getting a bonus from ability scores to something useful, I'm not counting it as viable - monster defenses scale so fast that you practically need that +1 to hit, or at the very least a boost to your other states. Even then, that doesn't matter. If a race is only good for class X, so long as it's <i>balanced</i> with class X, does that honestly matter?<br />
:::::Now, thanks for your illustration. Let's see what *I* said, earlier up page<br />
::::::QUOTE ME: A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32.<br />
::::::QUOTE SEPSIS: Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares.<br />
:::::So no. My math is right, and your "let me draw you an illustration" <i>agrees with what I already said</i>. Yes, I agree that it is bigger, but I'm not entirely convinced that a bigger burst radius is going to make the race overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:24, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::Indeed it does, I didn't state i t was to agree with sepsis that was jsut me checking it out. Course I look like an idiot now. I still think that it will over power the race however. Also you can make a descent halfling wizard. +2 Dex, +2 Cha right? So thats a wand based wizard or one that uses illusions. Just because it wont have a 20 in Intelligence at 1st level does not make it any less viable then the Gnome Wizard. But this of course is an entirley different conversation for us to have else where ;) [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:51, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::::::Ok... I'm actually going to make a decent balance argument here. Looking at the benefits of large size <i>not including the bonus to damage</i> I want to make that clear, <i>not including the bonus to damage</i>, I think things balance out. You've got reach, which is awesome, but you'll need it in any sort of tight corridor situation as if you're on the front lines in a small hall, you're in big trouble (more enemies can get to you, and allies with reach can't attack past you). You've got bigger bursts, yup - though enemies aiming spells at you have more areas where to aim them at, and it's easier to aim them to hit you. Your bigger squares cause you to get tangled in difficult terrain and opportunity attacks more easily. And in any sort of tight space, you're at a disadvantage or even a liability to your party. Overall, I think the whole "You have 4 squares of area, and +1 reach" part of large is an interesting deal - in some cases it would be good, and in some cases it will be bad. That part, IMO, is the part that's going to be campaign dependent (it's only usable in some campaigns. if the author has a campaign that it is usable in, then we shouldn't change it otherwise). The real problem is the bonus damage. This is where the race can easily become overpowered, and THIS is the real problem with Large size. I don't have a problem if the race is only good for meleers, or only good for people who use strength. The problem is if it becomes too good for them. Even though +2 str is pretty flavorful, it may want to be removed. Just giving the race +2 con, and only +2 con may be appropriate. They're then comparable to warforged stat-wise for a strength-using class, and comparible to dragonborn or half-elves for a charisma one. There are, as far as I know, no classes that get +con to damage except for fighters with axes and maces on SOME of their powers. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 13:01, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::::Though I am no expert in 4e balance and didn't bother to read the whole wall of text above this, one thing to consider is the actual utility of the extra close burst squares. So you have 8 extra squares for a close burst 2. You will still need to actually have enemies in that burst. Being large and, thus, less maneuverable, it may be harder to get in a position where you can even use those extra squares to your advantage. On the other side of the argument, you also gain an increase in the overall size of the burst so you can reach creatures that are farther away from each other than a medium creature could. Reach coupled with close burst 2 allows a fighter (are there even any fighter close burst 2 attacks?) to pin down enemies 2 squares away. Now '''that''' is a powerful ability for a defender and something well worth considering. Playtesting is needed to figure this out. I think it is just too difficult to crunch conceptually. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:53, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::: Another thought occurs. A large creature has a bigger burst; but can a large creature be caught within another burst twice? Or maybe four times? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 10:59, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::: No it cannot, it still only counts as a single target.<br />
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:::::::::::Fighters, as far as I know, have very few bursts larger then 1. There's one or two, but not many. Even then, the bursts larger then 1 tend to move the creatures either closer to or further from the fighter. Overall, it really won't help the fighter lock down more foes for long, as he still can't make opportunity attacks except in melee, and he can't mark someone unless he attacks them. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:38, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::: Why are you bringing up Fighters? It does matter what class the race could be optimal in, it matters what class it could be in and how its abbilities could be overpowered with said classes. A Giant Wizard for example can take advantage of the close bursts. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:56, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::: I brought up fighters because Aarnott did. A giant wizard could take advantage of close bursts, yes, but with absolutely no stat benefit to them, I'd be the race would still end up totally underpowered. Sure, you hit more guys sometimes... but you are also easier to hit with bursts yourself, harder to manuever, take up more space, get in your allies way, are easier to gang up on, and so on. If you're not a melee-using class, being Large size is just not worth it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:12, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::: I give up. Dragon Child wins I'm out of the race. I'm fed up with listening to you when it comes to PC viability. You do not need a same attack stat as one of your races to hbe effecetive in higher levels. That is a fact. But you know better right? And I misse Aarnott's post, it doens't matter how many close burst powers the fighter has it still has them. These are all things we have to consider when it comes to the balance of races. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:23, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::Ok, fine, you won't end up "non-viable", but you won't end up "overpowered", so as long as you don't end up overpowered, it doesn't matter. I just don't think that the Giant will be anywhere NEAR as good as a Gnome wizard. No matter where you draw the viability line, as long as Gnome Wizard is an option, and Giant Wizard isn't as good, then we don't have to worry about it being overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:31, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::: Will you stop waving around that Gnome Wizard like a todler play with his genitals!, They are not the be all and end all of all wizards, I draw the viability line at you can play this race with this class. Because it has some feature that can help out. That feature is the large size and would work great with a wizard with mostly close burst spells. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:35, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::The gnome wizard, in my opinion, is the strongest race for wizard. This then is what we have to compare against - if a new race is stronger then the strongest, we have to decide if that's ok. If the new race isn't stronger then the strongest, then it is OK. Is there a race better at being wizards then the gnome? If so, sure, we'll compare them instead. If not, it's a totally fine balance point. And you need balance points - you can't just wave your hands and compare stuff in a vaccuum. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:42, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::How is the gnome wizard, the best viable wizard? Is it the useless per encounter only, the abbility to go invisible after you have been hit once an encounter the +2 Intelligence & +2 Charisma?? If you said. Gnomes are the best Illusion Wizards. I'd have reason to agree. But I don't see anything that amkes them "the best". [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:14, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::::Yeee-up I'm a dipshit. For some reason, I thought they had +2 Int, and +2 Wis. Mah bad. In any case, we should be looking at Eladrin, Tieflings, and Gnomes as a whole I guess. And +1 hit, +1 damage is still a hefty bonus, even when put against larger close bursts (how many do wizards actually have?). [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:52, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::::Not to many from a brief glance, making the giant wizard almost moot. I'm trying to think what class I thought had loads of close burst spells... may have been the bard... the swordmage... what about the warlord do they have many? (or the ranger for two weapon builds). And dont call yourself a dipshit simple mistake, confusing but simple. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:14, 3 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hill_Giant_(4e_Race)&diff=365461Talk:Hill Giant (4e Race)2009-06-03T18:48:46Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>==A Few Things==<br />
*'''Size:''' No 4e PC Race can be ''Large'', it is highly unbalancing when it comes to things like ''Burst'' areas and ''Weapon Reach'' just to name a few. <br />
*'''Large:''' You should never include a penalty in racial traits, as well the shift in improvised weapon damage seems odd. This entire trait should be rethought and rewritten.<br />
*'''Crush Underfoot:''' This is a bad power. Being only able to effect ''Small'' creatures, and then doing way to much damage. This power could easily disrupt any encounter (particularly if its against a ''Solo'' who happens to be ''Small'', no more little "boss" villians). It to needs to be rethought and rewritten.<br />
Overall I think your trying to convert a monster (ie. ''Hill Giant'') into a race that just won't work. Giants have too many qualities that unbalance them for PC use. Thank you for your time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 16:19, 10 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<br />
'''Comment from the Author:''' <br />
<br />
In Your comment on Large I realize that I can't include, but this is basically "Being Large", as in, "Being Small" for gnomes and halflings. I also disagree with you on races not being Large, only medium or small. I agree they take up space, but I would probably allow it as a GM. And why would it have anything to do with burst?<br />
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I will rethink Crush Underfoot... trying to not make it overpowered. Any suggestions?<br />
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Absconder, the author<br />
<br />
== Response ==<br />
<br />
A ''Large'' creature occupies 4 squares. A standard ''Close Burst'' 2 effects 25 squares, with a ''Large'' creature this increases to 64 squares...a bit overpowered at a basic level. The problems with ''Large'' PC Races is so numerous I could fill pages with the examples of how broken it is. And as said ''Large'' is explicitly against design standards for 4e Races (as well as using it to explain a penalty...penalties are another huge no no). So no matter how you fluff it, if it stays then this article needs the "Design Disclaimer". <br />
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As far as ''Crush Underfoot'', well frankly its kinda dull, I would dump it, and create another power that does less damage and maybe causes a ''Condition''. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 20:35, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Your numbers are off. A standard close burst 2 effects 25 squares, but only 24 if you remove the square the person is taking up. A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32. That's an 8 square difference, true, but the large size brings with it a ton of drawbacks with its wide area. Just because WOTC hasn't done something, doesn't mean it's WRONG. There's no reason to forbid penalties just because WOTC has. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:53, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Ah yes my math was off, so it only adds 16 squares...so its just really unbalanced, not horribly unbalanced. And as I said if the author wishes to include racial penalties and a Large size they can, but they are expressly forbidden in standard 4e design. Those are several of the things the rules were not designed to handle (like unlimited Heroic level flight). If they are used a DM will need to make further modifications as the game progresses to attempt to balance it (which will be hard given the rule set excludes those things and there will not be allowances for them). If these blatant balance issues are not brought into line then this article will need the "Design Disclaimer", it was created to warn potential users that a creation is not unbalanced out of ignorance (the design & developers guides are published every month), but out of choice. So yes it can be done, but the creation will remain unbalanced. This is 4e and when "WotC hasn't done something", you need to look into the reason...don't assume they missed something or are wrong. In this incidence, these issues are not only without precidence but they are specifically stated as being things never ever ever done with a race. Just notice the complete and total lack of large races, and the complete and total lack of racial penalties amongst the official races....this wasn't an oversight, and they have specifically said so. So in these particular areas the reason WotC hasn't done them is because they are "WRONG". -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::You seem to have your math wrong with those squares... again. And again, you can't just say "It's wrong because WOTC says so". You talk about the reason, but don't actually give what it is. If the DM is willing to allow larger than usual corridors to always make room for a giant (or, indeed, be able to use smaller ones to punish them) that removes it as a problem. Not everything has to be for every game. WOTC hasn't done a lot of stuff - there was no +Con +Int race in the PHB, but that doesn't mean if you make one you're automatically wrong. It's a better question to ask WHY racial penalties don't exist (hint: it's because they're pretty much meaningless) or why large creatures don't exist (it's because they won't fit in all games, which is OK if the DM does want him for his game.) [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 14:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::You keep missing the point. It isn't a matter of just using it and saying "its balanced because DMs can deal with it", that dosen't balance something. The fact is Large sized PC races are expressly against 4e design, so nothing official will ever support that trait therefore if this article keeps the Large size it must use the "Design Disclaimer" (warning DMs they will need to make adjustments)...that is all. Nothing says for any reason this can't be done, it just can't claim to be balanced. As for the math I think you are quibbling over a small amount at best...don't nitpick to derail the point, it covers more area then is covered by *any* other race, the plain fact. And thats only one of the problems that is caused because the rules don't account for Large PCs. Again I have no problem with a race being Large (although that seems to be this races "one note"), it just needs to use the disclaimer if it intends to remain unbalanced. No one is saying the author is wrong, we just want to be sure the author understood something (ie. intentionally building a article that requires internal balancing to work in someones game), and that when this is done you either change it or add the Disclaimer. We are trying to maintain a library of well designed and balanced articles for users, not just a place were people can twist core rules and pretend that it all is ok (causing all content to be suspect). If something goes outside the design guidelines it needs to be noted. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 15:33, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::You keep missing my point. If something requires a "Design Disclaimer", stating that it's only good in certain campaigns, that does NOT mean it's unbalanced. It's only for certain campaigns. There's a huge, huge difference. And yes, it does cover more area, but that had both strengths and weaknesses that can be balanced together. You keep using the word unbalanced when it really, really doesn't apply. Is the race overly strong compared to other races? Is it overly weak? If not, it is not unbalanced. It doesn't require internal "balancing" - it's not like you need to specifically use this race's strength or weakness. It requires accommodation. That's a huge difference. I'm not saying large isn't unbalanced - I'm not coming down one way or the other. I'm just saying that your reasoning is faulty. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:25, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::Well this is actually both. Large size races are expressly forbidden in the design standards of 4e, and its used "only for certain campaigns" (bad idea...all creations should appeal to as many gamers as possible, otherwise its going to be a passing fad). And I have a feeling you do not understand the 4e usage of the term "unbalanced". In 4e "unbalanced" means when compared to other articles of the same type (monsters, races, items, etc.) they must be on equal footing with each other (so no race should be inherently weaker or stronger then any other). If they are not on equal footing they are called "unbalanced" (this usage of the term is used so often by the designers it is sickening) if it was just bad mechanics it would be called "broken". So yes giving a race Large size, when no other race has the same trait (that is occupying more then one square) it is "unbalanced", and it requires DMs to make corrections in other rules as they go along (or as they say in 4e "requires internal balancing") these are polite terms that aptly describe the situations. I didn't invent the usage, this has been in effect since 4e first was released. I'm sorry if you missed it, and are confused by the use, but it is proper. If something requires "accomodation" in 4e it is considered "unbalanced" (there is no difference at all). But as I said I have no care either way, but if this is going to use a trait that goes directly against design standards, then it will need the "Design Disclaimer". Frankly this has become a pointless disscussion, I have no need to try and explain every thought...nor will I. If you want read the designer's blogs and the design/development logs and maybe it will be clearer. It is now up to the author to decide what he wants to do, either way this article needs to be completed, so we can all move on. Thank you for the spirited discussion, but I fear we have reached an impass, it now lies with the author to make some final decisions. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:30, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
BTW, here is what the template looks like...as you can see it says nothing about being good only in certain campaigns, just that the standard rules may not work with parts of the article.<br />
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{{Design Disclaimer|4e}}<br />
