https://www.dandwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=76.169.169.233&feedformat=atomD&D Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T15:19:43ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.8https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)&diff=172240Talk:Pun-Pun (3.5e Optimized Character Build)2007-11-20T05:06:49Z<p>76.169.169.233: New section: Not to mention...</p>
<hr />
<div>== Posted on the Boards: ==<br />
<br />
This optimized character was taken from the Wizards Boards by permission, the thread related to this spell is: [http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801&page=1&pp=30]<br />
<br />
''Green_Dragon''<br />
<br />
==he scares me==<br />
<br />
let me just say one thing, pun-pun is so good if one were to fight him his CR would be somewhere in the millions, possibly even billions.<br />
<br />
oh, and nice joke and manipulation of abilities and spells<br />
<br />
== Wow... ==<br />
<br />
How long did it take you to think of this?<br />
<br />
== Somthing missing==<br />
I can see one weakness in Pun Pun, he needs Mettle for the save for partial spells that are out there.<br />
<br />
:He can simply grant himself Mettle, Evasion, and anything else that ever shows up in any printed book. No problem there. Alternatively, he'll just grant himself immunity to any effect you could ever create with partial Will/Fortitude spells (poison etc. etc. etc.) --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 03:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== SUPREME Supreme Cleave ==<br />
<br />
Grant Pun-Pun the War Hulk PrC's ability Massive Swing. Since he already has limitless sight and infinite reach (even across planes), you can now use a standard attack action to make one melee attack roll and compare that roll to the AC of every creature you threaten (which is every creature anywhere on any plane). Note that you can be selective about which squares you target, so you can use this for selective genocide to one-hit-kill entire species, or just go ahead and wipe out every living thing everywhere. {{Unsigned|IanUilliam|11:09, 8 January 2007 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
:The question is... Can Pun-Pun do enough damage to kill himself? {{Unsigned|Aarnott|11:19, 8 January 2007 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::Infinite damage verses infinite health.... Hm... This is a very good optimization ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:19, 8 January 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::My heart weeps after seeing such a thing [[User:Flession|Flession]] 10:14, 24 March 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::1-1=0, so Infinate-Infinate still equals 0 (X-X=0, mathmatical fact). {{Unsigned|84.66.55.0|13:31, 19 May 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:::::Then he takes himself down to zero... Hopefully he does not do a strenuous action, otherwise he will be okay ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:29, 28 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::WHOA!!!!! 84.66.55.0 --- Infinity is '''''not''''' a real!! You can not add infinity with the same rules you use to add reals---just like you can not add complex numbers with same the rules as reals. Infinity subtract infinity is '''unknown''', '''NOT''' zero!! &mdash; <span style="color:#002137;">[[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] <small> ([[User_talk:Blue Dragon|talk]])</small></span> 16:21, 31 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Being a mathematician this is very close to my speciality (measure theory and fractional calculus) and actually ''is'' one of my supervisor's topic (descriptive set theory). The first thing you need to understand about infinity is that it is not unique. There are (literally) an infinite number of infinities. The "infinity" which corresponds with the integers is ''much'' smaller than the "infinity" which corresponds with the reals. So if I take R, and sift out all the intergers, I still get infinity. But if I take the intergers and sift out the reals, I delete my whole set, so I'm left with nothing. To follow up on BD, there is nothing wrong with infinity + infinity (the larger "kills" the smaller), the difference is this operation is not ''invertible'' so we have no subtraction. Thirdly to answer Aarnott, Pun-Pun has regeneration, and can always save himself from massive damage, so no. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 19:03, 1 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Note that Pun-Puns HD are infinite in the sense that he can boost them up to any natural number, or lim (a -> inf) HD = inf as a mathematician would put it, where a is the number of actions he takes to boost HD. It means that only if he uses the Infinite Action Loop to boost his HD they truly become infinite. <br />
::And Pun-Pun can't kill himself with a weapon because he is immune to weapon damage and has both Fast Healing and Regeneration. Even if he manages to knock himself out he comes back like the Tarrasque. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 18:11, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Err...==<br />
<br />