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:::::::All creations should appeal to as many people as possible?! What?! What?! No! All creations should be usable and balanced in the game they're set in. If I want to include hobgoblins as a playable race in my game, and other people think they should be evil creations only, I shouldn't have to put some fucking disclaimer on my page saying it's "potentially unbalanced". That's honestly what you're suggesting, and it's bullshit. Let's use the words to mean what they actually MEAN, ok? Something that's unbalanced is not balanced compared to other things of its level. Something that's broken is BROKEN - it doesn't work, or grinds the game to a screeching halt. It is not unbalanced - it does not make the race too strong or too weak <i>by itself</i>. You keep stating this as if it was fact, and the only proof you offer is "No other race does this, and the 4e designers haven't done it yet.". You say that it requires correction in the rules - what rules? Note that "The campaign style happens to accommodate large characters" is not a correction in the rules. Give an example of houserules a 4e DM would have to make. If you want to make claims and not be called on them, don't make them. If you don't want to have to explain your reasoning, don't share your thoughts. If you want to keep citing these blogs - <i>link them</i>. In other words, I'm calling a big-ass "CITE?" to you. You keep saying it's unbalanced. Prove it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:27, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::As I said it is all right there for everyone to see it is far from hidden (In fact I made a Thread about this race on the forums to help with this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330). But as now that you have started swearing, and contiunue to YELL, this conversation ends. You are now just being ignorant and rude, and I don't need to deal with morons. If you want to argue instead of discuss...then please leave. I'm done with you and your attitude. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 07:39, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::This is how it works. You make an argument, you back it up. You don't back it up, nobody listens to you. I could very well say that being Large is totally balanced, because I said so, and that's just as valid as your argument. I'm not even saying it's balanced - I haven't actually come down either way. YOU'RE the one with the attitude, expecting others to automatically listen whenever you say something, and then cry and whine when you don't get your way. A discussion involves actually DISCUSSING, and if you don't want people to call you on what you say, don't post to discussion threads. I'm sorry if not accepting you as lord god of D&D makes me a "moron". [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:51, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::There is no need to look through thousands of blog entries, you just use the precedence set by every other single rsce they have released. Notice there are no Large PC Races even Large monsters given PC stats (ie. the Minotaur) are resized to Medium. Gee wonder if everyone at WotC missed something...or maybe they did say what I said they did, and have made they conscious decision not to include them because PC rules and powers are not designed to use a Large size (Monsters and PC Races are not written in an exchanable format like 3e anymore). If you don't have time to read (like I don't have time to teach you 4e design) use logic and listen to those who have read the material. I gain nor lose by anyone listening to me. I try to guide people in creating articles that are fun for everyone to use and that is all. I could care less what an author does with their creation, but everything posted reflects on the entire community and yes I hate to be made to look stupid because someone else dosen't understand a basic 4e design element. So far you have put forth no proof that you are right in any way. Nothing is backed up at all. Hit the blogs and post the question, they will answer in very short order. Find out...don't sit in your own world and think you figured out something better minds then yours already determined. And no your a complete and utter moron because you aren't even willing to try and learn, and you use foul language to try and win a fight. Well enjoy, but this is it. I will never be responding to you again, as you have proven you aren't even close enough to being worthy of my (or anyones really) time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:32, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::For swearing and being rude above both [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] and [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] acquire a warning each. It's not too serious though; three warnings result in a one week ban however hopefully that will not be the case. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:33, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Damage==<br />
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Crush Underfoot is incredibly powerful, a 3d10 attack at level 1. That is more powerful than the level 13 brute Hill Giant in the MM (which has a 1d10+5 attack and a 2d6+5 attack). I'd suggest a 1d10/2d10/3d10 progression for 1st/11th/21st levels. [[User:Pdboddy|Pdboddy]] 13:40, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Balance ==<br />
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* Large sized is ok, you take up more room, and the hill giants lack of racial traits kinda balances out with the higher damage with weapons, maybe however decrease the speed to 5? <br />
* The racial power is very powerful, I think maybe if you took a apporach simmilar to that of the Dragonborns Dragonbreath this could be easily balanced.<br />
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{{4e Power<br />
|name=Crush Underfoot<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Giant<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=The goblin screamed as you brought your foot up. He got so annoying you decided to put your foot down. Right on top of him.<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|range=Meelee<br />
|target=One Medium or smaller creature.<br />
|attack=Strength +2<br />
|defense=Reflex<br />
|hit=1d8 + Strength Modifier damage.<br />
|extra= Increase to +4 and 2d8 + Strength Modifier damage at 11th level, and +5 and 3d8 + Strength Modifier Damage.<br />
}}<br />
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:???...So a miss can cause more damage then a hit? I don't think the to-hit bonus should scale (they will have high strengths already, which will increase as they level), and if it must then +3 at ''Paragon'' and +4 at ''Epic''. But with the strength scores being what they will it is overkill. Overall this is still a kinda dull racial power, what if the target and all creatures within a Close Burst 1 (except for the PC) were knocked Prone? This might make it more intresting and at least a little usable by Ranged classes. As for the "Large" size; nothing done at this level will allow that trait to be balanced, the rest of the rule set for PCs is not designed to incorporate it...it will bring only headaches to DMs not properly prepared to deal with it. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:59, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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: Sorry, I fail to see what your problem with the Large Size is, it doesn't really effect anything par the damage of weapons and the close burst. Also not all racial powers are meant to be useful for every single class, your point on the +2 bonus doesn't really stand either, the Dragonborn gets Strength +2 VS. Reflex, yet the three classes given as examples and favored classes of the dragonborn will mean they have a high strength bonus.I meant to drop the miss bit.<br />
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::Its not "my" problem with Large size, its the designers. They feel it is unbalancing therefore they have said no PC races will be Large. That given, it means nothing that is published will ever account for a Large sized PC, requiring DM modification to include. Now as I said the author can leave it, but it is unbalanced, no way around it. Therefore if it stays this article just needs to add the "Design Disclaimer" template to it and that is all. As for the power, well the Dragonborn power is an AoE that effects all creatures (friend and foe), so the tactical issue that comes in play is the fact your going to most likely hit what you breath at, even if its an ally. An attack directed at a single foe dosen't have this issue, and should not be as accurate (or scale slower). Of course if it had a wider effect (such as what I suggested) leaving the high to-hit would be fine. Lastly official racial powers are designed to be useful for all classes. Racial powers should not "pigeon-hole" a Player into a specific role. Really look at all the official racial powers and think about how a melee or ranged character would use it. If you find one that is truely limited to one type please show me, so far they all are equally useable by both types of classes. Now HB racial powers may do this because sometimes a race is just too narrow to be much more then one type or the other, and while WotC would just not create the race, one of your Players may want to play it...so it gets made. Nothing wrong there, just in the spirit it is nice to see racial powers that everyone can enjoy. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 08:08, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: Sorry if I came of a bit snarky, it was not meant to be an attack, I didn't realise they had said this about large races however. and i do see what you mean by racial powers[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:27, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Thats ok, I'm sure I sounded snarky myself. No offense was ever intended, so lets move on. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 12:43, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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=Author=<br />
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:Thank you all, I read through all the comments, and am working on some ideas to improve this race. Sepsis, I still think it's possible to make homebrew rules for Large, so I will not change that... not that I don't see your point. I realize it's against standards, but as a DM, I'll make my own homebrew rules and it should be fine for the purposes of my adventures. I'm working on a couple different ways to make Crush Underfoot less powerful... I should have whipped something up by this time next week! Thanks for your input -- [[User:Absconder|Absconder]]<br />
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::You may want to keep an eye on these Threads: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330 -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 13:55, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::The WOTC boards of places of scum and stupidity. If an actual argument can be made, it can be posted here. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:54, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Wow that answers a lot, an ignorant rant boy. Now I see, another..."I'm smarter then the designers, those morons." type guy. So your opinions really are completly worthless. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:35, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::OK that was just plain rude on my part. I have got to apologize. This is why I hate internet "arguments". I let myself get too angry with you. I should just take a deep breath. I'm willing to disagree, but I shouldn't drop down to the level of insults and such. We don't have to like each other, but we also don't have to resort to mudslinging. Again I am sorry for just being insulting that is beneath me, and I hate to think I would be lumped in that catagory. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 10:05, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::I didn't say a SINGLE THING about the designers. You are either not reading what I said, or are outright lying to make me look bad. In any case, please stop it. I said that the WOTC BOARDS were filled with idiots, which they pretty much are- this is a place where doing basic math gets you shouted down as a "roll-player". This is a place where, when I suggested that Frank and K material be used for 3e games, I had someone openly and graphically fetishize about my death, and have a moderator be totally OK with it, because I was a "dirty munchkin". So yeah. That place sucks. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:22, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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=Large=<br />
Just a few of the reasons why Large does not work in 4e:<br />
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* The question of reach. How much reach do you have naturally? 2 squares? Do having a reach weapon extend that to 4 squares? If you choose to give a large size creature a larger reach, you give them absolutely unprecedented control of the battlefield right from level 1.<br />
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* Flanking. A medium creature has 9 ways of standing adjacent to another medium creature to flank. A large creature has 12 ways of standing adjacent to a medium creature to flank.<br />
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* Being flanked. A medium creature can be flanked from 9 positions by another medium creature. A large creature can be flanked from 12 positions by a medium creature.<br />
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* Mobility. Large creature can't fit through spaces in combat that medium creatures can. (Example: Two medium opponents with 3 squares between them that you need to get past? Well a medium creature can get through there without provoking opportunity attacks. A large creature cannot.)<br />
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* Close attacks are much more versatile and powerful for a large creature than for a medium creature. ''Bursts:'' A medium creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 9 squares, up to 9 targets. A large creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 12 squares, up to 9 targets. Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares. Close burst 3 results in 48 squares versus 63 squares. ''Blasts:'' A medium creature has 16 ways to orient a Close Blast 3. A large creature has 25 ways to orient a Close Blast 3.<br />
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*Large size does have both bonuses and penalties, the mistake should not be made that they balance each other out. Many of these bonuses and penalties apply to melee characters but not ranged characters or ranged characters but not melee character. Furthermore, another 4E PC race design philosophy that Large size breaks is that races are supposed to provide bonuses and not penalties, tell you what you can do and not what you can't. Racial penalties have no place in 4E.<br />
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* Weapon damage (PHB pg.220). The ''Oversized'' racial trait is almost universally considered to be overpowered because of its incredibly significant boost to damage. That's why only Monster races get it and PC races don't. It was even specifically removed from the official PC version Minotaur for this very reason. A Large race effectively gets this exact same bonus to damage.<br />
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For any not wanting to view the forums. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:59, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:There's no reason to believe reach would work differently then it would in 3.5, which means a reach weapon is simply "+1 reach". The flanked/being flanked seems to balance out, so hey, that's OK. Mobility is a weakness, yep. That doesn't mean it's unplayable. You, once again, give deliberately misleading yet "accurate" numbers for the close attacks despite me proving them upthread. If a race can't work for ranged characters or is melee only, that's perfectly alright - the 4e races are incredibly pigeon-holed, "melee brute" is no more restrictive then many of the races already are (see: dwarf: cleric, fighter, maaaaybe wizard and paladin). Many of the races already tell you what you "can't do" - you can't, for example, make an effective halfling fighter, or an effective dragonborn wizard. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:18, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:: Wow, your wrong about races and the classes they can or can't be, also how are the number he gives "misleading" they are the correct number I double checked them myself, the points about weapon damage, and races are not meant to have penalties towards certain forms of combat. Just bonuses to a specific type, that are balanced along side the other races [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:10, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::How am I wrong? Please explain. The numbers are misleading because you're not subtracting the squares that the creature themselves take up. Generally, you aren't actually hitting anything occupying those squares. That only occurs in the absolute rarest of cases, and should not be counted. Right now, it doesn't appear to have any penalties - indeed, Large size just gives such large bonuses to melee you'd be stupid to play anything but. I fail to see how this is different with, say, Gnomes and the Wizard class. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:17, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::This is how you where wrong about the races and classes, you can make a descent (Insert Class Here) with Race X, nearlly everytime, with small creatures being the only ones who may possibly not do as good (though a Halfling Tempest fighter does work). Open the players handbook, choose any race, I bet I could make a viable character of nearlly every class. Now onto close bursts. Using a close burst 1 power a medium creature can target a maximum of 8 creatures. A Large creature can target a maximum of 12. A Close Burst 2 damage a maximum of 24 creatures for a medium sized character and 32 for a large. How is that balanced? OH an just incase you need it ehre a illustration. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 01:18, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<center><br />
[[Image:Example.png]]<br />
</center><br />
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:::::A halfling will never be a "decent" wizard, not if you compare it to a gnome wizard. The gnome wizard will utterly dominate him all the time. We have different definitions of "viable", here. At the very least, if you're not getting a bonus from ability scores to something useful, I'm not counting it as viable - monster defenses scale so fast that you practically need that +1 to hit, or at the very least a boost to your other states. Even then, that doesn't matter. If a race is only good for class X, so long as it's <i>balanced</i> with class X, does that honestly matter?<br />
:::::Now, thanks for your illustration. Let's see what *I* said, earlier up page<br />
::::::QUOTE ME: A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32.<br />
::::::QUOTE SEPSIS: Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares.<br />
:::::So no. My math is right, and your "let me draw you an illustration" <i>agrees with what I already said</i>. Yes, I agree that it is bigger, but I'm not entirely convinced that a bigger burst radius is going to make the race overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:24, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::Indeed it does, I didn't state i t was to agree with sepsis that was jsut me checking it out. Course I look like an idiot now. I still think that it will over power the race however. Also you can make a descent halfling wizard. +2 Dex, +2 Cha right? So thats a wand based wizard or one that uses illusions. Just because it wont have a 20 in Intelligence at 1st level does not make it any less viable then the Gnome Wizard. But this of course is an entirley different conversation for us to have else where ;) [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:51, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::::::Ok... I'm actually going to make a decent balance argument here. Looking at the benefits of large size <i>not including the bonus to damage</i> I want to make that clear, <i>not including the bonus to damage</i>, I think things balance out. You've got reach, which is awesome, but you'll need it in any sort of tight corridor situation as if you're on the front lines in a small hall, you're in big trouble (more enemies can get to you, and allies with reach can't attack past you). You've got bigger bursts, yup - though enemies aiming spells at you have more areas where to aim them at, and it's easier to aim them to hit you. Your bigger squares cause you to get tangled in difficult terrain and opportunity attacks more easily. And in any sort of tight space, you're at a disadvantage or even a liability to your party. Overall, I think the whole "You have 4 squares of area, and +1 reach" part of large is an interesting deal - in some cases it would be good, and in some cases it will be bad. That part, IMO, is the part that's going to be campaign dependent (it's only usable in some campaigns. if the author has a campaign that it is usable in, then we shouldn't change it otherwise). The real problem is the bonus damage. This is where the race can easily become overpowered, and THIS is the real problem with Large size. I don't have a problem if the race is only good for meleers, or only good for people who use strength. The problem is if it becomes too good for them. Even though +2 str is pretty flavorful, it may want to be removed. Just giving the race +2 con, and only +2 con may be appropriate. They're then comparable to warforged stat-wise for a strength-using class, and comparible to dragonborn or half-elves for a charisma one. There are, as far as I know, no classes that get +con to damage except for fighters with axes and maces on SOME of their powers. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 13:01, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::::Though I am no expert in 4e balance and didn't bother to read the whole wall of text above this, one thing to consider is the actual utility of the extra close burst squares. So you have 8 extra squares for a close burst 2. You will still need to actually have enemies in that burst. Being large and, thus, less maneuverable, it may be harder to get in a position where you can even use those extra squares to your advantage. On the other side of the argument, you also gain an increase in the overall size of the burst so you can reach creatures that are farther away from each other than a medium creature could. Reach coupled with close burst 2 allows a fighter (are there even any fighter close burst 2 attacks?) to pin down enemies 2 squares away. Now '''that''' is a powerful ability for a defender and something well worth considering. Playtesting is needed to figure this out. I think it is just too difficult to crunch conceptually. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:53, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::: Another thought occurs. A large creature has a bigger burst; but can a large creature be caught within another burst twice? Or maybe four times? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 10:59, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::: No it cannot, it still only counts as a single target.<br />
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:::::::::::Fighters, as far as I know, have very few bursts larger then 1. There's one or two, but not many. Even then, the bursts larger then 1 tend to move the creatures either closer to or further from the fighter. Overall, it really won't help the fighter lock down more foes for long, as he still can't make opportunity attacks except in melee, and he can't mark someone unless he attacks them. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:38, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::: Why are you bringing up Fighters? It does matter what class the race could be optimal in, it matters what class it could be in and how its abbilities could be overpowered with said classes. A Giant Wizard for example can take advantage of the close bursts. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:56, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::: I brought up fighters because Aarnott did. A giant wizard could take advantage of close bursts, yes, but with absolutely no stat benefit to them, I'd be the race would still end up totally underpowered. Sure, you hit more guys sometimes... but you are also easier to hit with bursts yourself, harder to manuever, take up more space, get in your allies way, are easier to gang up on, and so on. If you're not a melee-using class, being Large size is just not worth it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:12, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::: I give up. Dragon Child wins I'm out of the race. I'm fed up with listening to you when it comes to PC viability. You do not need a same attack stat as one of your races to hbe effecetive in higher levels. That is a fact. But you know better right? And I misse Aarnott's post, it doens't matter how many close burst powers the fighter has it still has them. These are all things we have to consider when it comes to the balance of races. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:23, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::Ok, fine, you won't end up "non-viable", but you won't end up "overpowered", so as long as you don't end up overpowered, it doesn't matter. I just don't think that the Giant will be anywhere NEAR as good as a Gnome wizard. No matter where you draw the viability line, as long as Gnome Wizard is an option, and Giant Wizard isn't as good, then we don't have to worry about it being overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:31, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::: Will you stop waving around that Gnome Wizard like a todler play with his genitals!, They are not the be all and end all of all wizards, I draw the viability line at you can play this race with this class. Because it has some feature that can help out. That feature is the large size and would work great with a wizard with mostly close burst spells. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:35, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::The gnome wizard, in my opinion, is the strongest race for wizard. This then is what we have to compare against - if a new race is stronger then the strongest, we have to decide if that's ok. If the new race isn't stronger then the strongest, then it is OK. Is there a race better at being wizards then the gnome? If so, sure, we'll compare them instead. If not, it's a totally fine balance point. And you need balance points - you can't just wave your hands and compare stuff in a vaccuum. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:42, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::How is the gnome wizard, the best viable wizard? Is it the useless per encounter only, the abbility to go invisible after you have been hit once an encounter the +2 Intelligence & +2 Charisma?? If you said. Gnomes are the best Illusion Wizards. I'd have reason to agree. But I don't see anything that amkes them "the best".</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hill_Giant_(4e_Race)&diff=365459Talk:Hill Giant (4e Race)2009-06-03T18:35:32Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Large */</p>
<hr />
<div>==A Few Things==<br />
*'''Size:''' No 4e PC Race can be ''Large'', it is highly unbalancing when it comes to things like ''Burst'' areas and ''Weapon Reach'' just to name a few. <br />
*'''Large:''' You should never include a penalty in racial traits, as well the shift in improvised weapon damage seems odd. This entire trait should be rethought and rewritten.<br />
*'''Crush Underfoot:''' This is a bad power. Being only able to effect ''Small'' creatures, and then doing way to much damage. This power could easily disrupt any encounter (particularly if its against a ''Solo'' who happens to be ''Small'', no more little "boss" villians). It to needs to be rethought and rewritten.<br />
Overall I think your trying to convert a monster (ie. ''Hill Giant'') into a race that just won't work. Giants have too many qualities that unbalance them for PC use. Thank you for your time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 16:19, 10 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment from the Author:''' <br />
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In Your comment on Large I realize that I can't include, but this is basically "Being Large", as in, "Being Small" for gnomes and halflings. I also disagree with you on races not being Large, only medium or small. I agree they take up space, but I would probably allow it as a GM. And why would it have anything to do with burst?<br />
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I will rethink Crush Underfoot... trying to not make it overpowered. Any suggestions?<br />
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Absconder, the author<br />
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== Response ==<br />
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A ''Large'' creature occupies 4 squares. A standard ''Close Burst'' 2 effects 25 squares, with a ''Large'' creature this increases to 64 squares...a bit overpowered at a basic level. The problems with ''Large'' PC Races is so numerous I could fill pages with the examples of how broken it is. And as said ''Large'' is explicitly against design standards for 4e Races (as well as using it to explain a penalty...penalties are another huge no no). So no matter how you fluff it, if it stays then this article needs the "Design Disclaimer". <br />
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As far as ''Crush Underfoot'', well frankly its kinda dull, I would dump it, and create another power that does less damage and maybe causes a ''Condition''. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 20:35, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Your numbers are off. A standard close burst 2 effects 25 squares, but only 24 if you remove the square the person is taking up. A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32. That's an 8 square difference, true, but the large size brings with it a ton of drawbacks with its wide area. Just because WOTC hasn't done something, doesn't mean it's WRONG. There's no reason to forbid penalties just because WOTC has. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:53, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Ah yes my math was off, so it only adds 16 squares...so its just really unbalanced, not horribly unbalanced. And as I said if the author wishes to include racial penalties and a Large size they can, but they are expressly forbidden in standard 4e design. Those are several of the things the rules were not designed to handle (like unlimited Heroic level flight). If they are used a DM will need to make further modifications as the game progresses to attempt to balance it (which will be hard given the rule set excludes those things and there will not be allowances for them). If these blatant balance issues are not brought into line then this article will need the "Design Disclaimer", it was created to warn potential users that a creation is not unbalanced out of ignorance (the design & developers guides are published every month), but out of choice. So yes it can be done, but the creation will remain unbalanced. This is 4e and when "WotC hasn't done something", you need to look into the reason...don't assume they missed something or are wrong. In this incidence, these issues are not only without precidence but they are specifically stated as being things never ever ever done with a race. Just notice the complete and total lack of large races, and the complete and total lack of racial penalties amongst the official races....this wasn't an oversight, and they have specifically said so. So in these particular areas the reason WotC hasn't done them is because they are "WRONG". -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::You seem to have your math wrong with those squares... again. And again, you can't just say "It's wrong because WOTC says so". You talk about the reason, but don't actually give what it is. If the DM is willing to allow larger than usual corridors to always make room for a giant (or, indeed, be able to use smaller ones to punish them) that removes it as a problem. Not everything has to be for every game. WOTC hasn't done a lot of stuff - there was no +Con +Int race in the PHB, but that doesn't mean if you make one you're automatically wrong. It's a better question to ask WHY racial penalties don't exist (hint: it's because they're pretty much meaningless) or why large creatures don't exist (it's because they won't fit in all games, which is OK if the DM does want him for his game.) [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 14:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::You keep missing the point. It isn't a matter of just using it and saying "its balanced because DMs can deal with it", that dosen't balance something. The fact is Large sized PC races are expressly against 4e design, so nothing official will ever support that trait therefore if this article keeps the Large size it must use the "Design Disclaimer" (warning DMs they will need to make adjustments)...that is all. Nothing says for any reason this can't be done, it just can't claim to be balanced. As for the math I think you are quibbling over a small amount at best...don't nitpick to derail the point, it covers more area then is covered by *any* other race, the plain fact. And thats only one of the problems that is caused because the rules don't account for Large PCs. Again I have no problem with a race being Large (although that seems to be this races "one note"), it just needs to use the disclaimer if it intends to remain unbalanced. No one is saying the author is wrong, we just want to be sure the author understood something (ie. intentionally building a article that requires internal balancing to work in someones game), and that when this is done you either change it or add the Disclaimer. We are trying to maintain a library of well designed and balanced articles for users, not just a place were people can twist core rules and pretend that it all is ok (causing all content to be suspect). If something goes outside the design guidelines it needs to be noted. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 15:33, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::You keep missing my point. If something requires a "Design Disclaimer", stating that it's only good in certain campaigns, that does NOT mean it's unbalanced. It's only for certain campaigns. There's a huge, huge difference. And yes, it does cover more area, but that had both strengths and weaknesses that can be balanced together. You keep using the word unbalanced when it really, really doesn't apply. Is the race overly strong compared to other races? Is it overly weak? If not, it is not unbalanced. It doesn't require internal "balancing" - it's not like you need to specifically use this race's strength or weakness. It requires accommodation. That's a huge difference. I'm not saying large isn't unbalanced - I'm not coming down one way or the other. I'm just saying that your reasoning is faulty. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:25, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Well this is actually both. Large size races are expressly forbidden in the design standards of 4e, and its used "only for certain campaigns" (bad idea...all creations should appeal to as many gamers as possible, otherwise its going to be a passing fad). And I have a feeling you do not understand the 4e usage of the term "unbalanced". In 4e "unbalanced" means when compared to other articles of the same type (monsters, races, items, etc.) they must be on equal footing with each other (so no race should be inherently weaker or stronger then any other). If they are not on equal footing they are called "unbalanced" (this usage of the term is used so often by the designers it is sickening) if it was just bad mechanics it would be called "broken". So yes giving a race Large size, when no other race has the same trait (that is occupying more then one square) it is "unbalanced", and it requires DMs to make corrections in other rules as they go along (or as they say in 4e "requires internal balancing") these are polite terms that aptly describe the situations. I didn't invent the usage, this has been in effect since 4e first was released. I'm sorry if you missed it, and are confused by the use, but it is proper. If something requires "accomodation" in 4e it is considered "unbalanced" (there is no difference at all). But as I said I have no care either way, but if this is going to use a trait that goes directly against design standards, then it will need the "Design Disclaimer". Frankly this has become a pointless disscussion, I have no need to try and explain every thought...nor will I. If you want read the designer's blogs and the design/development logs and maybe it will be clearer. It is now up to the author to decide what he wants to do, either way this article needs to be completed, so we can all move on. Thank you for the spirited discussion, but I fear we have reached an impass, it now lies with the author to make some final decisions. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:30, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
BTW, here is what the template looks like...as you can see it says nothing about being good only in certain campaigns, just that the standard rules may not work with parts of the article.<br />
<br />
{{Design Disclaimer|4e}}<br />
<br />
:::::::All creations should appeal to as many people as possible?! What?! What?! No! All creations should be usable and balanced in the game they're set in. If I want to include hobgoblins as a playable race in my game, and other people think they should be evil creations only, I shouldn't have to put some fucking disclaimer on my page saying it's "potentially unbalanced". That's honestly what you're suggesting, and it's bullshit. Let's use the words to mean what they actually MEAN, ok? Something that's unbalanced is not balanced compared to other things of its level. Something that's broken is BROKEN - it doesn't work, or grinds the game to a screeching halt. It is not unbalanced - it does not make the race too strong or too weak <i>by itself</i>. You keep stating this as if it was fact, and the only proof you offer is "No other race does this, and the 4e designers haven't done it yet.". You say that it requires correction in the rules - what rules? Note that "The campaign style happens to accommodate large characters" is not a correction in the rules. Give an example of houserules a 4e DM would have to make. If you want to make claims and not be called on them, don't make them. If you don't want to have to explain your reasoning, don't share your thoughts. If you want to keep citing these blogs - <i>link them</i>. In other words, I'm calling a big-ass "CITE?" to you. You keep saying it's unbalanced. Prove it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:27, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::As I said it is all right there for everyone to see it is far from hidden (In fact I made a Thread about this race on the forums to help with this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330). But as now that you have started swearing, and contiunue to YELL, this conversation ends. You are now just being ignorant and rude, and I don't need to deal with morons. If you want to argue instead of discuss...then please leave. I'm done with you and your attitude. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 07:39, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::This is how it works. You make an argument, you back it up. You don't back it up, nobody listens to you. I could very well say that being Large is totally balanced, because I said so, and that's just as valid as your argument. I'm not even saying it's balanced - I haven't actually come down either way. YOU'RE the one with the attitude, expecting others to automatically listen whenever you say something, and then cry and whine when you don't get your way. A discussion involves actually DISCUSSING, and if you don't want people to call you on what you say, don't post to discussion threads. I'm sorry if not accepting you as lord god of D&D makes me a "moron". [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:51, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::There is no need to look through thousands of blog entries, you just use the precedence set by every other single rsce they have released. Notice there are no Large PC Races even Large monsters given PC stats (ie. the Minotaur) are resized to Medium. Gee wonder if everyone at WotC missed something...or maybe they did say what I said they did, and have made they conscious decision not to include them because PC rules and powers are not designed to use a Large size (Monsters and PC Races are not written in an exchanable format like 3e anymore). If you don't have time to read (like I don't have time to teach you 4e design) use logic and listen to those who have read the material. I gain nor lose by anyone listening to me. I try to guide people in creating articles that are fun for everyone to use and that is all. I could care less what an author does with their creation, but everything posted reflects on the entire community and yes I hate to be made to look stupid because someone else dosen't understand a basic 4e design element. So far you have put forth no proof that you are right in any way. Nothing is backed up at all. Hit the blogs and post the question, they will answer in very short order. Find out...don't sit in your own world and think you figured out something better minds then yours already determined. And no your a complete and utter moron because you aren't even willing to try and learn, and you use foul language to try and win a fight. Well enjoy, but this is it. I will never be responding to you again, as you have proven you aren't even close enough to being worthy of my (or anyones really) time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:32, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::For swearing and being rude above both [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] and [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] acquire a warning each. It's not too serious though; three warnings result in a one week ban however hopefully that will not be the case. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:33, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Damage==<br />