What if I shot him with a huge cannon of godly greatness at point blanc range? Would He die then? This Pun-pun thing is crazy. Also, you need a LINE OF SIGHT in order to make a spot check anyway (evem Pun-pun cannot see through a planet...). And, even with limitless ranks, a natural one ALWAYS FAILS. Any you still cant see someone who rolls a natural twenty for their hide check. {{Unsigned|84.66.55.0|13:24, 19 May 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:Incorrect. Pending a house rule, there is no automatic pass or fail for skill checks. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 17:29, 19 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::In many cases (and when I play) a natural 20 is plus a certain number while a natural 1 is minus a certain number. This variant is described in greater detail in the DMG. However, this variant makes it so pun-pun will ''always'' hit and ''always'' kill. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:45, 22 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Gods above a certain rank don't fail on natural 1s and gods above a higher rank (I think it's 16) automatically get the maximum roll on all attacks, checks and saves. [[User:MorkaisChosen|MorkaisChosen]] 03:59, 1 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Ice Assassin? ==<br />
<br />
So, I get this whole Pun-Pun business, but I'm still confounded on one point. The assumption of Pun-Pun's divine rank is depented on his creating the Nut-Puns which is, in turn, dependent on his receiving a divine rank from the god-clones he creates using Ice Assassin. What supplement/thread/board/etc. is this spell/spell-like ability found in? Everything else has a relevant source, but this one is left mysteriously unexplained. --[[User:Rakankou|Rakankou]] 10:38, 29 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:A [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fw Far Corners of the World] article; [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030124a Snow and Ice: Spells of the Frozen Lands]. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 10:50, 29 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Most helpful; thank you. --[[User:Rakankou|Rakankou]] 11:59, 29 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Is a god a "living, breathing" creature as per Ice Assassin? That's debatable. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 03:16, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oddly enough, it doesn't stipulate that the creature to be duplicated need be a living, breathing one; only that the duplicate is a living, breathing copy. Theoretically, you could make a duplicate of an undead, construct, or a non-native outsider. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:08, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Ahh, you're right. The spell is just lovely. Even without Pun-Pun, there are plenty of ways to abuse the spell. The simple fact alone that you can create a copy of someone, which gains all the original's memories, and it is under your command, suddenly puts all knowledge that ever existed at your command. Just command it to tell you what you want to know. The spell doesn't even prevent you from copying people who are already dead, and (arguably) people who are not born yet. The one annoying part, that the copy wants to run away and kill the original, can be easily prevented by commanding it not to. Well, even if the stupid thing does kill the original, you can still use it, but I wonder what happens to the killing urge. Since the critter costs 20,000 gp and 5,000 XP and is very hard to heal, it is actually a waste of ressources to send it out to actually fight someone. I'd rather create a love slave, use it as a decoy for the king who is in my torture chambers, create a duplicate of my son to confuse enemies and paparazzi (remember that you can always command it not to kill him), create a pet archmage, heck, you could even create duplicates of Superman and Batman to finally answer the question of who would win in a duel ...<br />
:::::Another funny fact: It says you can only ''repair'' damage using a certain ritual, but it does not say you can't ''heal'' or ''cure'' it, and that it is immune to Fast Healing and Regeneration. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 17:54, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Those are some good points you bring up, but it does leave one question. In your hypothetical duel between Superman and Batman, how do you plan to get some bit of each of them (one of the material components of Ice Assassin, as per the article linked above)? Furthermore, how is Pun-Pun supposed to go about procuring some bit of a deity with a divine rank of at least one? Or does that come with being a Divine Minion?<br />
<br />
:::::::The easiest way to achieve that is either the Eschew Materials feat or the epic Ignore Material Components. Note that Pun-Pun has unlimited feats from unlimited hit dice. In fact, he can pretty much boost himself to fulfill almost any prerequisite, so he can be assumed to have almost any feat ever published.<br />
:::::::By the way, he does have unlimited hit dice, but I assume these are racial hit dice? Or does he get class levels? --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 23:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== After all ==<br />
<br />