<br />
Crush Underfoot is incredibly powerful, a 3d10 attack at level 1. That is more powerful than the level 13 brute Hill Giant in the MM (which has a 1d10+5 attack and a 2d6+5 attack). I'd suggest a 1d10/2d10/3d10 progression for 1st/11th/21st levels. [[User:Pdboddy|Pdboddy]] 13:40, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Balance ==<br />
<br />
<br />
* Large sized is ok, you take up more room, and the hill giants lack of racial traits kinda balances out with the higher damage with weapons, maybe however decrease the speed to 5? <br />
* The racial power is very powerful, I think maybe if you took a apporach simmilar to that of the Dragonborns Dragonbreath this could be easily balanced.<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Crush Underfoot<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Giant<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=The goblin screamed as you brought your foot up. He got so annoying you decided to put your foot down. Right on top of him.<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|range=Meelee<br />
|target=One Medium or smaller creature.<br />
|attack=Strength +2<br />
|defense=Reflex<br />
|hit=1d8 + Strength Modifier damage.<br />
|extra= Increase to +4 and 2d8 + Strength Modifier damage at 11th level, and +5 and 3d8 + Strength Modifier Damage.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
:???...So a miss can cause more damage then a hit? I don't think the to-hit bonus should scale (they will have high strengths already, which will increase as they level), and if it must then +3 at ''Paragon'' and +4 at ''Epic''. But with the strength scores being what they will it is overkill. Overall this is still a kinda dull racial power, what if the target and all creatures within a Close Burst 1 (except for the PC) were knocked Prone? This might make it more intresting and at least a little usable by Ranged classes. As for the "Large" size; nothing done at this level will allow that trait to be balanced, the rest of the rule set for PCs is not designed to incorporate it...it will bring only headaches to DMs not properly prepared to deal with it. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:59, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: Sorry, I fail to see what your problem with the Large Size is, it doesn't really effect anything par the damage of weapons and the close burst. Also not all racial powers are meant to be useful for every single class, your point on the +2 bonus doesn't really stand either, the Dragonborn gets Strength +2 VS. Reflex, yet the three classes given as examples and favored classes of the dragonborn will mean they have a high strength bonus.I meant to drop the miss bit.<br />
<br />
::Its not "my" problem with Large size, its the designers. They feel it is unbalancing therefore they have said no PC races will be Large. That given, it means nothing that is published will ever account for a Large sized PC, requiring DM modification to include. Now as I said the author can leave it, but it is unbalanced, no way around it. Therefore if it stays this article just needs to add the "Design Disclaimer" template to it and that is all. As for the power, well the Dragonborn power is an AoE that effects all creatures (friend and foe), so the tactical issue that comes in play is the fact your going to most likely hit what you breath at, even if its an ally. An attack directed at a single foe dosen't have this issue, and should not be as accurate (or scale slower). Of course if it had a wider effect (such as what I suggested) leaving the high to-hit would be fine. Lastly official racial powers are designed to be useful for all classes. Racial powers should not "pigeon-hole" a Player into a specific role. Really look at all the official racial powers and think about how a melee or ranged character would use it. If you find one that is truely limited to one type please show me, so far they all are equally useable by both types of classes. Now HB racial powers may do this because sometimes a race is just too narrow to be much more then one type or the other, and while WotC would just not create the race, one of your Players may want to play it...so it gets made. Nothing wrong there, just in the spirit it is nice to see racial powers that everyone can enjoy. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 08:08, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: Sorry if I came of a bit snarky, it was not meant to be an attack, I didn't realise they had said this about large races however. and i do see what you mean by racial powers[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:27, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Thats ok, I'm sure I sounded snarky myself. No offense was ever intended, so lets move on. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 12:43, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
=Author=<br />
<br />
:Thank you all, I read through all the comments, and am working on some ideas to improve this race. Sepsis, I still think it's possible to make homebrew rules for Large, so I will not change that... not that I don't see your point. I realize it's against standards, but as a DM, I'll make my own homebrew rules and it should be fine for the purposes of my adventures. I'm working on a couple different ways to make Crush Underfoot less powerful... I should have whipped something up by this time next week! Thanks for your input -- [[User:Absconder|Absconder]]<br />
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::You may want to keep an eye on these Threads: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330 -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 13:55, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::The WOTC boards of places of scum and stupidity. If an actual argument can be made, it can be posted here. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:54, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Wow that answers a lot, an ignorant rant boy. Now I see, another..."I'm smarter then the designers, those morons." type guy. So your opinions really are completly worthless. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:35, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::OK that was just plain rude on my part. I have got to apologize. This is why I hate internet "arguments". I let myself get too angry with you. I should just take a deep breath. I'm willing to disagree, but I shouldn't drop down to the level of insults and such. We don't have to like each other, but we also don't have to resort to mudslinging. Again I am sorry for just being insulting that is beneath me, and I hate to think I would be lumped in that catagory. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 10:05, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I didn't say a SINGLE THING about the designers. You are either not reading what I said, or are outright lying to make me look bad. In any case, please stop it. I said that the WOTC BOARDS were filled with idiots, which they pretty much are- this is a place where doing basic math gets you shouted down as a "roll-player". This is a place where, when I suggested that Frank and K material be used for 3e games, I had someone openly and graphically fetishize about my death, and have a moderator be totally OK with it, because I was a "dirty munchkin". So yeah. That place sucks. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:22, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
=Large=<br />
Just a few of the reasons why Large does not work in 4e:<br />
<br />
* The question of reach. How much reach do you have naturally? 2 squares? Do having a reach weapon extend that to 4 squares? If you choose to give a large size creature a larger reach, you give them absolutely unprecedented control of the battlefield right from level 1.<br />
<br />
* Flanking. A medium creature has 9 ways of standing adjacent to another medium creature to flank. A large creature has 12 ways of standing adjacent to a medium creature to flank.<br />
<br />
* Being flanked. A medium creature can be flanked from 9 positions by another medium creature. A large creature can be flanked from 12 positions by a medium creature.<br />
<br />
* Mobility. Large creature can't fit through spaces in combat that medium creatures can. (Example: Two medium opponents with 3 squares between them that you need to get past? Well a medium creature can get through there without provoking opportunity attacks. A large creature cannot.)<br />
<br />
* Close attacks are much more versatile and powerful for a large creature than for a medium creature. ''Bursts:'' A medium creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 9 squares, up to 9 targets. A large creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 12 squares, up to 9 targets. Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares. Close burst 3 results in 48 squares versus 63 squares. ''Blasts:'' A medium creature has 16 ways to orient a Close Blast 3. A large creature has 25 ways to orient a Close Blast 3.<br />
<br />
*Large size does have both bonuses and penalties, the mistake should not be made that they balance each other out. Many of these bonuses and penalties apply to melee characters but not ranged characters or ranged characters but not melee character. Furthermore, another 4E PC race design philosophy that Large size breaks is that races are supposed to provide bonuses and not penalties, tell you what you can do and not what you can't. Racial penalties have no place in 4E.<br />
<br />
* Weapon damage (PHB pg.220). The ''Oversized'' racial trait is almost universally considered to be overpowered because of its incredibly significant boost to damage. That's why only Monster races get it and PC races don't. It was even specifically removed from the official PC version Minotaur for this very reason. A Large race effectively gets this exact same bonus to damage.<br />
<br />
For any not wanting to view the forums. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:59, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:There's no reason to believe reach would work differently then it would in 3.5, which means a reach weapon is simply "+1 reach". The flanked/being flanked seems to balance out, so hey, that's OK. Mobility is a weakness, yep. That doesn't mean it's unplayable. You, once again, give deliberately misleading yet "accurate" numbers for the close attacks despite me proving them upthread. If a race can't work for ranged characters or is melee only, that's perfectly alright - the 4e races are incredibly pigeon-holed, "melee brute" is no more restrictive then many of the races already are (see: dwarf: cleric, fighter, maaaaybe wizard and paladin). Many of the races already tell you what you "can't do" - you can't, for example, make an effective halfling fighter, or an effective dragonborn wizard. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:18, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: Wow, your wrong about races and the classes they can or can't be, also how are the number he gives "misleading" they are the correct number I double checked them myself, the points about weapon damage, and races are not meant to have penalties towards certain forms of combat. Just bonuses to a specific type, that are balanced along side the other races [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:10, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::How am I wrong? Please explain. The numbers are misleading because you're not subtracting the squares that the creature themselves take up. Generally, you aren't actually hitting anything occupying those squares. That only occurs in the absolute rarest of cases, and should not be counted. Right now, it doesn't appear to have any penalties - indeed, Large size just gives such large bonuses to melee you'd be stupid to play anything but. I fail to see how this is different with, say, Gnomes and the Wizard class. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:17, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::This is how you where wrong about the races and classes, you can make a descent (Insert Class Here) with Race X, nearlly everytime, with small creatures being the only ones who may possibly not do as good (though a Halfling Tempest fighter does work). Open the players handbook, choose any race, I bet I could make a viable character of nearlly every class. Now onto close bursts. Using a close burst 1 power a medium creature can target a maximum of 8 creatures. A Large creature can target a maximum of 12. A Close Burst 2 damage a maximum of 24 creatures for a medium sized character and 32 for a large. How is that balanced? OH an just incase you need it ehre a illustration. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 01:18, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<center><br />
[[Image:Example.png]]<br />
</center><br />
<br />
:::::A halfling will never be a "decent" wizard, not if you compare it to a gnome wizard. The gnome wizard will utterly dominate him all the time. We have different definitions of "viable", here. At the very least, if you're not getting a bonus from ability scores to something useful, I'm not counting it as viable - monster defenses scale so fast that you practically need that +1 to hit, or at the very least a boost to your other states. Even then, that doesn't matter. If a race is only good for class X, so long as it's <i>balanced</i> with class X, does that honestly matter?<br />
:::::Now, thanks for your illustration. Let's see what *I* said, earlier up page<br />
::::::QUOTE ME: A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32.<br />
::::::QUOTE SEPSIS: Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares.<br />
:::::So no. My math is right, and your "let me draw you an illustration" <i>agrees with what I already said</i>. Yes, I agree that it is bigger, but I'm not entirely convinced that a bigger burst radius is going to make the race overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:24, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::Indeed it does, I didn't state i t was to agree with sepsis that was jsut me checking it out. Course I look like an idiot now. I still think that it will over power the race however. Also you can make a descent halfling wizard. +2 Dex, +2 Cha right? So thats a wand based wizard or one that uses illusions. Just because it wont have a 20 in Intelligence at 1st level does not make it any less viable then the Gnome Wizard. But this of course is an entirley different conversation for us to have else where ;) [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:51, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::::::Ok... I'm actually going to make a decent balance argument here. Looking at the benefits of large size <i>not including the bonus to damage</i> I want to make that clear, <i>not including the bonus to damage</i>, I think things balance out. You've got reach, which is awesome, but you'll need it in any sort of tight corridor situation as if you're on the front lines in a small hall, you're in big trouble (more enemies can get to you, and allies with reach can't attack past you). You've got bigger bursts, yup - though enemies aiming spells at you have more areas where to aim them at, and it's easier to aim them to hit you. Your bigger squares cause you to get tangled in difficult terrain and opportunity attacks more easily. And in any sort of tight space, you're at a disadvantage or even a liability to your party. Overall, I think the whole "You have 4 squares of area, and +1 reach" part of large is an interesting deal - in some cases it would be good, and in some cases it will be bad. That part, IMO, is the part that's going to be campaign dependent (it's only usable in some campaigns. if the author has a campaign that it is usable in, then we shouldn't change it otherwise). The real problem is the bonus damage. This is where the race can easily become overpowered, and THIS is the real problem with Large size. I don't have a problem if the race is only good for meleers, or only good for people who use strength. The problem is if it becomes too good for them. Even though +2 str is pretty flavorful, it may want to be removed. Just giving the race +2 con, and only +2 con may be appropriate. They're then comparable to warforged stat-wise for a strength-using class, and comparible to dragonborn or half-elves for a charisma one. There are, as far as I know, no classes that get +con to damage except for fighters with axes and maces on SOME of their powers. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 13:01, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::::Though I am no expert in 4e balance and didn't bother to read the whole wall of text above this, one thing to consider is the actual utility of the extra close burst squares. So you have 8 extra squares for a close burst 2. You will still need to actually have enemies in that burst. Being large and, thus, less maneuverable, it may be harder to get in a position where you can even use those extra squares to your advantage. On the other side of the argument, you also gain an increase in the overall size of the burst so you can reach creatures that are farther away from each other than a medium creature could. Reach coupled with close burst 2 allows a fighter (are there even any fighter close burst 2 attacks?) to pin down enemies 2 squares away. Now '''that''' is a powerful ability for a defender and something well worth considering. Playtesting is needed to figure this out. I think it is just too difficult to crunch conceptually. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:53, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::: Another thought occurs. A large creature has a bigger burst; but can a large creature be caught within another burst twice? Or maybe four times? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 10:59, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::: No it cannot, it still only counts as a single target.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::Fighters, as far as I know, have very few bursts larger then 1. There's one or two, but not many. Even then, the bursts larger then 1 tend to move the creatures either closer to or further from the fighter. Overall, it really won't help the fighter lock down more foes for long, as he still can't make opportunity attacks except in melee, and he can't mark someone unless he attacks them. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:38, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: Why are you bringing up Fighters? It does matter what class the race could be optimal in, it matters what class it could be in and how its abbilities could be overpowered with said classes. A Giant Wizard for example can take advantage of the close bursts. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:56, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: I brought up fighters because Aarnott did. A giant wizard could take advantage of close bursts, yes, but with absolutely no stat benefit to them, I'd be the race would still end up totally underpowered. Sure, you hit more guys sometimes... but you are also easier to hit with bursts yourself, harder to manuever, take up more space, get in your allies way, are easier to gang up on, and so on. If you're not a melee-using class, being Large size is just not worth it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:12, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::: I give up. Dragon Child wins I'm out of the race. I'm fed up with listening to you when it comes to PC viability. You do not need a same attack stat as one of your races to hbe effecetive in higher levels. That is a fact. But you know better right? And I misse Aarnott's post, it doens't matter how many close burst powers the fighter has it still has them. These are all things we have to consider when it comes to the balance of races. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:23, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::Ok, fine, you won't end up "non-viable", but you won't end up "overpowered", so as long as you don't end up overpowered, it doesn't matter. I just don't think that the Giant will be anywhere NEAR as good as a Gnome wizard. No matter where you draw the viability line, as long as Gnome Wizard is an option, and Giant Wizard isn't as good, then we don't have to worry about it being overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:31, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::: Will you stop waving around that Gnome Wizard like a todler play with his genitals!, They are not the be all and end all of all wizards, I draw the viability line at you can play this race with this class. Because it has some feature that can help out. That feature is the large size and would work great with a wizard with mostly close burst spells. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:35, 3 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hill_Giant_(4e_Race)&diff=365453Talk:Hill Giant (4e Race)2009-06-03T18:23:30Z<p>ShadowyFigure: </p>
<hr />
<div>==A Few Things==<br />
*'''Size:''' No 4e PC Race can be ''Large'', it is highly unbalancing when it comes to things like ''Burst'' areas and ''Weapon Reach'' just to name a few. <br />
*'''Large:''' You should never include a penalty in racial traits, as well the shift in improvised weapon damage seems odd. This entire trait should be rethought and rewritten.<br />
*'''Crush Underfoot:''' This is a bad power. Being only able to effect ''Small'' creatures, and then doing way to much damage. This power could easily disrupt any encounter (particularly if its against a ''Solo'' who happens to be ''Small'', no more little "boss" villians). It to needs to be rethought and rewritten.<br />
Overall I think your trying to convert a monster (ie. ''Hill Giant'') into a race that just won't work. Giants have too many qualities that unbalance them for PC use. Thank you for your time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 16:19, 10 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<br />
'''Comment from the Author:''' <br />
<br />
In Your comment on Large I realize that I can't include, but this is basically "Being Large", as in, "Being Small" for gnomes and halflings. I also disagree with you on races not being Large, only medium or small. I agree they take up space, but I would probably allow it as a GM. And why would it have anything to do with burst?<br />
<br />
I will rethink Crush Underfoot... trying to not make it overpowered. Any suggestions?<br />
<br />
Absconder, the author<br />
<br />
== Response ==<br />
<br />
A ''Large'' creature occupies 4 squares. A standard ''Close Burst'' 2 effects 25 squares, with a ''Large'' creature this increases to 64 squares...a bit overpowered at a basic level. The problems with ''Large'' PC Races is so numerous I could fill pages with the examples of how broken it is. And as said ''Large'' is explicitly against design standards for 4e Races (as well as using it to explain a penalty...penalties are another huge no no). So no matter how you fluff it, if it stays then this article needs the "Design Disclaimer". <br />
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As far as ''Crush Underfoot'', well frankly its kinda dull, I would dump it, and create another power that does less damage and maybe causes a ''Condition''. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 20:35, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Your numbers are off. A standard close burst 2 effects 25 squares, but only 24 if you remove the square the person is taking up. A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32. That's an 8 square difference, true, but the large size brings with it a ton of drawbacks with its wide area. Just because WOTC hasn't done something, doesn't mean it's WRONG. There's no reason to forbid penalties just because WOTC has. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:53, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Ah yes my math was off, so it only adds 16 squares...so its just really unbalanced, not horribly unbalanced. And as I said if the author wishes to include racial penalties and a Large size they can, but they are expressly forbidden in standard 4e design. Those are several of the things the rules were not designed to handle (like unlimited Heroic level flight). If they are used a DM will need to make further modifications as the game progresses to attempt to balance it (which will be hard given the rule set excludes those things and there will not be allowances for them). If these blatant balance issues are not brought into line then this article will need the "Design Disclaimer", it was created to warn potential users that a creation is not unbalanced out of ignorance (the design & developers guides are published every month), but out of choice. So yes it can be done, but the creation will remain unbalanced. This is 4e and when "WotC hasn't done something", you need to look into the reason...don't assume they missed something or are wrong. In this incidence, these issues are not only without precidence but they are specifically stated as being things never ever ever done with a race. Just notice the complete and total lack of large races, and the complete and total lack of racial penalties amongst the official races....this wasn't an oversight, and they have specifically said so. So in these particular areas the reason WotC hasn't done them is because they are "WRONG". -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::You seem to have your math wrong with those squares... again. And again, you can't just say "It's wrong because WOTC says so". You talk about the reason, but don't actually give what it is. If the DM is willing to allow larger than usual corridors to always make room for a giant (or, indeed, be able to use smaller ones to punish them) that removes it as a problem. Not everything has to be for every game. WOTC hasn't done a lot of stuff - there was no +Con +Int race in the PHB, but that doesn't mean if you make one you're automatically wrong. It's a better question to ask WHY racial penalties don't exist (hint: it's because they're pretty much meaningless) or why large creatures don't exist (it's because they won't fit in all games, which is OK if the DM does want him for his game.) [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 14:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::You keep missing the point. It isn't a matter of just using it and saying "its balanced because DMs can deal with it", that dosen't balance something. The fact is Large sized PC races are expressly against 4e design, so nothing official will ever support that trait therefore if this article keeps the Large size it must use the "Design Disclaimer" (warning DMs they will need to make adjustments)...that is all. Nothing says for any reason this can't be done, it just can't claim to be balanced. As for the math I think you are quibbling over a small amount at best...don't nitpick to derail the point, it covers more area then is covered by *any* other race, the plain fact. And thats only one of the problems that is caused because the rules don't account for Large PCs. Again I have no problem with a race being Large (although that seems to be this races "one note"), it just needs to use the disclaimer if it intends to remain unbalanced. No one is saying the author is wrong, we just want to be sure the author understood something (ie. intentionally building a article that requires internal balancing to work in someones game), and that when this is done you either change it or add the Disclaimer. We are trying to maintain a library of well designed and balanced articles for users, not just a place were people can twist core rules and pretend that it all is ok (causing all content to be suspect). If something goes outside the design guidelines it needs to be noted. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 15:33, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::You keep missing my point. If something requires a "Design Disclaimer", stating that it's only good in certain campaigns, that does NOT mean it's unbalanced. It's only for certain campaigns. There's a huge, huge difference. And yes, it does cover more area, but that had both strengths and weaknesses that can be balanced together. You keep using the word unbalanced when it really, really doesn't apply. Is the race overly strong compared to other races? Is it overly weak? If not, it is not unbalanced. It doesn't require internal "balancing" - it's not like you need to specifically use this race's strength or weakness. It requires accommodation. That's a huge difference. I'm not saying large isn't unbalanced - I'm not coming down one way or the other. I'm just saying that your reasoning is faulty. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:25, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::Well this is actually both. Large size races are expressly forbidden in the design standards of 4e, and its used "only for certain campaigns" (bad idea...all creations should appeal to as many gamers as possible, otherwise its going to be a passing fad). And I have a feeling you do not understand the 4e usage of the term "unbalanced". In 4e "unbalanced" means when compared to other articles of the same type (monsters, races, items, etc.) they must be on equal footing with each other (so no race should be inherently weaker or stronger then any other). If they are not on equal footing they are called "unbalanced" (this usage of the term is used so often by the designers it is sickening) if it was just bad mechanics it would be called "broken". So yes giving a race Large size, when no other race has the same trait (that is occupying more then one square) it is "unbalanced", and it requires DMs to make corrections in other rules as they go along (or as they say in 4e "requires internal balancing") these are polite terms that aptly describe the situations. I didn't invent the usage, this has been in effect since 4e first was released. I'm sorry if you missed it, and are confused by the use, but it is proper. If something requires "accomodation" in 4e it is considered "unbalanced" (there is no difference at all). But as I said I have no care either way, but if this is going to use a trait that goes directly against design standards, then it will need the "Design Disclaimer". Frankly this has become a pointless disscussion, I have no need to try and explain every thought...nor will I. If you want read the designer's blogs and the design/development logs and maybe it will be clearer. It is now up to the author to decide what he wants to do, either way this article needs to be completed, so we can all move on. Thank you for the spirited discussion, but I fear we have reached an impass, it now lies with the author to make some final decisions. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:30, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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BTW, here is what the template looks like...as you can see it says nothing about being good only in certain campaigns, just that the standard rules may not work with parts of the article.<br />
<br />
{{Design Disclaimer|4e}}<br />
<br />
:::::::All creations should appeal to as many people as possible?! What?! What?! No! All creations should be usable and balanced in the game they're set in. If I want to include hobgoblins as a playable race in my game, and other people think they should be evil creations only, I shouldn't have to put some fucking disclaimer on my page saying it's "potentially unbalanced". That's honestly what you're suggesting, and it's bullshit. Let's use the words to mean what they actually MEAN, ok? Something that's unbalanced is not balanced compared to other things of its level. Something that's broken is BROKEN - it doesn't work, or grinds the game to a screeching halt. It is not unbalanced - it does not make the race too strong or too weak <i>by itself</i>. You keep stating this as if it was fact, and the only proof you offer is "No other race does this, and the 4e designers haven't done it yet.". You say that it requires correction in the rules - what rules? Note that "The campaign style happens to accommodate large characters" is not a correction in the rules. Give an example of houserules a 4e DM would have to make. If you want to make claims and not be called on them, don't make them. If you don't want to have to explain your reasoning, don't share your thoughts. If you want to keep citing these blogs - <i>link them</i>. In other words, I'm calling a big-ass "CITE?" to you. You keep saying it's unbalanced. Prove it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:27, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::As I said it is all right there for everyone to see it is far from hidden (In fact I made a Thread about this race on the forums to help with this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330). But as now that you have started swearing, and contiunue to YELL, this conversation ends. You are now just being ignorant and rude, and I don't need to deal with morons. If you want to argue instead of discuss...then please leave. I'm done with you and your attitude. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 07:39, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::This is how it works. You make an argument, you back it up. You don't back it up, nobody listens to you. I could very well say that being Large is totally balanced, because I said so, and that's just as valid as your argument. I'm not even saying it's balanced - I haven't actually come down either way. YOU'RE the one with the attitude, expecting others to automatically listen whenever you say something, and then cry and whine when you don't get your way. A discussion involves actually DISCUSSING, and if you don't want people to call you on what you say, don't post to discussion threads. I'm sorry if not accepting you as lord god of D&D makes me a "moron". [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:51, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::There is no need to look through thousands of blog entries, you just use the precedence set by every other single rsce they have released. Notice there are no Large PC Races even Large monsters given PC stats (ie. the Minotaur) are resized to Medium. Gee wonder if everyone at WotC missed something...or maybe they did say what I said they did, and have made they conscious decision not to include them because PC rules and powers are not designed to use a Large size (Monsters and PC Races are not written in an exchanable format like 3e anymore). If you don't have time to read (like I don't have time to teach you 4e design) use logic and listen to those who have read the material. I gain nor lose by anyone listening to me. I try to guide people in creating articles that are fun for everyone to use and that is all. I could care less what an author does with their creation, but everything posted reflects on the entire community and yes I hate to be made to look stupid because someone else dosen't understand a basic 4e design element. So far you have put forth no proof that you are right in any way. Nothing is backed up at all. Hit the blogs and post the question, they will answer in very short order. Find out...don't sit in your own world and think you figured out something better minds then yours already determined. And no your a complete and utter moron because you aren't even willing to try and learn, and you use foul language to try and win a fight. Well enjoy, but this is it. I will never be responding to you again, as you have proven you aren't even close enough to being worthy of my (or anyones really) time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:32, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::For swearing and being rude above both [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] and [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] acquire a warning each. It's not too serious though; three warnings result in a one week ban however hopefully that will not be the case. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:33, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Damage==<br />
<br />
Crush Underfoot is incredibly powerful, a 3d10 attack at level 1. That is more powerful than the level 13 brute Hill Giant in the MM (which has a 1d10+5 attack and a 2d6+5 attack). I'd suggest a 1d10/2d10/3d10 progression for 1st/11th/21st levels. [[User:Pdboddy|Pdboddy]] 13:40, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Balance ==<br />
<br />
<br />
* Large sized is ok, you take up more room, and the hill giants lack of racial traits kinda balances out with the higher damage with weapons, maybe however decrease the speed to 5? <br />
* The racial power is very powerful, I think maybe if you took a apporach simmilar to that of the Dragonborns Dragonbreath this could be easily balanced.<br />
<br />
{{4e Power<br />
|name=Crush Underfoot<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Giant<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=The goblin screamed as you brought your foot up. He got so annoying you decided to put your foot down. Right on top of him.<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|range=Meelee<br />
|target=One Medium or smaller creature.<br />
|attack=Strength +2<br />
|defense=Reflex<br />
|hit=1d8 + Strength Modifier damage.<br />
|extra= Increase to +4 and 2d8 + Strength Modifier damage at 11th level, and +5 and 3d8 + Strength Modifier Damage.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
:???...So a miss can cause more damage then a hit? I don't think the to-hit bonus should scale (they will have high strengths already, which will increase as they level), and if it must then +3 at ''Paragon'' and +4 at ''Epic''. But with the strength scores being what they will it is overkill. Overall this is still a kinda dull racial power, what if the target and all creatures within a Close Burst 1 (except for the PC) were knocked Prone? This might make it more intresting and at least a little usable by Ranged classes. As for the "Large" size; nothing done at this level will allow that trait to be balanced, the rest of the rule set for PCs is not designed to incorporate it...it will bring only headaches to DMs not properly prepared to deal with it. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:59, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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: Sorry, I fail to see what your problem with the Large Size is, it doesn't really effect anything par the damage of weapons and the close burst. Also not all racial powers are meant to be useful for every single class, your point on the +2 bonus doesn't really stand either, the Dragonborn gets Strength +2 VS. Reflex, yet the three classes given as examples and favored classes of the dragonborn will mean they have a high strength bonus.I meant to drop the miss bit.<br />
<br />
::Its not "my" problem with Large size, its the designers. They feel it is unbalancing therefore they have said no PC races will be Large. That given, it means nothing that is published will ever account for a Large sized PC, requiring DM modification to include. Now as I said the author can leave it, but it is unbalanced, no way around it. Therefore if it stays this article just needs to add the "Design Disclaimer" template to it and that is all. As for the power, well the Dragonborn power is an AoE that effects all creatures (friend and foe), so the tactical issue that comes in play is the fact your going to most likely hit what you breath at, even if its an ally. An attack directed at a single foe dosen't have this issue, and should not be as accurate (or scale slower). Of course if it had a wider effect (such as what I suggested) leaving the high to-hit would be fine. Lastly official racial powers are designed to be useful for all classes. Racial powers should not "pigeon-hole" a Player into a specific role. Really look at all the official racial powers and think about how a melee or ranged character would use it. If you find one that is truely limited to one type please show me, so far they all are equally useable by both types of classes. Now HB racial powers may do this because sometimes a race is just too narrow to be much more then one type or the other, and while WotC would just not create the race, one of your Players may want to play it...so it gets made. Nothing wrong there, just in the spirit it is nice to see racial powers that everyone can enjoy. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 08:08, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: Sorry if I came of a bit snarky, it was not meant to be an attack, I didn't realise they had said this about large races however. and i do see what you mean by racial powers[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:27, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Thats ok, I'm sure I sounded snarky myself. No offense was ever intended, so lets move on. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 12:43, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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=Author=<br />