The whole Pun-Pun example should serve as a warning to any game designer out there. The "Manipulate Form" ability was never meant to fall into player hands. But the designers obviously completely underestimated player creativity. Of course there will be a way to get it. So, never ever publish a "do what you want" ability and always check "what is the worst thing that could happen if this falls into the hands of a PC". --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 03:20, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Thankfully, they fixed this build with a errata. It's no longer possible to do what Pun-Pun does... -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 07:07, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Did they really? What did they change? --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 23:19, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Native to Toril ==<br />
<br />
I just realized that to pull off Pun-Pun, the PC has to be native to Toril (i.e. the Forgotten Realms Campaign world). It's right in the Manipulate Forms ability. I wonder whether there is a way to become a "native of Toril" when you're in a different campaign setting. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 18:30, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Divine Minion Wildshape Ability ==<br />
<br />
I was reading the Divine Minion template on the Wizards website and it clearly reads: <br />
<br />
"A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves..."<br />
<br />
Not to mention the under Master of Many Forms it clearly states it requires the Wild Shape CLASS FEATURE, and applying a template to a race makes it a RACIAL ability. If it was open to anyone who can change forms that would have said something like wild shape class feature OR shapechange ability. Otherwise this would open up the class for anything that can shapechange, like a werewolf. I don't think that is what they were thinking of when they wrote up this class.<br />
<br />
Even if you do it, then your effective level for wild shape should be the divine minion level plus the master of many forms level (in this case 4, 1+3=4) and the "as an 11th level druid" should be limited to the specific animals granted by their diety, not to all their shapeshifting. It isn't even a true wildshape ability, since it's limited to a couple of specific animals<br />
<br />
I wouldn't say this was done completely by the rules, but by a creative intrpretation of what CLASS FEATURE means and allowing them to use the "as an 11th level druid" in conjunction with the master of many forms instead of just the divine minion level of 1.<br />
<br />
Here is the source of my information: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a<br />
<br />
== Not to mention... ==<br />
<br />
When you wildshape, you change into a RACE, not a CLASS. WuJen is a class and not a race, so how can you give a WuJen ability to yourself? <br />
<br />
You can change into a cockroach and give yourself the ability to live through a nuke, but you can't shapechange into a wizard and give yourself the scribe scroll ability.</div>76.169.169.233https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)&diff=172236Talk:Pun-Pun (3.5e Optimized Character Build)2007-11-20T04:44:56Z<p>76.169.169.233: New section: Divine Minion Wildshape Ability</p>
<hr />
<div>== Posted on the Boards: ==<br />
<br />
This optimized character was taken from the Wizards Boards by permission, the thread related to this spell is: [http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801&page=1&pp=30]<br />
<br />
''Green_Dragon''<br />
<br />
==he scares me==<br />
<br />
let me just say one thing, pun-pun is so good if one were to fight him his CR would be somewhere in the millions, possibly even billions.<br />
<br />
oh, and nice joke and manipulation of abilities and spells<br />
<br />
== Wow... ==<br />
<br />
How long did it take you to think of this?<br />
<br />
== Somthing missing==<br />
I can see one weakness in Pun Pun, he needs Mettle for the save for partial spells that are out there.<br />
<br />
:He can simply grant himself Mettle, Evasion, and anything else that ever shows up in any printed book. No problem there. Alternatively, he'll just grant himself immunity to any effect you could ever create with partial Will/Fortitude spells (poison etc. etc. etc.) --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 03:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== SUPREME Supreme Cleave ==<br />
<br />
Grant Pun-Pun the War Hulk PrC's ability Massive Swing. Since he already has limitless sight and infinite reach (even across planes), you can now use a standard attack action to make one melee attack roll and compare that roll to the AC of every creature you threaten (which is every creature anywhere on any plane). Note that you can be selective about which squares you target, so you can use this for selective genocide to one-hit-kill entire species, or just go ahead and wipe out every living thing everywhere. {{Unsigned|IanUilliam|11:09, 8 January 2007 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