<br />
:Thank you all, I read through all the comments, and am working on some ideas to improve this race. Sepsis, I still think it's possible to make homebrew rules for Large, so I will not change that... not that I don't see your point. I realize it's against standards, but as a DM, I'll make my own homebrew rules and it should be fine for the purposes of my adventures. I'm working on a couple different ways to make Crush Underfoot less powerful... I should have whipped something up by this time next week! Thanks for your input -- [[User:Absconder|Absconder]]<br />
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::You may want to keep an eye on these Threads: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330 -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 13:55, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::The WOTC boards of places of scum and stupidity. If an actual argument can be made, it can be posted here. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:54, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Wow that answers a lot, an ignorant rant boy. Now I see, another..."I'm smarter then the designers, those morons." type guy. So your opinions really are completly worthless. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:35, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::OK that was just plain rude on my part. I have got to apologize. This is why I hate internet "arguments". I let myself get too angry with you. I should just take a deep breath. I'm willing to disagree, but I shouldn't drop down to the level of insults and such. We don't have to like each other, but we also don't have to resort to mudslinging. Again I am sorry for just being insulting that is beneath me, and I hate to think I would be lumped in that catagory. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 10:05, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::I didn't say a SINGLE THING about the designers. You are either not reading what I said, or are outright lying to make me look bad. In any case, please stop it. I said that the WOTC BOARDS were filled with idiots, which they pretty much are- this is a place where doing basic math gets you shouted down as a "roll-player". This is a place where, when I suggested that Frank and K material be used for 3e games, I had someone openly and graphically fetishize about my death, and have a moderator be totally OK with it, because I was a "dirty munchkin". So yeah. That place sucks. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:22, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
=Large=<br />
Just a few of the reasons why Large does not work in 4e:<br />
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* The question of reach. How much reach do you have naturally? 2 squares? Do having a reach weapon extend that to 4 squares? If you choose to give a large size creature a larger reach, you give them absolutely unprecedented control of the battlefield right from level 1.<br />
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* Flanking. A medium creature has 9 ways of standing adjacent to another medium creature to flank. A large creature has 12 ways of standing adjacent to a medium creature to flank.<br />
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* Being flanked. A medium creature can be flanked from 9 positions by another medium creature. A large creature can be flanked from 12 positions by a medium creature.<br />
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* Mobility. Large creature can't fit through spaces in combat that medium creatures can. (Example: Two medium opponents with 3 squares between them that you need to get past? Well a medium creature can get through there without provoking opportunity attacks. A large creature cannot.)<br />
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* Close attacks are much more versatile and powerful for a large creature than for a medium creature. ''Bursts:'' A medium creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 9 squares, up to 9 targets. A large creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 12 squares, up to 9 targets. Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares. Close burst 3 results in 48 squares versus 63 squares. ''Blasts:'' A medium creature has 16 ways to orient a Close Blast 3. A large creature has 25 ways to orient a Close Blast 3.<br />
<br />
*Large size does have both bonuses and penalties, the mistake should not be made that they balance each other out. Many of these bonuses and penalties apply to melee characters but not ranged characters or ranged characters but not melee character. Furthermore, another 4E PC race design philosophy that Large size breaks is that races are supposed to provide bonuses and not penalties, tell you what you can do and not what you can't. Racial penalties have no place in 4E.<br />
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* Weapon damage (PHB pg.220). The ''Oversized'' racial trait is almost universally considered to be overpowered because of its incredibly significant boost to damage. That's why only Monster races get it and PC races don't. It was even specifically removed from the official PC version Minotaur for this very reason. A Large race effectively gets this exact same bonus to damage.<br />
<br />
For any not wanting to view the forums. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:59, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:There's no reason to believe reach would work differently then it would in 3.5, which means a reach weapon is simply "+1 reach". The flanked/being flanked seems to balance out, so hey, that's OK. Mobility is a weakness, yep. That doesn't mean it's unplayable. You, once again, give deliberately misleading yet "accurate" numbers for the close attacks despite me proving them upthread. If a race can't work for ranged characters or is melee only, that's perfectly alright - the 4e races are incredibly pigeon-holed, "melee brute" is no more restrictive then many of the races already are (see: dwarf: cleric, fighter, maaaaybe wizard and paladin). Many of the races already tell you what you "can't do" - you can't, for example, make an effective halfling fighter, or an effective dragonborn wizard. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:18, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: Wow, your wrong about races and the classes they can or can't be, also how are the number he gives "misleading" they are the correct number I double checked them myself, the points about weapon damage, and races are not meant to have penalties towards certain forms of combat. Just bonuses to a specific type, that are balanced along side the other races [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:10, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::How am I wrong? Please explain. The numbers are misleading because you're not subtracting the squares that the creature themselves take up. Generally, you aren't actually hitting anything occupying those squares. That only occurs in the absolute rarest of cases, and should not be counted. Right now, it doesn't appear to have any penalties - indeed, Large size just gives such large bonuses to melee you'd be stupid to play anything but. I fail to see how this is different with, say, Gnomes and the Wizard class. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:17, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::This is how you where wrong about the races and classes, you can make a descent (Insert Class Here) with Race X, nearlly everytime, with small creatures being the only ones who may possibly not do as good (though a Halfling Tempest fighter does work). Open the players handbook, choose any race, I bet I could make a viable character of nearlly every class. Now onto close bursts. Using a close burst 1 power a medium creature can target a maximum of 8 creatures. A Large creature can target a maximum of 12. A Close Burst 2 damage a maximum of 24 creatures for a medium sized character and 32 for a large. How is that balanced? OH an just incase you need it ehre a illustration. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 01:18, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<center><br />
[[Image:Example.png]]<br />
</center><br />
<br />
:::::A halfling will never be a "decent" wizard, not if you compare it to a gnome wizard. The gnome wizard will utterly dominate him all the time. We have different definitions of "viable", here. At the very least, if you're not getting a bonus from ability scores to something useful, I'm not counting it as viable - monster defenses scale so fast that you practically need that +1 to hit, or at the very least a boost to your other states. Even then, that doesn't matter. If a race is only good for class X, so long as it's <i>balanced</i> with class X, does that honestly matter?<br />
:::::Now, thanks for your illustration. Let's see what *I* said, earlier up page<br />
::::::QUOTE ME: A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32.<br />
::::::QUOTE SEPSIS: Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares.<br />
:::::So no. My math is right, and your "let me draw you an illustration" <i>agrees with what I already said</i>. Yes, I agree that it is bigger, but I'm not entirely convinced that a bigger burst radius is going to make the race overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:24, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::Indeed it does, I didn't state i t was to agree with sepsis that was jsut me checking it out. Course I look like an idiot now. I still think that it will over power the race however. Also you can make a descent halfling wizard. +2 Dex, +2 Cha right? So thats a wand based wizard or one that uses illusions. Just because it wont have a 20 in Intelligence at 1st level does not make it any less viable then the Gnome Wizard. But this of course is an entirley different conversation for us to have else where ;) [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:51, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::::::Ok... I'm actually going to make a decent balance argument here. Looking at the benefits of large size <i>not including the bonus to damage</i> I want to make that clear, <i>not including the bonus to damage</i>, I think things balance out. You've got reach, which is awesome, but you'll need it in any sort of tight corridor situation as if you're on the front lines in a small hall, you're in big trouble (more enemies can get to you, and allies with reach can't attack past you). You've got bigger bursts, yup - though enemies aiming spells at you have more areas where to aim them at, and it's easier to aim them to hit you. Your bigger squares cause you to get tangled in difficult terrain and opportunity attacks more easily. And in any sort of tight space, you're at a disadvantage or even a liability to your party. Overall, I think the whole "You have 4 squares of area, and +1 reach" part of large is an interesting deal - in some cases it would be good, and in some cases it will be bad. That part, IMO, is the part that's going to be campaign dependent (it's only usable in some campaigns. if the author has a campaign that it is usable in, then we shouldn't change it otherwise). The real problem is the bonus damage. This is where the race can easily become overpowered, and THIS is the real problem with Large size. I don't have a problem if the race is only good for meleers, or only good for people who use strength. The problem is if it becomes too good for them. Even though +2 str is pretty flavorful, it may want to be removed. Just giving the race +2 con, and only +2 con may be appropriate. They're then comparable to warforged stat-wise for a strength-using class, and comparible to dragonborn or half-elves for a charisma one. There are, as far as I know, no classes that get +con to damage except for fighters with axes and maces on SOME of their powers. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 13:01, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::::Though I am no expert in 4e balance and didn't bother to read the whole wall of text above this, one thing to consider is the actual utility of the extra close burst squares. So you have 8 extra squares for a close burst 2. You will still need to actually have enemies in that burst. Being large and, thus, less maneuverable, it may be harder to get in a position where you can even use those extra squares to your advantage. On the other side of the argument, you also gain an increase in the overall size of the burst so you can reach creatures that are farther away from each other than a medium creature could. Reach coupled with close burst 2 allows a fighter (are there even any fighter close burst 2 attacks?) to pin down enemies 2 squares away. Now '''that''' is a powerful ability for a defender and something well worth considering. Playtesting is needed to figure this out. I think it is just too difficult to crunch conceptually. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:53, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::: Another thought occurs. A large creature has a bigger burst; but can a large creature be caught within another burst twice? Or maybe four times? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 10:59, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::: No it cannot, it still only counts as a single target.<br />
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:::::::::::Fighters, as far as I know, have very few bursts larger then 1. There's one or two, but not many. Even then, the bursts larger then 1 tend to move the creatures either closer to or further from the fighter. Overall, it really won't help the fighter lock down more foes for long, as he still can't make opportunity attacks except in melee, and he can't mark someone unless he attacks them. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:38, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::: Why are you bringing up Fighters? It does matter what class the race could be optimal in, it matters what class it could be in and how its abbilities could be overpowered with said classes. A Giant Wizard for example can take advantage of the close bursts. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:56, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::: I brought up fighters because Aarnott did. A giant wizard could take advantage of close bursts, yes, but with absolutely no stat benefit to them, I'd be the race would still end up totally underpowered. Sure, you hit more guys sometimes... but you are also easier to hit with bursts yourself, harder to manuever, take up more space, get in your allies way, are easier to gang up on, and so on. If you're not a melee-using class, being Large size is just not worth it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:12, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::: I give up. Dragon Child wins I'm out of the race. I'm fed up with listening to you when it comes to PC viability. You do not need a same attack stat as one of your races to hbe effecetive in higher levels. That is a fact. But you know better right? And I misse Aarnott's post, it doens't matter how many close burst powers the fighter has it still has them. These are all things we have to consider when it comes to the balance of races. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:23, 3 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Arachonomicon;_the_Book_of_Spiderkind_(4e_Sourcebook)&diff=365452Talk:Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)2009-06-03T18:20:50Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Any More Graphics */</p>
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<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
== To Be Added ==<br />
<br />
This is a list of things I will add to this sourcebook. If anybody has ideas, please share them [[Discussion:Does anybody know of any 3rd edition stuff that I could convert for the Arachonomican?|here]] or add them to the list (I will remove things I don't want to add). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 03:29, 9 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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<tasks><br />
[x] [[Spider Disciple (4e Paragon Path)|Spider Disciple]]<br />
[x] Templated Spiders ([[Husk Spider (4e Template)|Husk Spider]] and [[Celestial Spider (4e Template)|Celestial Spider]])<br />
[x] [[Chosen of the Spider Queen (4e Epic Destiny)|Chosen of the Spider Queen]]<br />
</tasks><br />
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== Featured Article Nomination ==<br />
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This article and all of its associated content is the best homebrew 4e addition we have at this point. Sam Kay has done an excellent job in putting up his information in a easily navigational way and said material is very well written and done. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 10:36, 25 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; As per above &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 10:36, 25 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I have seen this source book develop from the begining and have talked and discussed with Sam countless time about it, also I'm the graphics designer for the cover and future PDF ''':D'''. Overall Sam has brilliant work here that I think only he will surpass until some home prodigy appears. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 14:02, 27 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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<s>'''Comment'''</s> &mdash; You do know that it's not finished yet? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:47, 25 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:And probably won't be for some time! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:47, 25 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::Yes, but I believe it is already grand enough to warrant atleast the discussion that an FA nom can provide, and I truly believe it is worthy of inclusion in the wiki's top brass. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 11:14, 25 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::Apart from a few <s>example encouners</s>, only the <s>drow</s> and <s>drider</s> creature entries, the sourcebook are left to do, and then it is completed. Huzzah! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:53, 25 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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::::It is finally completed! Huzzah! --&nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid; -moz-border<br />
radius:10px">[[Image:SamAutosig.JPG]]'''[[User:Sam Kay|<span style="-moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Sam Kay </span>''']][[User talk:Sam Kay|<span style=" -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Sam Kay|<span style="">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Sam Kay|<span style=" -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 12:41, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::: Huzzah! Congrats I know you have been working hard on this. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 13:01, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Download? ==<br />
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Can I download this anywhere as a PDF? One of my players wants to use this, but I really don't want him to have to have the internet is a dispute comes up, because that is sometimes not possible for us. Thank you!<br />
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:As this sourcebook is being written, it is also being copied into a word document. Once the sourcebook is complete, the word document will be available to download and print (though it will be fairly large). For now, however, you can find printable versions of each article (go to the article, and click "printable version" on the toolbox section of the navigation thingy). Just print out everything he wishes to use, and have it on the table while you play (that is what I do). Oh, and if he does try out this sourcebook, thank him for me and let me know how it works out! --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 05:37, 27 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::Wow. If you need any help Sam, I have software that can assist in making the layouts so that the eventual pdf will be searchable and have the table of contents and such. Though I'm sure you have the ability to turn the word into a basic pdf. Anyone can download primopdf for free. It'll be a nice addition once its downloadable. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 07:38, 27 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::: Probably wont be nescesarry after I remake the cover for the source book one of the thing I'm working on for Kay will be a pdf. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]]<br />
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== Draegloth? ==<br />
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Seeing as you've done the drider, can we have the draegloth as a race here, too? The supplement as it is is cool, but the draegloth were my favorites out of the 3.5 supps. ^w^ --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 18:49, 28 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:The plan is (and has always been) to do draegloths (along with chitines and ettercaps) as playable monster races in the campains (or maybe monsters) chapter. The draegloth should be in line with a player race (maybe with afew racial feats in tow), so fear not. You could play one. As a side note, I'm also doing rules for the ritual needed to create a draegloth in the campains chapter. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 13:19, 29 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::Yes! Draegloth for win! @w@ --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 18:57, 29 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::[[Draegloth (4e Creature)|Here]]. Lots of draegloth. And playable draegloth (with feats)! Even the draegloth creation ritual. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 06:03, 3 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Any More Graphics ==<br />
<br />
Sam I was wondering if you need any more graphics done for the book? [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 03:54, 30 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:Ah, sorry, one thing. The "By Sam Kay" and "D&D Wiki" are off center in the logo for this book. The top title may be to. Not sure. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 14:17, 12 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::The title is (I've already checked), but that is fine; the titles etc. on 4e books are also off centre, because of the spine (I checked that too). The off centreness of the title, author (i.e. me!) and "D&D Wiki" therefore fits in with the rulebooks it is emulating. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:52, 12 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::I don't want to sound rude however I really think the image could be improved. What are your thoughts [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]], or do you think it is good as is? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:02, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::: Yes it could be improved, as i amde that graphic, and i know i could have amde it better, time is the issue here. I have exams right now. What I will most likely do is, when me and Sam Kay finish our campaign setting, updating the arachonmicon cover to be simmilar to what i am planning for the covers of the AoW Players Guide and Campaign Guide. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:20, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== One class each? ==<br />
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I must be starting to sound demanding by now, but I'm getting curious. Are you planning on making a leader and/or defender for the arachane source, too, or is it just going to be the two you've outlined? --[[User:Ddragon Necrophades|Ddragon Necrophades]] 16:03, 31 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:Just the two. I was thinking of others, but I deemed it unessasary (technically, divine characters who gain their powers from one or other of the spider queens are drawing power from the great web, as that is where the spider queens get their power from). Essentially, clerics and paladins of Arachne or Lolth are the arachane defenders and controllers! I suppose that powers for the cleric/paladin of the spider queen might be an idea... but the radiant powers in the PhB would easily work for followers of the queen of the twilight web, and I'll be sorting evil clerics/paladins in my next project (perfect for followers of Lolth), so it is really unnessasary. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 16:44, 31 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
<font color="gray"><br />
'''Power -4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because this had a lot of help, but not a lot of stuff for the magical spider races.<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it was nicely worded, but still able to be comprehended by the not so smart people that use this.<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because everything was easy to find<br />
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'''Flavor - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because even though this is a cool book, it isnt that original. the model dungeons and dragons books of the necronomicon have been beat badly.<br />
</font color><br />
Im gonna have to disagree with the ratings on flavor, this sourcebook has so much more orignal content then books like Libris Mortis, and Dracomicon which tend to have repeated through the editions [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 04:12, 4 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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:Just one thing; sourcebooks have the same rating system as the campaign settings (out of 5, based on completeness), not the same rating system as classes. I'm also not sure about what you mean about "not alot of stuff for the magical spider races". There are alot more drow feats than there are racial feats for any individual race in the PHB. There is plenty of other stuff, too. 2 classes, over nearly 160 powers, 22 paragon paths, 1 epic destiny, 120 feats and afew magic items. --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 13:34, 4 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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==Rating==<br />
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I give this soucebook a 5/5, because it is obvious how much time was put into this sourcebook and its quality, definitly some of the best work on the DnD Wiki --[[User:Storm Elf5|Storm Elf5]] 19:41, 16 May 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigurehttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hill_Giant_(4e_Race)&diff=365441Talk:Hill Giant (4e Race)2009-06-03T17:56:54Z<p>ShadowyFigure: /* Large */</p>
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<div>==A Few Things==<br />
*'''Size:''' No 4e PC Race can be ''Large'', it is highly unbalancing when it comes to things like ''Burst'' areas and ''Weapon Reach'' just to name a few. <br />
*'''Large:''' You should never include a penalty in racial traits, as well the shift in improvised weapon damage seems odd. This entire trait should be rethought and rewritten.<br />
*'''Crush Underfoot:''' This is a bad power. Being only able to effect ''Small'' creatures, and then doing way to much damage. This power could easily disrupt any encounter (particularly if its against a ''Solo'' who happens to be ''Small'', no more little "boss" villians). It to needs to be rethought and rewritten.<br />
Overall I think your trying to convert a monster (ie. ''Hill Giant'') into a race that just won't work. Giants have too many qualities that unbalance them for PC use. Thank you for your time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 16:19, 10 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment from the Author:''' <br />
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In Your comment on Large I realize that I can't include, but this is basically "Being Large", as in, "Being Small" for gnomes and halflings. I also disagree with you on races not being Large, only medium or small. I agree they take up space, but I would probably allow it as a GM. And why would it have anything to do with burst?<br />
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I will rethink Crush Underfoot... trying to not make it overpowered. Any suggestions?<br />
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Absconder, the author<br />
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== Response ==<br />
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A ''Large'' creature occupies 4 squares. A standard ''Close Burst'' 2 effects 25 squares, with a ''Large'' creature this increases to 64 squares...a bit overpowered at a basic level. The problems with ''Large'' PC Races is so numerous I could fill pages with the examples of how broken it is. And as said ''Large'' is explicitly against design standards for 4e Races (as well as using it to explain a penalty...penalties are another huge no no). So no matter how you fluff it, if it stays then this article needs the "Design Disclaimer". <br />
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As far as ''Crush Underfoot'', well frankly its kinda dull, I would dump it, and create another power that does less damage and maybe causes a ''Condition''. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 20:35, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Your numbers are off. A standard close burst 2 effects 25 squares, but only 24 if you remove the square the person is taking up. A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32. That's an 8 square difference, true, but the large size brings with it a ton of drawbacks with its wide area. Just because WOTC hasn't done something, doesn't mean it's WRONG. There's no reason to forbid penalties just because WOTC has. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:53, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Ah yes my math was off, so it only adds 16 squares...so its just really unbalanced, not horribly unbalanced. And as I said if the author wishes to include racial penalties and a Large size they can, but they are expressly forbidden in standard 4e design. Those are several of the things the rules were not designed to handle (like unlimited Heroic level flight). If they are used a DM will need to make further modifications as the game progresses to attempt to balance it (which will be hard given the rule set excludes those things and there will not be allowances for them). If these blatant balance issues are not brought into line then this article will need the "Design Disclaimer", it was created to warn potential users that a creation is not unbalanced out of ignorance (the design & developers guides are published every month), but out of choice. So yes it can be done, but the creation will remain unbalanced. This is 4e and when "WotC hasn't done something", you need to look into the reason...don't assume they missed something or are wrong. In this incidence, these issues are not only without precidence but they are specifically stated as being things never ever ever done with a race. Just notice the complete and total lack of large races, and the complete and total lack of racial penalties amongst the official races....this wasn't an oversight, and they have specifically said so. So in these particular areas the reason WotC hasn't done them is because they are "WRONG". -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::You seem to have your math wrong with those squares... again. And again, you can't just say "It's wrong because WOTC says so". You talk about the reason, but don't actually give what it is. If the DM is willing to allow larger than usual corridors to always make room for a giant (or, indeed, be able to use smaller ones to punish them) that removes it as a problem. Not everything has to be for every game. WOTC hasn't done a lot of stuff - there was no +Con +Int race in the PHB, but that doesn't mean if you make one you're automatically wrong. It's a better question to ask WHY racial penalties don't exist (hint: it's because they're pretty much meaningless) or why large creatures don't exist (it's because they won't fit in all games, which is OK if the DM does want him for his game.) [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 14:29, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::You keep missing the point. It isn't a matter of just using it and saying "its balanced because DMs can deal with it", that dosen't balance something. The fact is Large sized PC races are expressly against 4e design, so nothing official will ever support that trait therefore if this article keeps the Large size it must use the "Design Disclaimer" (warning DMs they will need to make adjustments)...that is all. Nothing says for any reason this can't be done, it just can't claim to be balanced. As for the math I think you are quibbling over a small amount at best...don't nitpick to derail the point, it covers more area then is covered by *any* other race, the plain fact. And thats only one of the problems that is caused because the rules don't account for Large PCs. Again I have no problem with a race being Large (although that seems to be this races "one note"), it just needs to use the disclaimer if it intends to remain unbalanced. No one is saying the author is wrong, we just want to be sure the author understood something (ie. intentionally building a article that requires internal balancing to work in someones game), and that when this is done you either change it or add the Disclaimer. We are trying to maintain a library of well designed and balanced articles for users, not just a place were people can twist core rules and pretend that it all is ok (causing all content to be suspect). If something goes outside the design guidelines it needs to be noted. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 15:33, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::You keep missing my point. If something requires a "Design Disclaimer", stating that it's only good in certain campaigns, that does NOT mean it's unbalanced. It's only for certain campaigns. There's a huge, huge difference. And yes, it does cover more area, but that had both strengths and weaknesses that can be balanced together. You keep using the word unbalanced when it really, really doesn't apply. Is the race overly strong compared to other races? Is it overly weak? If not, it is not unbalanced. It doesn't require internal "balancing" - it's not like you need to specifically use this race's strength or weakness. It requires accommodation. That's a huge difference. I'm not saying large isn't unbalanced - I'm not coming down one way or the other. I'm just saying that your reasoning is faulty. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:25, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::Well this is actually both. Large size races are expressly forbidden in the design standards of 4e, and its used "only for certain campaigns" (bad idea...all creations should appeal to as many gamers as possible, otherwise its going to be a passing fad). And I have a feeling you do not understand the 4e usage of the term "unbalanced". In 4e "unbalanced" means when compared to other articles of the same type (monsters, races, items, etc.) they must be on equal footing with each other (so no race should be inherently weaker or stronger then any other). If they are not on equal footing they are called "unbalanced" (this usage of the term is used so often by the designers it is sickening) if it was just bad mechanics it would be called "broken". So yes giving a race Large size, when no other race has the same trait (that is occupying more then one square) it is "unbalanced", and it requires DMs to make corrections in other rules as they go along (or as they say in 4e "requires internal balancing") these are polite terms that aptly describe the situations. I didn't invent the usage, this has been in effect since 4e first was released. I'm sorry if you missed it, and are confused by the use, but it is proper. If something requires "accomodation" in 4e it is considered "unbalanced" (there is no difference at all). But as I said I have no care either way, but if this is going to use a trait that goes directly against design standards, then it will need the "Design Disclaimer". Frankly this has become a pointless disscussion, I have no need to try and explain every thought...nor will I. If you want read the designer's blogs and the design/development logs and maybe it will be clearer. It is now up to the author to decide what he wants to do, either way this article needs to be completed, so we can all move on. Thank you for the spirited discussion, but I fear we have reached an impass, it now lies with the author to make some final decisions. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:30, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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BTW, here is what the template looks like...as you can see it says nothing about being good only in certain campaigns, just that the standard rules may not work with parts of the article.<br />
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{{Design Disclaimer|4e}}<br />
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:::::::All creations should appeal to as many people as possible?! What?! What?! No! All creations should be usable and balanced in the game they're set in. If I want to include hobgoblins as a playable race in my game, and other people think they should be evil creations only, I shouldn't have to put some fucking disclaimer on my page saying it's "potentially unbalanced". That's honestly what you're suggesting, and it's bullshit. Let's use the words to mean what they actually MEAN, ok? Something that's unbalanced is not balanced compared to other things of its level. Something that's broken is BROKEN - it doesn't work, or grinds the game to a screeching halt. It is not unbalanced - it does not make the race too strong or too weak <i>by itself</i>. You keep stating this as if it was fact, and the only proof you offer is "No other race does this, and the 4e designers haven't done it yet.". You say that it requires correction in the rules - what rules? Note that "The campaign style happens to accommodate large characters" is not a correction in the rules. Give an example of houserules a 4e DM would have to make. If you want to make claims and not be called on them, don't make them. If you don't want to have to explain your reasoning, don't share your thoughts. If you want to keep citing these blogs - <i>link them</i>. In other words, I'm calling a big-ass "CITE?" to you. You keep saying it's unbalanced. Prove it. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 15:27, 27 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::As I said it is all right there for everyone to see it is far from hidden (In fact I made a Thread about this race on the forums to help with this: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330). But as now that you have started swearing, and contiunue to YELL, this conversation ends. You are now just being ignorant and rude, and I don't need to deal with morons. If you want to argue instead of discuss...then please leave. I'm done with you and your attitude. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 07:39, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::This is how it works. You make an argument, you back it up. You don't back it up, nobody listens to you. I could very well say that being Large is totally balanced, because I said so, and that's just as valid as your argument. I'm not even saying it's balanced - I haven't actually come down either way. YOU'RE the one with the attitude, expecting others to automatically listen whenever you say something, and then cry and whine when you don't get your way. A discussion involves actually DISCUSSING, and if you don't want people to call you on what you say, don't post to discussion threads. I'm sorry if not accepting you as lord god of D&D makes me a "moron". [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:51, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::There is no need to look through thousands of blog entries, you just use the precedence set by every other single rsce they have released. Notice there are no Large PC Races even Large monsters given PC stats (ie. the Minotaur) are resized to Medium. Gee wonder if everyone at WotC missed something...or maybe they did say what I said they did, and have made they conscious decision not to include them because PC rules and powers are not designed to use a Large size (Monsters and PC Races are not written in an exchanable format like 3e anymore). If you don't have time to read (like I don't have time to teach you 4e design) use logic and listen to those who have read the material. I gain nor lose by anyone listening to me. I try to guide people in creating articles that are fun for everyone to use and that is all. I could care less what an author does with their creation, but everything posted reflects on the entire community and yes I hate to be made to look stupid because someone else dosen't understand a basic 4e design element. So far you have put forth no proof that you are right in any way. Nothing is backed up at all. Hit the blogs and post the question, they will answer in very short order. Find out...don't sit in your own world and think you figured out something better minds then yours already determined. And no your a complete and utter moron because you aren't even willing to try and learn, and you use foul language to try and win a fight. Well enjoy, but this is it. I will never be responding to you again, as you have proven you aren't even close enough to being worthy of my (or anyones really) time. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:32, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::For swearing and being rude above both [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] and [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] acquire a warning each. It's not too serious though; three warnings result in a one week ban however hopefully that will not be the case. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:33, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Damage==<br />