:The question is... Can Pun-Pun do enough damage to kill himself? {{Unsigned|Aarnott|11:19, 8 January 2007 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::Infinite damage verses infinite health.... Hm... This is a very good optimization ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:19, 8 January 2007 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::My heart weeps after seeing such a thing [[User:Flession|Flession]] 10:14, 24 March 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::1-1=0, so Infinate-Infinate still equals 0 (X-X=0, mathmatical fact). {{Unsigned|84.66.55.0|13:31, 19 May 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:::::Then he takes himself down to zero... Hopefully he does not do a strenuous action, otherwise he will be okay ''':)'''. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:29, 28 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::WHOA!!!!! 84.66.55.0 --- Infinity is '''''not''''' a real!! You can not add infinity with the same rules you use to add reals---just like you can not add complex numbers with same the rules as reals. Infinity subtract infinity is '''unknown''', '''NOT''' zero!! &mdash; <span style="color:#002137;">[[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] <small> ([[User_talk:Blue Dragon|talk]])</small></span> 16:21, 31 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Being a mathematician this is very close to my speciality (measure theory and fractional calculus) and actually ''is'' one of my supervisor's topic (descriptive set theory). The first thing you need to understand about infinity is that it is not unique. There are (literally) an infinite number of infinities. The "infinity" which corresponds with the integers is ''much'' smaller than the "infinity" which corresponds with the reals. So if I take R, and sift out all the intergers, I still get infinity. But if I take the intergers and sift out the reals, I delete my whole set, so I'm left with nothing. To follow up on BD, there is nothing wrong with infinity + infinity (the larger "kills" the smaller), the difference is this operation is not ''invertible'' so we have no subtraction. Thirdly to answer Aarnott, Pun-Pun has regeneration, and can always save himself from massive damage, so no. --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 19:03, 1 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Note that Pun-Puns HD are infinite in the sense that he can boost them up to any natural number, or lim (a -> inf) HD = inf as a mathematician would put it, where a is the number of actions he takes to boost HD. It means that only if he uses the Infinite Action Loop to boost his HD they truly become infinite. <br />
::And Pun-Pun can't kill himself with a weapon because he is immune to weapon damage and has both Fast Healing and Regeneration. Even if he manages to knock himself out he comes back like the Tarrasque. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 18:11, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Err...==<br />
<br />
What if I shot him with a huge cannon of godly greatness at point blanc range? Would He die then? This Pun-pun thing is crazy. Also, you need a LINE OF SIGHT in order to make a spot check anyway (evem Pun-pun cannot see through a planet...). And, even with limitless ranks, a natural one ALWAYS FAILS. Any you still cant see someone who rolls a natural twenty for their hide check. {{Unsigned|84.66.55.0|13:24, 19 May 2007 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:Incorrect. Pending a house rule, there is no automatic pass or fail for skill checks. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 17:29, 19 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::In many cases (and when I play) a natural 20 is plus a certain number while a natural 1 is minus a certain number. This variant is described in greater detail in the DMG. However, this variant makes it so pun-pun will ''always'' hit and ''always'' kill. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:45, 22 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Gods above a certain rank don't fail on natural 1s and gods above a higher rank (I think it's 16) automatically get the maximum roll on all attacks, checks and saves. [[User:MorkaisChosen|MorkaisChosen]] 03:59, 1 June 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Ice Assassin? ==<br />
<br />
So, I get this whole Pun-Pun business, but I'm still confounded on one point. The assumption of Pun-Pun's divine rank is depented on his creating the Nut-Puns which is, in turn, dependent on his receiving a divine rank from the god-clones he creates using Ice Assassin. What supplement/thread/board/etc. is this spell/spell-like ability found in? Everything else has a relevant source, but this one is left mysteriously unexplained. --[[User:Rakankou|Rakankou]] 10:38, 29 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:A [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fw Far Corners of the World] article; [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030124a Snow and Ice: Spells of the Frozen Lands]. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 10:50, 29 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Most helpful; thank you. --[[User:Rakankou|Rakankou]] 11:59, 29 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Is a god a "living, breathing" creature as per Ice Assassin? That's debatable. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 03:16, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oddly enough, it doesn't stipulate that the creature to be duplicated need be a living, breathing one; only that the duplicate is a living, breathing copy. Theoretically, you could make a duplicate of an undead, construct, or a non-native outsider. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:08, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Ahh, you're right. The spell is just lovely. Even without Pun-Pun, there are plenty of ways to abuse the spell. The simple fact alone that you can create a copy of someone, which gains all the original's memories, and it is under your command, suddenly puts all knowledge that ever existed at your command. Just command it to tell you what you want to know. The spell doesn't even prevent you from copying people who are already dead, and (arguably) people who are not born yet. The one annoying part, that the copy wants to run away and kill the original, can be easily prevented by commanding it not to. Well, even if the stupid thing does kill the original, you can still use it, but I wonder what happens to the killing urge. Since the critter costs 20,000 gp and 5,000 XP and is very hard to heal, it is actually a waste of ressources to send it out to actually fight someone. I'd rather create a love slave, use it as a decoy for the king who is in my torture chambers, create a duplicate of my son to confuse enemies and paparazzi (remember that you can always command it not to kill him), create a pet archmage, heck, you could even create duplicates of Superman and Batman to finally answer the question of who would win in a duel ...<br />
:::::Another funny fact: It says you can only ''repair'' damage using a certain ritual, but it does not say you can't ''heal'' or ''cure'' it, and that it is immune to Fast Healing and Regeneration. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 17:54, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Those are some good points you bring up, but it does leave one question. In your hypothetical duel between Superman and Batman, how do you plan to get some bit of each of them (one of the material components of Ice Assassin, as per the article linked above)? Furthermore, how is Pun-Pun supposed to go about procuring some bit of a deity with a divine rank of at least one? Or does that come with being a Divine Minion?<br />
<br />
:::::::The easiest way to achieve that is either the Eschew Materials feat or the epic Ignore Material Components. Note that Pun-Pun has unlimited feats from unlimited hit dice. In fact, he can pretty much boost himself to fulfill almost any prerequisite, so he can be assumed to have almost any feat ever published.<br />
:::::::By the way, he does have unlimited hit dice, but I assume these are racial hit dice? Or does he get class levels? --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 23:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== After all ==<br />
<br />
The whole Pun-Pun example should serve as a warning to any game designer out there. The "Manipulate Form" ability was never meant to fall into player hands. But the designers obviously completely underestimated player creativity. Of course there will be a way to get it. So, never ever publish a "do what you want" ability and always check "what is the worst thing that could happen if this falls into the hands of a PC". --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 03:20, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Thankfully, they fixed this build with a errata. It's no longer possible to do what Pun-Pun does... -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 07:07, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Did they really? What did they change? --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 23:19, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Native to Toril ==<br />
<br />
I just realized that to pull off Pun-Pun, the PC has to be native to Toril (i.e. the Forgotten Realms Campaign world). It's right in the Manipulate Forms ability. I wonder whether there is a way to become a "native of Toril" when you're in a different campaign setting. --[[User:Mkill|Mkill]] 18:30, 3 July 2007 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Divine Minion Wildshape Ability ==<br />
<br />
I was reading the Divine Minion template on the Wizards website and it clearly reads: <br />
<br />
"A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves..."<br />
<br />
Not to mention the under Master of Many Forms it clearly states it requires the Wild Shape CLASS FEATURE, and applying a template to a race makes it a RACIAL ability. If it was open to anyone who can change forms that would have said something like wild shape class feature OR shapechange ability. Otherwise this would open up the class for anything that can shapechange, like a werewolf. I don't think that is what they were thinking of when they wrote up this class.<br />
<br />
Even if you do it, then your effective level for wild shape should be the divine minion level plus the master of many forms level (in this case 4, 1+3=4) and the "as an 11th level druid" should be limited to the specific animals granted by their diety, not to all their shapeshifting. It isn't even a true wildshape ability, since it's limited to a couple of specific animals<br />
<br />
I wouldn't say this was done completely by the rules, but by a creative intrpretation of what CLASS FEATURE means and allowing them to use the "as an 11th level druid" in conjunction with the master of many forms instead of just the divine minion level of 1.<br />
<br />
Here is the source of my information: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a</div>76.169.169.233