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Crush Underfoot is incredibly powerful, a 3d10 attack at level 1. That is more powerful than the level 13 brute Hill Giant in the MM (which has a 1d10+5 attack and a 2d6+5 attack). I'd suggest a 1d10/2d10/3d10 progression for 1st/11th/21st levels. [[User:Pdboddy|Pdboddy]] 13:40, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Balance ==<br />
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* Large sized is ok, you take up more room, and the hill giants lack of racial traits kinda balances out with the higher damage with weapons, maybe however decrease the speed to 5? <br />
* The racial power is very powerful, I think maybe if you took a apporach simmilar to that of the Dragonborns Dragonbreath this could be easily balanced.<br />
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{{4e Power<br />
|name=Crush Underfoot<br />
|owner=Race<br />
|class=Giant<br />
|type=Attack<br />
|usage=Encounter<br />
|flavor=The goblin screamed as you brought your foot up. He got so annoying you decided to put your foot down. Right on top of him.<br />
|actiontype=Standard Action<br />
|range=Meelee<br />
|target=One Medium or smaller creature.<br />
|attack=Strength +2<br />
|defense=Reflex<br />
|hit=1d8 + Strength Modifier damage.<br />
|extra= Increase to +4 and 2d8 + Strength Modifier damage at 11th level, and +5 and 3d8 + Strength Modifier Damage.<br />
}}<br />
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:???...So a miss can cause more damage then a hit? I don't think the to-hit bonus should scale (they will have high strengths already, which will increase as they level), and if it must then +3 at ''Paragon'' and +4 at ''Epic''. But with the strength scores being what they will it is overkill. Overall this is still a kinda dull racial power, what if the target and all creatures within a Close Burst 1 (except for the PC) were knocked Prone? This might make it more intresting and at least a little usable by Ranged classes. As for the "Large" size; nothing done at this level will allow that trait to be balanced, the rest of the rule set for PCs is not designed to incorporate it...it will bring only headaches to DMs not properly prepared to deal with it. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 06:59, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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: Sorry, I fail to see what your problem with the Large Size is, it doesn't really effect anything par the damage of weapons and the close burst. Also not all racial powers are meant to be useful for every single class, your point on the +2 bonus doesn't really stand either, the Dragonborn gets Strength +2 VS. Reflex, yet the three classes given as examples and favored classes of the dragonborn will mean they have a high strength bonus.I meant to drop the miss bit.<br />
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::Its not "my" problem with Large size, its the designers. They feel it is unbalancing therefore they have said no PC races will be Large. That given, it means nothing that is published will ever account for a Large sized PC, requiring DM modification to include. Now as I said the author can leave it, but it is unbalanced, no way around it. Therefore if it stays this article just needs to add the "Design Disclaimer" template to it and that is all. As for the power, well the Dragonborn power is an AoE that effects all creatures (friend and foe), so the tactical issue that comes in play is the fact your going to most likely hit what you breath at, even if its an ally. An attack directed at a single foe dosen't have this issue, and should not be as accurate (or scale slower). Of course if it had a wider effect (such as what I suggested) leaving the high to-hit would be fine. Lastly official racial powers are designed to be useful for all classes. Racial powers should not "pigeon-hole" a Player into a specific role. Really look at all the official racial powers and think about how a melee or ranged character would use it. If you find one that is truely limited to one type please show me, so far they all are equally useable by both types of classes. Now HB racial powers may do this because sometimes a race is just too narrow to be much more then one type or the other, and while WotC would just not create the race, one of your Players may want to play it...so it gets made. Nothing wrong there, just in the spirit it is nice to see racial powers that everyone can enjoy. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 08:08, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: Sorry if I came of a bit snarky, it was not meant to be an attack, I didn't realise they had said this about large races however. and i do see what you mean by racial powers[[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 09:27, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Thats ok, I'm sure I sounded snarky myself. No offense was ever intended, so lets move on. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 12:43, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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=Author=<br />
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:Thank you all, I read through all the comments, and am working on some ideas to improve this race. Sepsis, I still think it's possible to make homebrew rules for Large, so I will not change that... not that I don't see your point. I realize it's against standards, but as a DM, I'll make my own homebrew rules and it should be fine for the purposes of my adventures. I'm working on a couple different ways to make Crush Underfoot less powerful... I should have whipped something up by this time next week! Thanks for your input -- [[User:Absconder|Absconder]]<br />
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::You may want to keep an eye on these Threads: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697035#post18697035 and http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18697330#post18697330 -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 13:55, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::The WOTC boards of places of scum and stupidity. If an actual argument can be made, it can be posted here. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:54, 31 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Wow that answers a lot, an ignorant rant boy. Now I see, another..."I'm smarter then the designers, those morons." type guy. So your opinions really are completly worthless. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:35, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::OK that was just plain rude on my part. I have got to apologize. This is why I hate internet "arguments". I let myself get too angry with you. I should just take a deep breath. I'm willing to disagree, but I shouldn't drop down to the level of insults and such. We don't have to like each other, but we also don't have to resort to mudslinging. Again I am sorry for just being insulting that is beneath me, and I hate to think I would be lumped in that catagory. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 10:05, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::I didn't say a SINGLE THING about the designers. You are either not reading what I said, or are outright lying to make me look bad. In any case, please stop it. I said that the WOTC BOARDS were filled with idiots, which they pretty much are- this is a place where doing basic math gets you shouted down as a "roll-player". This is a place where, when I suggested that Frank and K material be used for 3e games, I had someone openly and graphically fetishize about my death, and have a moderator be totally OK with it, because I was a "dirty munchkin". So yeah. That place sucks. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:22, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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=Large=<br />
Just a few of the reasons why Large does not work in 4e:<br />
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* The question of reach. How much reach do you have naturally? 2 squares? Do having a reach weapon extend that to 4 squares? If you choose to give a large size creature a larger reach, you give them absolutely unprecedented control of the battlefield right from level 1.<br />
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* Flanking. A medium creature has 9 ways of standing adjacent to another medium creature to flank. A large creature has 12 ways of standing adjacent to a medium creature to flank.<br />
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* Being flanked. A medium creature can be flanked from 9 positions by another medium creature. A large creature can be flanked from 12 positions by a medium creature.<br />
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* Mobility. Large creature can't fit through spaces in combat that medium creatures can. (Example: Two medium opponents with 3 squares between them that you need to get past? Well a medium creature can get through there without provoking opportunity attacks. A large creature cannot.)<br />
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* Close attacks are much more versatile and powerful for a large creature than for a medium creature. ''Bursts:'' A medium creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 9 squares, up to 9 targets. A large creature attacks with a Close Burst 1 attack and hits 12 squares, up to 9 targets. Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares. Close burst 3 results in 48 squares versus 63 squares. ''Blasts:'' A medium creature has 16 ways to orient a Close Blast 3. A large creature has 25 ways to orient a Close Blast 3.<br />
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*Large size does have both bonuses and penalties, the mistake should not be made that they balance each other out. Many of these bonuses and penalties apply to melee characters but not ranged characters or ranged characters but not melee character. Furthermore, another 4E PC race design philosophy that Large size breaks is that races are supposed to provide bonuses and not penalties, tell you what you can do and not what you can't. Racial penalties have no place in 4E.<br />
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* Weapon damage (PHB pg.220). The ''Oversized'' racial trait is almost universally considered to be overpowered because of its incredibly significant boost to damage. That's why only Monster races get it and PC races don't. It was even specifically removed from the official PC version Minotaur for this very reason. A Large race effectively gets this exact same bonus to damage.<br />
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For any not wanting to view the forums. -- [[User:Sepsis|Sepsis]] 09:59, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:There's no reason to believe reach would work differently then it would in 3.5, which means a reach weapon is simply "+1 reach". The flanked/being flanked seems to balance out, so hey, that's OK. Mobility is a weakness, yep. That doesn't mean it's unplayable. You, once again, give deliberately misleading yet "accurate" numbers for the close attacks despite me proving them upthread. If a race can't work for ranged characters or is melee only, that's perfectly alright - the 4e races are incredibly pigeon-holed, "melee brute" is no more restrictive then many of the races already are (see: dwarf: cleric, fighter, maaaaybe wizard and paladin). Many of the races already tell you what you "can't do" - you can't, for example, make an effective halfling fighter, or an effective dragonborn wizard. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:18, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:: Wow, your wrong about races and the classes they can or can't be, also how are the number he gives "misleading" they are the correct number I double checked them myself, the points about weapon damage, and races are not meant to have penalties towards certain forms of combat. Just bonuses to a specific type, that are balanced along side the other races [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 12:10, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::How am I wrong? Please explain. The numbers are misleading because you're not subtracting the squares that the creature themselves take up. Generally, you aren't actually hitting anything occupying those squares. That only occurs in the absolute rarest of cases, and should not be counted. Right now, it doesn't appear to have any penalties - indeed, Large size just gives such large bonuses to melee you'd be stupid to play anything but. I fail to see how this is different with, say, Gnomes and the Wizard class. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 12:17, 1 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::This is how you where wrong about the races and classes, you can make a descent (Insert Class Here) with Race X, nearlly everytime, with small creatures being the only ones who may possibly not do as good (though a Halfling Tempest fighter does work). Open the players handbook, choose any race, I bet I could make a viable character of nearlly every class. Now onto close bursts. Using a close burst 1 power a medium creature can target a maximum of 8 creatures. A Large creature can target a maximum of 12. A Close Burst 2 damage a maximum of 24 creatures for a medium sized character and 32 for a large. How is that balanced? OH an just incase you need it ehre a illustration. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 01:18, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<center><br />
[[Image:Example.png]]<br />
</center><br />
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:::::A halfling will never be a "decent" wizard, not if you compare it to a gnome wizard. The gnome wizard will utterly dominate him all the time. We have different definitions of "viable", here. At the very least, if you're not getting a bonus from ability scores to something useful, I'm not counting it as viable - monster defenses scale so fast that you practically need that +1 to hit, or at the very least a boost to your other states. Even then, that doesn't matter. If a race is only good for class X, so long as it's <i>balanced</i> with class X, does that honestly matter?<br />
:::::Now, thanks for your illustration. Let's see what *I* said, earlier up page<br />
::::::QUOTE ME: A Large creature's close burst only takes up 36 squares, but when you remove the squares the creature takes up, it's 32.<br />
::::::QUOTE SEPSIS: Close burst 2 results in 24 squares versus 35 squares.<br />
:::::So no. My math is right, and your "let me draw you an illustration" <i>agrees with what I already said</i>. Yes, I agree that it is bigger, but I'm not entirely convinced that a bigger burst radius is going to make the race overpowered. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:24, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::Indeed it does, I didn't state i t was to agree with sepsis that was jsut me checking it out. Course I look like an idiot now. I still think that it will over power the race however. Also you can make a descent halfling wizard. +2 Dex, +2 Cha right? So thats a wand based wizard or one that uses illusions. Just because it wont have a 20 in Intelligence at 1st level does not make it any less viable then the Gnome Wizard. But this of course is an entirley different conversation for us to have else where ;) [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:51, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::::::Ok... I'm actually going to make a decent balance argument here. Looking at the benefits of large size <i>not including the bonus to damage</i> I want to make that clear, <i>not including the bonus to damage</i>, I think things balance out. You've got reach, which is awesome, but you'll need it in any sort of tight corridor situation as if you're on the front lines in a small hall, you're in big trouble (more enemies can get to you, and allies with reach can't attack past you). You've got bigger bursts, yup - though enemies aiming spells at you have more areas where to aim them at, and it's easier to aim them to hit you. Your bigger squares cause you to get tangled in difficult terrain and opportunity attacks more easily. And in any sort of tight space, you're at a disadvantage or even a liability to your party. Overall, I think the whole "You have 4 squares of area, and +1 reach" part of large is an interesting deal - in some cases it would be good, and in some cases it will be bad. That part, IMO, is the part that's going to be campaign dependent (it's only usable in some campaigns. if the author has a campaign that it is usable in, then we shouldn't change it otherwise). The real problem is the bonus damage. This is where the race can easily become overpowered, and THIS is the real problem with Large size. I don't have a problem if the race is only good for meleers, or only good for people who use strength. The problem is if it becomes too good for them. Even though +2 str is pretty flavorful, it may want to be removed. Just giving the race +2 con, and only +2 con may be appropriate. They're then comparable to warforged stat-wise for a strength-using class, and comparible to dragonborn or half-elves for a charisma one. There are, as far as I know, no classes that get +con to damage except for fighters with axes and maces on SOME of their powers. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 13:01, 2 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
::::::::Though I am no expert in 4e balance and didn't bother to read the whole wall of text above this, one thing to consider is the actual utility of the extra close burst squares. So you have 8 extra squares for a close burst 2. You will still need to actually have enemies in that burst. Being large and, thus, less maneuverable, it may be harder to get in a position where you can even use those extra squares to your advantage. On the other side of the argument, you also gain an increase in the overall size of the burst so you can reach creatures that are farther away from each other than a medium creature could. Reach coupled with close burst 2 allows a fighter (are there even any fighter close burst 2 attacks?) to pin down enemies 2 squares away. Now '''that''' is a powerful ability for a defender and something well worth considering. Playtesting is needed to figure this out. I think it is just too difficult to crunch conceptually. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:53, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::: Another thought occurs. A large creature has a bigger burst; but can a large creature be caught within another burst twice? Or maybe four times? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 10:59, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::: No it cannot, it still only counts as a single target.<br />
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:::::::::::Fighters, as far as I know, have very few bursts larger then 1. There's one or two, but not many. Even then, the bursts larger then 1 tend to move the creatures either closer to or further from the fighter. Overall, it really won't help the fighter lock down more foes for long, as he still can't make opportunity attacks except in melee, and he can't mark someone unless he attacks them. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 11:38, 3 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::: Why are you bringing up Fighters? It does matter what class the race could be optimal in, it matters what class it could be in and how its abbilities could be overpowered with said classes. A Giant Wizard for example can take advantage of the close bursts. [[User:ShadowyFigure|ShadowyFigure]] 11:56, 3 June 2009 (MDT)</div>ShadowyFigure